Using a more defensive tactic than your opponent, away from home, is detrimental to win rate. It is fine if you want to decrease the chance to concede goals, but it does not increase the chance of winning or scoring points overall. Check more about that in the video below.
Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking.
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking. Expand
How you determine if you are an underdog? because of the reports from board and fans or press? or looking at their team and comparing?
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking. Expand But we could have seen tactics with an "Attacking" mentality concede fewer goals than other "Balanced" tactics. After some testing of my own, I have found what is the best mentality in order: (in terms of PPG)
1. Attacking 2. Positive 3. Very Attacking 4. Balanced 5. Defensive 6. Cautious 7. Very Defensive
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking. Expand
Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results).
ZaZ said: Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results). Expand
I am aware that we can build a defensive tactic with "Very Attacking" mentality for instance. Mentality is a complex matter. But u can easily see on the less conceded tactics that balanced is dominant. Indeed, the best "GD" tactic is on balanced. The question that remains is the same from the video.
dzek said: But we could have seen tactics with an "Attacking" mentality concede fewer goals than other "Balanced" tactics. After some testing of my own, I have found what is the best mentality in order: (in terms of PPG)
1. Attacking 2. Positive 3. Very Attacking 4. Balanced 5. Defensive 6. Cautious 7. Very Defensive Expand
I meant by actually playing the game. I found out that balanced is way superior and attacking is situational. But this is just my opinion, of course.
letsgo9 said: I meant by actually playing the game. I found out that balanced is way superior and attacking is situational. But this is just my opinion, of course. Expand That may be the case, yes. My view is that all mentalities can work but the more increased the more you can expect from your team at home and away matches(goals, shots etc). The secret here is to balance each mentality accordingly which for me is the bet.
Another thing that seems to be true in FM is that the more you invite pressure the more goals your team will concede.
ZaZ said: Using a more defensive tactic than your opponent, away from home, is detrimental to win rate. It is fine if you want to decrease the chance to concede goals, but it does not increase the chance of winning or scoring points overall. Check more about that in the video below.
Expand
Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Delicious said: Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects! Expand
Yeah, this was the first thing that should've be considered... but 4222 probably beating any tactic this year
Delicious said: Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects! Expand
The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
ZaZ said: The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home. Expand
So is the FM Arena RNG in a multiverse! Afterwall, both tactic "are" 58 points !
Great work and sound discoveries backed by evidence and a lot of trials. I think Max should have mentioned the neutral and home venue trials conducted that you showed here Zaz would have added even more certainty and credibility.
Zeyad said: Great work and sound discoveries backed by evidence and a lot of trials. I think Max should have mentioned the neutral and home venue trials conducted that you showed here Zaz would have added even more certainty and credibility.
Well done to both of you! Expand
I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season. (If anyone is interested, players have peak performance with low fatigue, playing worse when they are fresh or becoming fatigued, and even worst when they are fatigued.)
ZaZ said: I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season. Expand
You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them without an external tool or the in game editor. Similar to condition
Zeyad said: You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them without an external tool on the in game editor. Similar to condition Expand
I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM.
Zeyad said: You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them withuot an external tool on the in game editor. Similar to condition Expand Negative number (-500) here means “fresh” and “need rest” (601 - 1000)
ZaZ said: I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM. Expand
True. Though I personally think a lot of features are obsecure in FM especially when it comes to match performance. Fatigue is just another one I started considering it heavily in my rotation after FM-Arena's condition and morale tests. I think these player parameters even when increased by a little bit affect our results a lot more than we think
ZaZ said: The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home. Expand
I didn't saw that from the video, maybe i went blind, can you explain me how you guys setuped it? Because to me something seem off, i mean :
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future.
Delicious said: I didn't saw that from the video, maybe i went blind, can you explain me how you guys setuped it? Because to me something seem off, i mean :
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future. Expand
Using a more defensive tactic than your opponent, away from home, is detrimental to win rate. It is fine if you want to decrease the chance to concede goals, but it does not increase the chance of winning or scoring points overall. Check more about that in the video below.
Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking.
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking.
How you determine if you are an underdog? because of the reports from board and fans or press? or looking at their team and comparing?
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking.
But we could have seen tactics with an "Attacking" mentality concede fewer goals than other "Balanced" tactics.
After some testing of my own, I have found what is the best mentality in order:
(in terms of PPG)
1. Attacking
2. Positive
3. Very Attacking
4. Balanced
5. Defensive
6. Cautious
7. Very Defensive
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking.
Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results).
ZaZ said: Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results).
I am aware that we can build a defensive tactic with "Very Attacking" mentality for instance. Mentality is a complex matter. But u can easily see on the less conceded tactics that balanced is dominant. Indeed, the best "GD" tactic is on balanced. The question that remains is the same from the video.
dzek said: But we could have seen tactics with an "Attacking" mentality concede fewer goals than other "Balanced" tactics.
After some testing of my own, I have found what is the best mentality in order:
(in terms of PPG)
1. Attacking
2. Positive
3. Very Attacking
4. Balanced
5. Defensive
6. Cautious
7. Very Defensive
I meant by actually playing the game. I found out that balanced is way superior and attacking is situational. But this is just my opinion, of course.
letsgo9 said: I meant by actually playing the game. I found out that balanced is way superior and attacking is situational. But this is just my opinion, of course.
That may be the case, yes. My view is that all mentalities can work but the more increased the more you can expect from your team at home and away matches(goals, shots etc). The secret here is to balance each mentality accordingly which for me is the bet.
Another thing that seems to be true in FM is that the more you invite pressure the more goals your team will concede.
ZaZ said: Using a more defensive tactic than your opponent, away from home, is detrimental to win rate. It is fine if you want to decrease the chance to concede goals, but it does not increase the chance of winning or scoring points overall. Check more about that in the video below.
Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects!
Delicious said: Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects!
Yeah, this was the first thing that should've be considered... but 4222 probably beating any tactic this year
Delicious said: Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects!
The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
ZaZ said: The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
Afterwall, both tactic "are" 58 points !
So is the FM Arena RNG in a multiverse!
Amazing job @ZaZ ! Thank you for this
Great work and sound discoveries backed by evidence and a lot of trials. I think Max should have mentioned the neutral and home venue trials conducted that you showed here Zaz would have added even more certainty and credibility.
Well done to both of you!
Zeyad said: Great work and sound discoveries backed by evidence and a lot of trials. I think Max should have mentioned the neutral and home venue trials conducted that you showed here Zaz would have added even more certainty and credibility.
Well done to both of you!
I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season. (If anyone is interested, players have peak performance with low fatigue, playing worse when they are fresh or becoming fatigued, and even worst when they are fatigued.)
ZaZ said: I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season.
You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them without an external tool or the in game editor. Similar to condition
Zeyad said: You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them without an external tool on the in game editor. Similar to condition
I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM.
Zeyad said: You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them withuot an external tool on the in game editor. Similar to condition
Negative number (-500) here means “fresh” and “need rest” (601 - 1000)
ZaZ said: I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM.
True. Though I personally think a lot of features are obsecure in FM especially when it comes to match performance. Fatigue is just another one
I started considering it heavily in my rotation after FM-Arena's condition and morale tests. I think these player parameters even when increased by a little bit affect our results a lot more than we think
dzek said: Negative number (-500) here means “fresh” and “need rest” (601 - 1000)
cool so it's the other way around
ZaZ said: The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
I didn't saw that from the video, maybe i went blind, can you explain me how you guys setuped it? Because to me something seem off, i mean :
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future.
Delicious said: I didn't saw that from the video, maybe i went blind, can you explain me how you guys setuped it? Because to me something seem off, i mean :
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future.
He explains at minute 2:55.
ZaZ said: He explains at minute 2:55.
Thanks!