Mark said: I decided to try and find a way to get best value for money for buying players. I have used the ykykyky ratings file which finds the best players by position, I know just using acceleration and pace will result in pretty good players especially in lower divisions. What I decided to focus on was attributes with low CA cost, using the attribute cost table, but big positional impact ie high weighting in the ykykyky rating file. I only looked at rating weights of 50 or higher.
I then ranked the attributes after calculating the attribute weight divided by CA cost.
I think the attribute scores that are above 15 are the ones to use. I have been using the Division average and adding a point or 2 and searching for players. I seem to be getting pretty good players using this approach. My most recent save is tier 8 in the English system. I struggled early and was 6 wins 2 draws and 2 losses after the first 10 games. I restarted the save and bought 10 players using this approach, to cover all outfield positions using ZaZ Blue 4.0. Won the first 10 games.
If you give it a try, please let me know how you go. Expand
Hey Mark, First of as this is my first post I want to say Hi. I feel like a naughty spy having followed this whole thread through FM22 but never created an Account.
I've just started playing FM 23 and fancied a lower team in Premier League or maybe lower league. I decided to give this a shot. I love how you've taken weights of 50+ from ykykyk and divided them by CA Cost. I decided to implement them into FM Lineup Tool even though its not updated anymore as a quick Rating guide and will use the ingame Filters also.
MaceyP said: Hey Mark, First of as this is my first post I want to say Hi. I feel like a naughty spy having followed this whole thread through FM22 but never created an Account.
I've just started playing FM 23 and fancied a lower team in Premier League or maybe lower league. I decided to give this a shot. I love how you've taken weights of 50+ from ykykyk and divided them by CA Cost. I decided to implement them into FM Lineup Tool even though its not updated anymore as a quick Rating guide and will use the ingame Filters also.
Looking forward to giving it a go. Expand
Welcome to the forum as a contributor. I am interested how it plays out, please give an update on what you found
I used the ykykyky balanced method religiously for some seasons as Leicester albeit with a different tactic (still 451). I have no doubt the ML findings are very accurate for zaz blue, and that they still work fine for other setups as well, but I do think that it is highly probable to not be as efficient for tactics using other roles, duties, instructions and/or formations. ML by nature will only optimise upon the parameters given, and if millions of games were simulated using only the same tactic (which I believe was the case here?), instructions cease to matter as a variable factor to the system and the results.
This leaves us with two possibilities, either instructions relative to attributes doesn't matter in the engine (unlikely) or ykykyky represents the optimal weights for its given set of instructions alone. This makes sense as you can't expect a target man striker in a 442 to be dependent on the same attributes as an advanced forward in a 451. If this was the case, the game engine would be a joke.
However, there is a lot of overlap with the positional weights given by the editor, as well as the fmarena attribute tests, so at least it somewhat proves that core attributes such as acc and pace truly are as significant as claimed. There is also without doubt value in looking closer at the attributes that differ greatly from these other weightings, but then specifically in conjunction with the team and player instructions used in zaz blue.
So, if you're using zaz blue, these reported attribute weightings truly must be as close to optimized as you could get. But I'm not convinced that it translates strictly better than the other attribute weight-systems on a general basis... If anything, I would maybe rely more on @Marks approach with having a cutoff and only consider the very best attributes reported per position (maybe at 50+, or even higher) rather than using the whole GS rating spread from 0-100 as the lower you go the more likely it is that an attribute is (significantly) affected by specific instructions, or not dominant enough to be considered too much with the uncertainties we are operating with for a generalized strategy.
Let me just re-iterate that I don't mind being wrong on this, but my findings from exclusively collecting the "best" players in every position as reported by GS using ykykyky didn't consistently improve results or ratings in my differing system. This is an anecdotal observation of course, as I've run no systematic test to prove or disprove ykykyky balanced as the best generalized weighting choice.
I do believe the scientific approach is incredibly cool, and I hope that this isn't the last large scale machine learning optimization project we see on the matter, as the use case for such methodologies is incredibly suitable for a game such as FM. I imagine that running a similar test, but using a set of (vetted) tactics that all perform relatively well with differing roles and instructions to find the true averages of attribute-importance could be mind-blowing.
Edit: As an addendum, I will probably be running a LLM game and implementing the @Mark approach to low-CA-cost-to-performance filters that he suggested as I think this is a very good use case for these findings. I'll let you know how it pans out.
How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not
Middleweight165 said: How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not Expand
You can check in the important attributes testing. Not much
Middleweight165 said: How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not Expand
luisanjao said: hey, i don't like to use genie scout because it shows the players CA and PA
is there be any filter or graph showing important attributes to hire cheap good players, looking inside the game ? Expand
You can remove columns from Genie Scout, removing CA, PA, Rating and other things, and leaving only attributes. It's an option if all you want is to see attributes of all players in a list.
ZaZ said: You can remove columns from Genie Scout, removing CA, PA, Rating and other things, and leaving only attributes. It's an option if all you want is to see attributes of all players in a list. Expand
Mark said: Welcome to the forum as a contributor. I am interested how it plays out, please give an update on what you found Expand
I've decided to start again with a team in the Lower leagues around League One. Thinking MK Dons. At first i tried using filters in game only with everton and didn't quite work out well. I've now done what you have detailed in a previous post. Used ykykyk genie settings but added filter to have x value in the stat and then go for Genie Rating.
Will report back how i get on. If anyone likes to play with 2 DM's Bayer Leverkusen have 2 perfect DM's that fit Mark's Theory already.
Middleweight165 said: @Mark Do you think your filters and the research done by the Chinese forum is applicable to FM21. I've just loaded up the game and was wondering Expand
Pretty confident it would be. But I haven't tested it. Still to do the tests for FM23 as well
mrlontra said: Hi @Mark, I tried to create a ssheey with this weigths but ir doesnt match with Genie. Do you have a sheet with the weigths already ? Expand
Pip said: the attributes are ordered from left to right in order of importance for each role. Though you may want to check this against post 319 Expand
If I understand correctly.. How is it possible, pace and acceleration on DC position give more impact on player performance, than marking and tackling ? I tested this in game too, one test with +4 in pace and acceleration, then second with +4 to marking and tackling. DC with +4 pace and acc perform a lot better in player rating...
Mark said: I have tried using ykykyky and my MDW ratings and both seem to still be producing good results. So the answer to your question is yes. Expand
Thanks for reply, so old ykykyk05251 will be more suitable for FM23 than newer ykykykyk balanced?
Mark said: I decided to try and find a way to get best value for money for buying players. I have used the ykykyky ratings file which finds the best players by position, I know just using acceleration and pace will result in pretty good players especially in lower divisions. What I decided to focus on was attributes with low CA cost, using the attribute cost table, but big positional impact ie high weighting in the ykykyky rating file. I only looked at rating weights of 50 or higher.
I then ranked the attributes after calculating the attribute weight divided by CA cost.
I think the attribute scores that are above 15 are the ones to use. I have been using the Division average and adding a point or 2 and searching for players. I seem to be getting pretty good players using this approach. My most recent save is tier 8 in the English system. I struggled early and was 6 wins 2 draws and 2 losses after the first 10 games. I restarted the save and bought 10 players using this approach, to cover all outfield positions using ZaZ Blue 4.0. Won the first 10 games.
If you give it a try, please let me know how you go.
Hey Mark, First of as this is my first post I want to say Hi. I feel like a naughty spy having followed this whole thread through FM22 but never created an Account.
I've just started playing FM 23 and fancied a lower team in Premier League or maybe lower league. I decided to give this a shot. I love how you've taken weights of 50+ from ykykyk and divided them by CA Cost. I decided to implement them into FM Lineup Tool even though its not updated anymore as a quick Rating guide and will use the ingame Filters also.
Looking forward to giving it a go.
MaceyP said: Hey Mark, First of as this is my first post I want to say Hi. I feel like a naughty spy having followed this whole thread through FM22 but never created an Account.
I've just started playing FM 23 and fancied a lower team in Premier League or maybe lower league. I decided to give this a shot. I love how you've taken weights of 50+ from ykykyk and divided them by CA Cost. I decided to implement them into FM Lineup Tool even though its not updated anymore as a quick Rating guide and will use the ingame Filters also.
Looking forward to giving it a go.
Welcome to the forum as a contributor. I am interested how it plays out, please give an update on what you found
Mark said: Welcome to the forum as a contributor. I am interested how it plays out, please give an update on what you found
My biggest issue is... I can't clear the deadwood out of Everton 😂
I used the ykykyky balanced method religiously for some seasons as Leicester albeit with a different tactic (still 451). I have no doubt the ML findings are very accurate for zaz blue, and that they still work fine for other setups as well, but I do think that it is highly probable to not be as efficient for tactics using other roles, duties, instructions and/or formations. ML by nature will only optimise upon the parameters given, and if millions of games were simulated using only the same tactic (which I believe was the case here?), instructions cease to matter as a variable factor to the system and the results.
This leaves us with two possibilities, either instructions relative to attributes doesn't matter in the engine (unlikely) or ykykyky represents the optimal weights for its given set of instructions alone. This makes sense as you can't expect a target man striker in a 442 to be dependent on the same attributes as an advanced forward in a 451. If this was the case, the game engine would be a joke.
However, there is a lot of overlap with the positional weights given by the editor, as well as the fmarena attribute tests, so at least it somewhat proves that core attributes such as acc and pace truly are as significant as claimed. There is also without doubt value in looking closer at the attributes that differ greatly from these other weightings, but then specifically in conjunction with the team and player instructions used in zaz blue.
So, if you're using zaz blue, these reported attribute weightings truly must be as close to optimized as you could get. But I'm not convinced that it translates strictly better than the other attribute weight-systems on a general basis...
If anything, I would maybe rely more on @Marks approach with having a cutoff and only consider the very best attributes reported per position (maybe at 50+, or even higher) rather than using the whole GS rating spread from 0-100 as the lower you go the more likely it is that an attribute is (significantly) affected by specific instructions, or not dominant enough to be considered too much with the uncertainties we are operating with for a generalized strategy.
Let me just re-iterate that I don't mind being wrong on this, but my findings from exclusively collecting the "best" players in every position as reported by GS using ykykyky didn't consistently improve results or ratings in my differing system.
This is an anecdotal observation of course, as I've run no systematic test to prove or disprove ykykyky balanced as the best generalized weighting choice.
I do believe the scientific approach is incredibly cool, and I hope that this isn't the last large scale machine learning optimization project we see on the matter, as the use case for such methodologies is incredibly suitable for a game such as FM. I imagine that running a similar test, but using a set of (vetted) tactics that all perform relatively well with differing roles and instructions to find the true averages of attribute-importance could be mind-blowing.
Edit: As an addendum, I will probably be running a LLM game and implementing the @Mark approach to low-CA-cost-to-performance filters that he suggested as I think this is a very good use case for these findings. I'll let you know how it pans out.
hey, i don't like to use genie scout because it shows the players CA and PA
is there be any filter or graph showing important attributes to hire cheap good players, looking inside the game ?
How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not
Middleweight165 said: How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not
You can check in the important attributes testing. Not much
Middleweight165 said: How does determination effect performance? Not growth just performance. I have a player I want to sign but his Determination is 2, just wondering if this a big deal or not
https://fm-arena.com/table/18-fm23-attribute-testing/
luisanjao said: hey, i don't like to use genie scout because it shows the players CA and PA
is there be any filter or graph showing important attributes to hire cheap good players, looking inside the game ?
You can remove columns from Genie Scout, removing CA, PA, Rating and other things, and leaving only attributes. It's an option if all you want is to see attributes of all players in a list.
ZaZ said: You can remove columns from Genie Scout, removing CA, PA, Rating and other things, and leaving only attributes. It's an option if all you want is to see attributes of all players in a list.
I will do, thanks
luisanjao said: hey, i don't like to use genie scout because it shows the players CA and PA
is there be any filter or graph showing important attributes to hire cheap good players, looking inside the game ?
I use the attached views in player filters, ordered by most important attrs for position
Pip said: I use the attached views in player filters, ordered by most important attrs for position
Only work on fm 22 ? dont work on my fm 23..
Mark said: Welcome to the forum as a contributor. I am interested how it plays out, please give an update on what you found
I've decided to start again with a team in the Lower leagues around League One. Thinking MK Dons. At first i tried using filters in game only with everton and didn't quite work out well. I've now done what you have detailed in a previous post. Used ykykyk genie settings but added filter to have x value in the stat and then go for Genie Rating.
Will report back how i get on. If anyone likes to play with 2 DM's Bayer Leverkusen have 2 perfect DM's that fit Mark's Theory already.
luisanjao said: Only work on fm 22 ? dont work on my fm 23..
Hmmm - i imported them into FM23 from my FM22 files. Let me export them out of FM23 and repost.
luisanjao said: Only work on fm 22 ? dont work on my fm 23..
Hmmm - i imported them into FM23 from my FM22 files. Let me export them out of FM23 and repost.
@Mark Do you think your filters and the research done by the Chinese forum is applicable to FM21. I've just loaded up the game and was wondering
Middleweight165 said: @Mark Do you think your filters and the research done by the Chinese forum is applicable to FM21. I've just loaded up the game and was wondering
Pretty confident it would be. But I haven't tested it. Still to do the tests for FM23 as well
Hi @Mark, I tried to create a ssheey with this weigths but ir doesnt match with Genie. Do you have a sheet with the weigths already ?
mrlontra said: Hi @Mark, I tried to create a ssheey with this weigths but ir doesnt match with Genie. Do you have a sheet with the weigths already ?
Pip said: Hmmm - i imported them into FM23 from my FM22 files. Let me export them out of FM23 and repost.
ok, i waiting for this
luisanjao said: ok, i waiting for this
the attributes are ordered from left to right in order of importance for each role. Though you may want to check this against post 319
Pip said: the attributes are ordered from left to right in order of importance for each role. Though you may want to check this against post 319
Hey, how do you use these?
stefanopt said: Hey, how do you use these?
Download them and create a folder in your FM23 folder where tactics etc are called views and copy the files into that
Go to scouting>players>players in range
Then import the views...
You may need to mess around to get everything on screen depending on your screen resolution
Mark said:
Hi Mark - do you have this in excel or text form so I can copy and paste into an excel?
thanks
Pip said: Hi Mark - do you have this in excel or text form so I can copy and paste into an excel?
thanks
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1muBAU22TzHTO9_zdNYx7ubePAAUtgVQg/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=106197286223391117795&rtpof=true&sd=true
Mark said:
Hey, Mark! Would that ratings work for FM23?
Snaipz said: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1muBAU22TzHTO9_zdNYx7ubePAAUtgVQg/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=106197286223391117795&rtpof=true&sd=true
Legend - thanks!
duxa92 said: Hey, Mark! Would that ratings work for FM23?
I have tried using ykykyky and my MDW ratings and both seem to still be producing good results. So the answer to your question is yes.
Mark said:
If I understand correctly.. How is it possible, pace and acceleration on DC position give more impact on player performance, than marking and tackling ? I tested this in game too, one test with +4 in pace and acceleration, then second with +4 to marking and tackling. DC with +4 pace and acc perform a lot better in player rating...
Mark said: I have tried using ykykyky and my MDW ratings and both seem to still be producing good results. So the answer to your question is yes.
Thanks for reply, so old ykykyk05251 will be more suitable for FM23 than newer ykykykyk balanced?