Plagiarism

by Jeffdekker, Nov 10, 2022

This kind of shitstorm remind me something btw...

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Bogeyman said: ok, show me that tactic he created years ago... I want to see it.

It's just what he told me at the time. Just remember at the time I was using zaz 4.0 and then a few weeks later similar shape formation come out with the same shape formation and spoke to him about it and that's the response I got.

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Metal said: It's just what he told me at the time.

Ohhh, is it that simple... you can just say "I created it long time ago" and it's over?

Then what we discuss here MakeSure also can say "I created it long time ago" and it should be over.

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Bogeyman said: Ohhh, is it that simple... you can just say "I created it long time ago" and it's over?

Then what we discuss here MakeSure also can say "I created it long time ago" and it should be over.


It's over

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Bogeyman said: Ohhh, is it that simple... you can just say I created it long time ago and it's over?

Then what we discuss here MakeSure also can say "I created it long time ago" and it should be over.


That's the truth. I made it in FM11 when I played with Sevilla.:goofy:

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MakeSuRE said: That's the truth. I made it in FM11 when I played with Sevilla.:goofy:

If it's your tactic it's all good, but I vividly remember you released a tactic which had crazy results and we found out you saved and reloaded over 79 times so forgive me if I found the westhammer4231 suspicious

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I don't think it is necessary to credit the "original" tactic creator, that should be left optional to the "new/improved" tactic creator.
If someone takes a tactic and makes it better, what even is the point to credit the original tactic?
I won't go there (and neither would most casual FM players) to get the original tactic which performs worse than the new tactic made by the "new" creator.
If someone's edited tactic is better than the original then that's it.
Want to be recognized as the X tactic creator? Then improve that tactic so nobody can edit and make it better.

( Thank god there is no downvote button on FM-Arena =]] )

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Metal said: If it's your tactic it's all good, but I vividly remember you released a tactic which had crazy results and we found out you saved and reloaded over 79 times so forgive me if I found the westhammer4231 suspicious

Here's applause for you, our hardworking netwatch officer.

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Guys, lighten up. We are really here to collaborate not to fight. Fighting will stop our progress. Collaboration will lead to advancement. I appreciate all progress and accept that we all need to see failures to get there. Please appreciate everyone is trying as the starting point.

Take accusations off line through DMs the way described earlier. Please don't bring them all to the thread for open discussion.

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ZaZ said: Look, the discussion of plagiarism is nice and all, but it's not the type of matter that should be solved by fighting and making the issue public. My suggestion to handle those situations is to first contact the person with DM to make sure they know there is a similar tactic, and only if the issue is not solved people should bring it to the admins through the proper thread that was created. There is absolutely no need to bring issues to the admins if they can be solved with a simple DM to the user, which anyone can do.

You're just a member like everyone else right, so you all people shouldn't be preaching about how to go through the correct channels, guidelines and regulations on how to go about reporting cases of plagiarism talking about doing things privately, especially when you yourself have publicly called out other tacticians for simply using your set pieces and not giving you credit.

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Metal said: You're just a member like everyone else right, so you all people shouldn't be preaching about how to go through the correct channels, guidelines and regulations on how to go about reporting cases of plagiarism talking about doing things privately, especially when you yourself have publicly called out other tacticians for simply using your set pieces and not giving you credit.

When someone does a tweak to their tactics, like version 2.0, and the only difference is that they copied the set pieces from mine, then I believe credits should be given, like "Changed to the tactics used by ZaZ". I don't know why that sounds so absurd to you.

Anyway, I play FM for fun, not to get stressed, and I believe you are all blowing this out of proportion and making the environment uncomfortable to everyone. Users are also responsible for keeping the page enjoyable. There are proper channels to deal with issues, and if you don't use those channels, then you are becoming another issue that people have to deal. Remember that no one is saying the problem shouldn't be addressed, we are just telling to solve the problem without creating chaos in the page.

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ZaZ said: When someone does a tweak to their tactics, like version 2.0, and the only difference is that they copied the set pieces from mine, then I believe credits should be given, like "Changed to the tactics used by ZaZ". I don't know why that sounds so absurd to you.

Anyway, I play FM for fun, not to get stressed, and I believe you are all blowing this out of proportion and making the environment uncomfortable to everyone. Users are also responsible for keeping the page enjoyable. There are proper channels to deal with issues, and if you don't use those channels, then you are becoming another issue that people have to deal. Remember that no one is saying the problem shouldn't be addressed, we are just telling to solve the problem without creating chaos in the page.


Copying Set pieces or actually copying entire tactic with the same TI for 1 slight change, is not the same.

I thought this was a proper channel to deal with it? I understand you saying not on the page, but I had no clue where to address it, when Zippo called it out I did, we need to address this, it's making people believe a tactic someone made can be succesful while being completely copied from someone else.

That means you're not just lying to yourself, but you're lying to a community, and that imo is not done

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ZaZ said: When someone does a tweak to their tactics, like version 2.0, and the only difference is that they copied the set pieces from mine, then I believe credits should be given, like "Changed to the tactics used by ZaZ". I don't know why that sounds so absurd to you.

Anyway, I play FM for fun, not to get stressed, and I believe you are all blowing this out of proportion and making the environment uncomfortable to everyone. Users are also responsible for keeping the page enjoyable. There are proper channels to deal with issues, and if you don't use those channels, then you are becoming another issue that people have to deal. Remember that no one is saying the problem shouldn't be addressed, we are just telling to solve the problem without creating chaos in the page.


It doesn't sound absurd, in fact I backed you up on that when people were doing that, but don't be a hypocrite and act like it's a sin to publicly call out plagiarism without giving credit when you complained about a similar issue which was even such as set piece routine in public.

I know someone who has stopped producing content for fm within the community due to several plagiarisers using their ideas and not giving credit. I'd rather make a few people feel uncomfortable than see another gifted creator stop producing content because they are sick and tired of seeing their hard work stolen

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Jeffdekker said: Copying Set pieces or actually copying entire tactic with the same TI for 1 slight change, is not the same.

I thought this was a proper channel to deal with it? I understand you saying not on the page, but I had no clue where to address it, when Zippo called it out I did, we need to address this, it's making people believe a tactic someone made can be succesful while being completely copied from someone else.

That means you're not just lying to yourself, but you're lying to a community, and that imo is not done


I was answering to what the other member said, not talking about subject of this thread.


Metal said: It doesn't sound absurd, in fact I backed you up on that when people were doing that, but don't be a hypocrite and act like it's a sin to publicly call out plagiarism without giving credit when you complained about a similar issue which was even such as set piece routine in public.

I know someone who has stopped producing content for fm within the community due to several plagiarisers using their ideas and not giving credit. I'd rather make a few people feel uncomfortable than see another gifted creator stop producing content because they are sick and tired of seeing their hard work stolen


Like I said before, I support addressing the issue, but I think it's taking a proportion bigger than it should. We don't even know if Knap copied him or if he copied Knap, so it's a bit harsh to bring this to public before any investigation. Talking to the guy via DM could have solved the problem without creating much chaos.

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ZaZ said: I was answering to what the other member said, not talking about subject of this thread.




Like I said before, I support addressing the issue, but I think it's taking a proportion bigger than it should. We don't even know if Knap copied him or if he copied Knap, so it's a bit harsh to bring this to public before any investigation. Talking to the guy via DM could have solved the problem without creating much chaos.


What's the difference between this case and this https://fm-arena.com/thread/2707-please-help-us-to-establish-rules/#comment-14963 ?

Illuminate me please.

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Delicious said: What's the difference between this case and this https://fm-arena.com/thread/2707-please-help-us-to-establish-rules/#comment-14963 ?

Illuminate me please.


The post you are linking is a suggestion, and it has no power because I'm not staff from this site. The procedure adopted by the mods was the one described here, which states that any suspect of plagiarism should be brought to this section. However, people started bashing the mod for asking to post in the proper place, and instead started saying very rude stuff like "this page should be shut down". Do you understand the problem?

The incident took huge proportions just because @Zippo asked the creator to post in the right section. After that, people started bashing me just because I asked them to solve the problem internally instead of creating a huge fuss. Most people don't appreciate watching free drama on internet, and that's what this case became. It could have been solved via DM between users and a mod after the issue was reported. Again, remember that I'm not staff and my opinion has no effect on the way FM-Arena solves issues like that.

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ZaZ said: The post you are linking is a suggestion, and it has no power because I'm not staff from this site. The procedure adopted by the mods was the one described here, which states that any suspect of plagiarism should be brought to this section. However, people started bashing the mod for asking to post in the proper place, and instead started saying very rude stuff like "this page should be shut down". Do you understand the problem?

The incident took huge proportions just because @Zippo asked the creator to post in the right section. After that, people started bashing me just because I asked them to solve the problem internally instead of creating a huge fuss. Most people don't appreciate watching free drama on internet, and that's what this case became. It could have been solved via DM between users and a mod after the issue was reported. Again, remember that I'm not staff and my opinion has no effect on the way FM-Arena solves issues like that.


It seriously feels when the stuff is about your "shit" you act in a way when it's not you ask for private "DM", If you were that kind why you didn't ask zippo to do that on private? I know that things like that would just create dramas,that's was my whole point.

But once people feels there is something wrong,what do you gonna do?

Maybe you are not a member of the "staff" but you know there are doubts around you as well?

What we gonna do then? We need ispiration!

Sorry if i am dumping on you but that thing really made my day.

On the matter:

tactics are pretty the same 1 option and some rules of CWB are different. No doubts. And one player difference on Sp's.

@MakeSuRE My boy, where did you get the ispiration to create such tactic?
Tell us the story behind it.


@ZaZ tell us the story and where and how you get ispiration for Water?


Yes, i am trolling you, maybe with some of this stupid "ispiration" medicine you gonna understand any better

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Delicious said: It seriously feels when the stuff is about your "shit" you act in a way when it's not you ask for private "DM", If you were that kind why you didn't ask zippo to do that on private? I know that things like that would just create dramas,that's was my whole point.

because when he did that there weren't these rules - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2708-welcome-please-read-this-first/

the rules above was introduced recently and if you didn't notice them than it's your problem

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Grimlock said: because when he did that there weren't these rules - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2708-welcome-please-read-this-first/

the rules above was introduced recently and if you didn't notice it than it's your problem


Which rules are you talking about? I don't know if that's me being blind or you trying to act like a smartass being even more blind then me. Can you please understand on your own or if you need any further explanation ask for them and i will be pleased to give them to you.

:)

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@Delicious How about you stop being a conspiracy theorist and stop acting like a total ass towards reputable creators? They're currently #1 and #2 in the tables, I don't see any harm towards them contributing, there's only so many formations you can do, some tactics are bound to be similar. If  you want them compared to Knaps or others, upload them yourself with proper credit so they can be compared and tested then.

Besides, @ZaZ  has been calmer and way nicer to you than you deserve.

You're being a clown, stop being hostile, enjoy the game, enjoy the tactics, if you don't like it, leave.

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Delicious said: Which rules are you talking about?

I'll put a picture for you if you find it's difficult to find a post

this section and the rules below were introduced just 3 days ago so when ZaZ was solving his issue with plagiarism there weren't any rules how to do that


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Delicious said: It seriously feels when the stuff is about your "shit" you act in a way when it's not you ask for private "DM", If you were that kind why you didn't ask zippo to do that on private? I know that things like that would just create dramas,that's was my whole point.

Maybe you are not a member of the "staff" but you know there are doubts around you as well?

What we gonna do then? We need ispiration!

Sorry if i am dumping on you but that thing really made my day.

On the matter:

tactics are pretty the same 1 option and some rules of CWB are different. No doubts. And one player difference on Sp's.

@MakeSuRE My boy, where did you get the ispiration to create such tactic?
Tell us the story behind it.


@ZaZ tell us the story and where and how you get ispiration for Water?


Yes, i am trolling you, maybe with some of this stupid "ispiration" medice you gonna understand any better


To be short, I think you should calm down. It makes zero sense that you try to make this a conflict between you and me, when the issue has nothing to do with either of us. I accept your opinion that tactics are too similar and the issue should be investigated, and I just gave my opinion on how I think the case should be handled. Divergence in opinions is not a problem. The problem is when you try to make this personal and attack me for no apparent reason. Again, I think you should calm down.

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Grimlock said: https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/14970/

https://fm-arena.com/thread/2708-welcome-please-read-this-first/


Let it. It's clear you can't read or understand any points.


Muukzor said: @Delicious How about you stop being a conspiracy theorist and stop acting like a total ass towards reputable creators? They're currently #1 and #2 in the tables, I don't see any harm towards them contributing, there's only so many formations you can do, some tactics are bound to be similar. If  you want them compared to Knaps or others, upload them yourself with proper credit so they can be compared and tested then.

Besides, @ZaZ  has been calmer and way nicer to you than you deserve.

You're being a clown, stop being hostile, enjoy the game, enjoy the tactics, if you don't like it, leave.


I don't understand if you fail the part to understand or something.

You made your self being a clown as well with just this post,welcome to the circus i guess?

Gonna make a little recap for you people:

https://fm-arena.com/thread/2707-please-help-us-to-establish-rules/

I don't think you do undestand any on my points. I couldn't careless about plagiarism and whole this whole pilar of shit. I didn't like the way @AlexJV was treated, and i failed to understand Zaz's Behavior as well, he could say the same thing he said in here.

I coudln't even careless if @MakeSuRE copied/pasta the tactic, he showed that he worked on it since FM22 and he went to his own process in order to achieve his results.

My whole point if you (Admin) use "doubts" like evidence, people gonna be encouraged to act likewise and if you write things like "ispiration-guide line" you(zaz) should understand the f**k you even proposed,because if we follow this guide-line, we for sure should put mention/credits to knaps everywhere,because he did created/made shapes like an industry.

And today the shitstorm hitted because those tactics looks pretty identical.

If you want to act smartass, at least learn to how do it.


Welcome to my circus i needed another clown.


Grimlock said: I'll put a picture for you if you find it's difficult to find a post

this section and the rules below were introduced just 3 days ago so when ZaZ was solving his issue with plagiarism there weren't any rules how to do that




I guess you are the next that joined my circus. Do you really fail to see what is above? or what?

ZaZ said: To be short, I think you should calm down. It makes zero sense that you try to make this a conflict between you and me, when the issue has nothing to do with either of us. I accept your opinion that tactics are too similar and the issue should be investigated, and I just gave my opinion on how I think the case should be handled. Divergence in opinions is not a problem. The problem is when you try to make this personal and attack me for no apparent reason. Again, I think you should calm down.

I will use numbers i guess.

1) I don't think the tactics should be even investigate,because to me Makesure showed that he worked on the tactic since FM22.

2)If you want to act like a twat do it, but you know my whole point about the matter because i've already stated it. Can't seem you were more sensitive on something you were involved and here you came with "go resolve dms"?

3)Why should i put it personal on a forum that support you? I was just trying to make you realize that if you wanna for real follow those "ispiration guide-line" the forum will get hitted by a shitstorm. If it was personal believe me i would just hit you with something else,for sure not discussing about a matter that is wasting everyone time.

Hope you do understand now.

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ZaZ said: We don't even know if Knap copied him or if he copied Knap

HOW DARE U!:goofy: :goofy: :goofy:

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Delicious said: It seriously feels when the stuff is about your "shit" you act in a way when it's not you ask for private "DM", If you were that kind why you didn't ask zippo to do that on private? I know that things like that would just create dramas,that's was my whole point.

But once people feels there is something wrong,what do you gonna do?

Maybe you are not a member of the "staff" but you know there are doubts around you as well?

What we gonna do then? We need ispiration!

Sorry if i am dumping on you but that thing really made my day.

On the matter:

tactics are pretty the same 1 option and some rules of CWB are different. No doubts. And one player difference on Sp's.

@MakeSuRE My boy, where did you get the ispiration to create such tactic?
Tell us the story behind it.


@ZaZ tell us the story and where and how you get ispiration for Water?


Yes, i am trolling you, maybe with some of this stupid "ispiration" medicine you gonna understand any better


I spent half of my free time testing different combinations of roles and instructions, and at the time when it finally showed some good stuff, witch hunters came and sentenced me to death. Which kind of story would u like to hear?
Or, set rules that each tactic should be attcached with a STORY once it was uploaded online.
Gathered a private meeting, directly shouted about plagiarism and made a mess, what a dog for xxxx. Have u been paid? Tell me the STORY and I might wanna be a guard dog too if the price is good.

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MakeSuRE said: I spent half of my free time testing different combinations of roles and instructions, and at the time when it finally showed some good stuff, witch hunters came and sentenced me to death. Which kind of story would u like to hear?
Or, set rules that each tactic should be attcached with a STORY once it was uploaded online.
Gathered a private meeting, directly shouted about plagiarism and made a mess, what a dog for xxxx. Have u been paid? Tell me the STORY and I might wanna be a guard dog too if the price is good.


Dude,literally if you read the post, you will noticed/understand that i was just making fun about how zaz used "ispiration" as a guide-line to credit players and if you spent more then 3 minutes more to read the last post you would notice i couldn't careless about everything on this matter,to me (i am none), case was solved when you showed that you worked on the tactic since FM22, personally i wouldn't even care if you did yestarday.

And i even quoted you multiple times on the more in deepth explanation. If you fail to understand what "trolling" means, i don't know what to say.

I mean if we want to talk serious on the matter the 2 tactics are really identical, how you both reached this state is your story, there is no tribunal(or it's not even clear why a similar post was made on another case being public).
And now i do understand that even my suggestion to let a community resolve things was a fail as well. Since the dogs fight went out of hand after few post.

But really you guys seem so tight that if you gonna fart something funny gonna happens.

Btw my circus is still looking for staff,if you are interested let me know i will protect you like a son! My clowns are really important to me.

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Delicious said: Dude,literally if you read the post, you will noticed/understand that i was just making fun about how zaz used "ispiration" as a guide-line to credit players and if you spent more then 3 minutes more to read the last post you would notice i couldn't careless about everything on this matter,to me (i am none), case was solved when you showed that you worked on the tactic since FM22, personally i wouldn't even care if you did yestarday.

And i even quoted you multiple times on the more in deepth explanation. If you fail to understand what "trolling" means, i don't know what to say.

I mean if we want to talk serious on the matter the 2 tactics are really identical, how you both reached this state is your story, there is no tribunal(or it's not even clear why a similar post was made on another case being public).
And now i do understand that even my suggestion to let a community resolve things was a fail as well. Since the dogs fight went out of hand after few post.

But really you guys seem so tight that if you gonna fart something funny gonna happens.

Btw my circus is still looking for staff,if you are interested let me know i will protect you like a son! My clowns are really important to me.


You quoted so I have to answer whatever you asked? Sorry I am a poor blind man so I only see what makes me uncomfortable, especially not in my native language.
In fact, I don't care all the stuffs you guys went through these two days. I just make, test and adjust what I like to show in the game panel. If someone wants the 1st place, just go and get it.
Putting yourself into my position, what would you do to deal with these wildly arrogant burglars? Tell me the necessity that why I have to protest my innocence after being treated in this way?

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Muukzor said: @Delicious How about you stop being a conspiracy theorist and stop acting like a total ass towards reputable creators? They're currently #1 and #2 in the tables, I don't see any harm towards them contributing, there's only so many formations you can do, some tactics are bound to be similar. If  you want them compared to Knaps or others, upload them yourself with proper credit so they can be compared and tested then.

Besides, @ZaZ  has been calmer and way nicer to you than you deserve.

You're being a clown, stop being hostile, enjoy the game, enjoy the tactics, if you don't like it, leave.


Explain to me how they are only #1 and #2 in Tests on FM-arena?
Where in other tests they didn't come out on top of testing.

Knaps tactics have been tested in the past, but according to FM-arena tests, they never reached high numbers.
Where on other tests they have, where is the logic in that?

Zaz tactics always hit top spots here but never anywhere else.

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MakeSuRE said: Putting yourself into my position, what would you do to deal with these wildly arrogant burglars? Tell me the necessity that why I have to protest my innocence after being treated in this way?

Prove that they are wrong, other than some screenshot which can be edited nowadays I still didn't see any proof.

Let's put it all up to debate, even if you took inspriation out of someone else his work, just say it.
But take in account, that falsifying information is something that leds to believe the community is not taking it seriously.

Most here are so full up all of your asses, hurt by their pride, that all you do is act defensively.

When people act defensively all the time, you know you got them by the balls, because they got caught.

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Jeffdekker said: Explain to me how they are only #1 and #2 in Tests on FM-arena?
Where in other tests they didn't come out on top of testing.

Knaps tactics have been tested in the past, but according to FM-arena tests, they never reached high numbers.
Where on other tests they have, where is the logic in that?

Zaz tactics always hit top spots here but never anywhere else.


I'm not going to bring Knap to the discussion, I respect the contribution he brings to the community.

About your complaints with results, I have uploaded my tactics to multiple places, and it just happened to be first here. There is nothing more to it. Different tests have different methodologies, which lead to different outcomes. You can even download the results from those testing places and check it yourself. I always answer everyone that talks to me in any of those places, it just happens that people talk more here because my tactic is better on the table.

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