Blau said: If the game is ruined for you by learning these things then why are you on FMArena. There will always be a meta that is the most efficient way to play a video game. Many video games are like that. If pressing was significantly "nerfed" and low tempo possession football became the best way to play, people would also complain about that. Your not wrong that the game could benefit from more balancing but there will always be a "best/meta" way to play. Expand
I mean, I still enjoy playing the game the optimal way. The problem isn't necessarily that there is a meta, its just that it has remained the same for many releases, and it is significantly better than other tactical options. Obviously, its very difficult to balance a game as "complex" as FM (even if a lot of that complexity is fake), but like many of the other parts of the game, it feels like there hasn't been any real effort to improve.
crosseyed said: I mean, I still enjoy playing the game the optimal way. The problem isn't necessarily that there is a meta, its just that it has remained the same for many releases, and it is significantly better than other tactical options. Obviously, its very difficult to balance a game as "complex" as FM (even if a lot of that complexity is fake), but like many of the other parts of the game, it feels like there hasn't been any real effort to improve. Expand
I agree that it needs to be balanced more. I think if it could be easily accomplished it would've been done already. The match engine might need to have a greater overhaul for that. Hopefully, FM25 will see a match engine overhaul.
You can definitely play with most tactical styles and win against the AI in the current FM. FM does not really have a big PvP scene so they might not be too concerned with balancing the metagame of user tactics.
Ideally, in my version of a perfect FM it would be better if tactic performance would vary more based on the type of players on the team. For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players, Tiki Taka wouldn't work without great passing players. Tactical instructions should be mostly blank intill you buy specific players fit for the system you want to play.
Blau said: I agree that it needs to be balanced more. I think if it could be easily accomplished it would've been done already. The match engine might need to have a greater overhaul for that. Hopefully, FM25 will see a match engine overhaul.
Ideally, in my version of a perfect FM it would be better if tactic performance would vary more based on the type of players on the team. For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players, Tiki Taka wouldn't work without great passing players. Tactical instructions should be mostly blank intill you buy specific players fit for the system you want to play. Expand
Totally agree with that, it would also add more depth to the recruitment side of things. I wonder if certain attributes being way more important is a symptom or a cause for the tactical imbalance. I would also like to see more reason to adjust tactics per match. In real life, you often see specific adjustments made to counter opponent tactical approaches, but in FM you don't really have a reason to adjust your tactics or even care what the opponent manager's tactical approach tendencies are.
Blau said: At the end of the day Football Manager is a videogame. If you do not enjoy playing the game then don't buy it. Not giving your money to SI will do more for changes you want then complaining on random forum. It is impossible for developers to make a video game that makes everyone happy. You as the consumer have to make the decision if the game is worth it for you to buy. I'm not saying you can't suggest improvements to the game. However, saying that the game is too easy is ironic. It's literally as difficult as you want it to be. Obviously, if you use or test tactics on FMArena it's going to be easy. Expand Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY. - I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years.
Blau said: For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players. Expand For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
dzek said: Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY. - I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years. Expand
You are not forced to preorder the game. You can make the decision to not purchase the game if they do not deliver on the features they promise. You do not have to buy or play the game every year. I think for your sanity it might be better for you to take a break if you do not have fun with the game.
Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. I don't think SI is reading the forums here. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here.
Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality. Expand
Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way. Before that ofc many counter-press teams but none like that dortmund which had training drills and everything tailored for that 5-10s window, i have no idea why the gegenpress for most people is highpressing like without the ball that is a different concept and thing, that is just high pressing which has always been in football, they associate gegenpress with highpressing when in reality gegenpressing is just counter-press thats it a transition moment.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality. Expand
If your saying the aggressive pressing and vertical fast passing of Klopp's Dortmund teams did not require the players to have at least decent stamina then I do not know what to tell you. That's essentially the basic style of the Gegenpress preset tactic. Obviously, not represented perfectly in a video game.
Gegenpress in the FM community refers to the high intensity pressing with high tempo play. Which is relatively the current meta in the game. That is what I was referring to in the previous post.
What the term actually means was described well by Avenger22
@Blau is spitting facts!! This is easy: In the end of the day this is a game that will always have meta gameplay and/or glitches/bugs.
If we are constantly looking up on the internet for FM Arena and forums like that what attributes matter the most, and what tactics are broken, etc etc etc, then obviously we will crack the game in no time and the excitement of the game will die fast.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality. Expand
Why are you still bring-in "in-real football", I believe FIFA should be the "realistic" game and even tho i never played it i am sure of it is far from it.
If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize. You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play".
P.S. Every style almost need stamina, but as i said i am not here to convince none.
Do you even know, how much a player run around the pich every games?
Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totaly blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here.
Did you even played a season on this M.E. and watched the extended highlights, i do suggest all of you, instead of your 2D, because it's clear that you don't even know what you talking about at this point.
Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong.
Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way. Before that ofc many counter-press teams but none like that dortmund which had training drills and everything tailored for that 5-10s window, i have no idea why the gegenpress for most people is highpressing like without the ball that is a different concept and thing, that is just high pressing which has always been in football, they associate gegenpress with highpressing when in reality gegenpressing is just counter-press thats it a transition moment. Expand
That's it! but Klopp made it a bit different to "how often" it was triggered but w/e. You can define it with OI's.
here a video, 3 minutes
Back in-game, who said that mid-block ain't working? How did you tried to make it work? I can tell you that much lower is a bit meh, but mid-block is pretty fine.
Point is where you gonna fight to get the ball-back, if you win it back on the middle you will still need to face-off the defenders, if you win it on oppo defenders you will create vs GK situation. That's the difference.
Why do you believe middle block should be more efficient then High one?
If you care about 1 point of test league, that's your problem none forced you, but saying "doesn't work, because on arena test isn't giving same results, you do understand your self.
If you play high-pressing LOE vs City/Pool or those elite teams with aliens BPDs, it's your choice.
It's since EPL started to shine again, that the game went more on physical attributes, that's a fact, you don't only need to be good on tecnical aspect but even physical one.
I mean, before de Zerbi went to Brighton, now seriously who the hell believed that those players could play that kind of football? So it's not impossible to achieve that but to make it shining you need what? Better players.
Mourinho, the most boring game-style(and i am Romanista), but he can win and achieve success with it. But with super good players he can demolish a league. With Roma he can't because MissingPoint = good players.
I am playing since some days, trying now de zerbi, now they made like hell to reproduce his build-up not even know why, at least on FM23 we could achieve something similar, now the GK is totaly cut-off from the build-up.
But if people come and tell me if FM20-21-22-23 are even near to FM24 i would tell em, hell no.
Player interaction is just better, everything around the gameplay is better.
---FM in nutshell---
It's far from good? Yes It's far from balanced? Yes Who cares? Yes We buy it? Yes
When i play that is for fun, if i want to compete, i just go to MTGA.
Now ask your self what do you want from this game-flight simulator.
Edit :
I went to check the features ( didn't even know they were doing this sort of adv) :
TRUER FOOTBALL MOTION Signficant enhancements to player movement, ball physics and lighting level up the drama of matchday, creating the most immersive and best-looking match engine to date.
-That's is working, it's the thing i am talking about and make "FM24 unique".
DOMINATE FROM SET PIECES Make an impact at both ends of the pitch with a new-look Set Piece Creator, powered by brand-new Set Piece Coaches who will support by crafting the perfect routines.
-This is discutibile, very shitty the system, for me is far from "newbie user" but w/e.
BRACE FOR TRANSFER BATTLES Showcase your skills in the most refined transfer market to date, and prepare to battle for talent against more intelligent rival managers, who will push you harder in the hunt for players.
- For now i did noticed nothing regarding this, it's the same as FM23, didn't play that long to so if AI is smarter like they stating.
OFFLOAD PLAYERS WITH NEW AGENTS Overhaul your squad and increase your transfer budget with new Intermediary agents and increased options for moving on unwanted players to help fund your rebuild.
- ?????
There seem like to read Jdaily with his "META OP 20 RATE points Tactics".
Now tell me if i am missing something... What do you guys did expect from FM24?
Delicious said: Now tell me if i am missing something... What do you guys did expect from FM24? Expand
I personally was most hoping for the ai managers to be more competent since that is definitely a weak spot, but to perhaps no surprise, like other more vague new features they promote there isn’t really a noticeable difference. My last FM was 21 so there’s a pretty big improvement to 24 for me so I can’t speak to the year on year upgrade. I do agree that the matches look a lot better though.
crosseyed said: I personally was most hoping for the ai managers to be more competent since that is definitely a weak spot, but to perhaps no surprise, like other more vague new features they promote there isn’t really a noticeable difference. My last FM was 21 so there’s a pretty big improvement to 24 for me so I can’t speak to the year on year upgrade. I do agree that the matches look a lot better though. Expand
We don't know yet, what they did with AI, let's see, but believe me , if they make it too "adaptative", 99% of the community will start the process = cry like no toworrow. I am now re-working all the Set pieces, because they had the brilliant idea to put 5 man on near post Still i don't know what you guys expect from this anymore.
Still if i have to trade 10 goals from corners for this gameplay i will do even for 20 goals less from corners, no regrets. IF now they gonna make possession basic tactics better, i would be very happy with this FM24.
Delicious said: We don't know yet, what they did with AI, let's see, but believe me , if they make it too "adaptative", 99% of the community will start the process = cry like no toworrow. Expand
Half the community already complains about ai adapting to thier tactics when that isn’t even a mechanic, lol.
Blau said: You are not forced to preorder the game. You can make the decision to not purchase the game if they do not deliver on the features they promise. You do not have to buy or play the game every year. I think for your sanity it might be better for you to take a break if you do not have fun with the game. Expand Man since there is freedom of speech I can share my opinion. If you disagree I respect it and will leave it until here.
Blau said: Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here. Expand That's your opinion. I don't need to tell you exactly what I do about FM in general. But if you don't fall into the category of people who report bugs and such, please show some respect.
Blau said: I don't think SI is reading the forums here. Expand Are you sure?
Blau said: Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year. Expand I didn't talk about a lot of new features in every new release. All I said was that I would like them to keep the promise they make to the fans of their product. You are misinterpreting my words.
Delicious said: Why are you still bring-in "in-real football", I believe FIFA should be the "realistic" game and even tho i never played it i am sure of it is far from it. Expand Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
Delicious said: If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize. You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play". Expand If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Delicious said: Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totally blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here. Expand Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it. Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Delicious said: Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong. Expand Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool? When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here. Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way. Expand
dzek said: Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it. Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool? When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here. Expand
So, you are a sheep because SI said it on their advertisement. Perfect at least i know to whom i am refering to.
Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best)
Klopp's interview :
Liverpool tallied 116km in total at White Hart Lane and, in doing so, became the first side to clock up more distance than Spurs so far this term.
“We need to have a plan and that’s what we are trying to do, but we don’t have to run 150km a game to be successful - we have to be prepared for each style we want to do.
“There is always talk about, ‘Can they do this every three days?’ Yes, of course we need healthy players, but we don’t kill the players – we train with them and they have the confidence and physical skills to do this because they are young, healthy and professionals.
“We ran 116km against Tottenham. There were 5km that were not useful and we did them – but we did them because we wanted to. It was not the most clever thing, but now we can try to turn the screws and do it in the right way, in the right moment, with better timing and [being] cooler with the ball. It will get better and better and better.
“If you play against a much better team and are not ready to run more than they are, then you are crazy. Tottenham have been together for a long time – they are stable with results and performances – so we had to give them problems, and that’s what we tried to do.
-------
- If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really senteced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY.
Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run alot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press? -Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i?
Now before you do, you can come at me, saying that Klopp changed the way of how he APPLY PRESSURE and tempo and even system-up(after that,if you want to understand that there is more then just "counter-pressing phase", good for you, since basically his players are not "fresh" like before). I will not open now another wall about tempo, because you could've mentionated it from the start so i guess you believe is a full-throttle game and runs only one team.
Instead of Sacking him, they let him evolve his way, like is very interesting how he evolved it nowdays.
I trully believe at this point that even you can understand this simple point : If a youtuber can analyze his basic system to explain why it was getting countered SO HARD last season, i believe everyone can understand it. There are some many phases in the game, but learning basic is the first step.
But let's say you are right and whatever, how do you believe moving 3/4 players to get the ball back doesn't involve player's stamina is a unknow concept to me, didn't know running for 12-15kms, was so stamina free, will start tomorrow maybe i can do 1km since my stamina is almost 0.
Last tip about full width-fairly width "pressing" ; IF your winger is playing narrow, what you gonna do? Passing to the ball to WB L/R seem very easy solution to me, since the guy runned like a wild dog in the center to get the ball back. I do believe there is more to the plate, like Klopp : YO, SALAH LET's PLAY MORE NEAR THE LINE MAN They found out our weakness!
To conclude this wall of text, if you believe apply all those mechanics is simple matter, i do literally suggest you to open your own company and run your IRL-Simulator.
Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
As a Liverpool fan, this can't be further from the truth. Yes we pressed more than 20218/2019 in 2019/2020 but our pressing numbers were still lower than Klopp's beginning seasons. Second, Klopp used situational pressing more to adapt to the fact that full on gegengressing is physically taxing on the players. 2017/2018 was the peak of our gegenpressing, and it really showed in the match against Real Madrid. Our players were knackered. Same thing happened in 2016/2017 in the Europa Final against Sevilla. We had many physios leave the club after their warning that such aggressive pressing play would not be sustainable long term because the physical fatigue would eventually catch up to the players. This was the main cause of our injury crisis after our EPL win. You will also notice that Liverpool covered less distance on the pitch that season because our players were too fatigued after two high intensity seasons and 0 reinforcements in the market.
And look what getting fresh and athletic players has done for our pressing now. We are back to having one of the best press in the league after we overhauled our tired and again midfield. So I would not agree with the notion that gegenpressing is not physically demanding. Even Leeds, another team famous for gegenpressing crumbled in their second season after fatigues and injuries mounted. Manchester City is the exception, not the norm. Also, I would attribute their exception to their ability to retain possession so well. No other team in the world can dominate possession like them.
Lastly, this is the most puzzling part for me because it's just a blatant lie, we did not have only 13-15 players in the season we won the league. We had a really strong bench during our UCL winning and EPL winning campaigns. We had a pretty good bench of Chamberlain, Keita, Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri, Lorvren, Milner, Gomez and some youth players. Most Liverpool fans still consider this to be the best bench we have had in recent times.
No offense, but this is just silly imo. How many features have SI introduced but flat out don't work? Dynamic youth rating is the main one I can think of. Match preparedness also had no effect on performance as shown by EBFM's experiment and SI just removed that feature after being called out lmao. But heck, look at the FM Arena attribute testing. Many of the attributes highlighted in green or blue as being important for the position by the game flat out don't have much impact on the ME. It's surprising someone on this forum would continue to blindly take SI at face value when even they don't seem to understand how their game is running.
I still see here people confusing gegenpressing with high pressing, i mean FM has done very well in dividing the UI for it so in game it is very clear then the implementation is different and can be imropoved more on both.
Klopp with his liverpool has never counter-pressed like with Dortmund never even title winning and whatever the reason is like everything in football others adapt, the gegenpressing Klopp had in 2010-2014 was something very new and nobody used it and was completely alien, then people started to expose the risk it takes to counter-press in transition that heavily like that Dortmund, but ofc he still counter-presses alot and is top at it but not like that Dortmund because it cannot have success in 2023 like many other things which evolve in football, counter-press is a huge risk in real life because if other team is smart and has good technical player they can bail the counter-press by 1)dribbling his way out 2) direct passes and trying to bypass the initial 5-10 s of passing.
SI can do alot better i have played this game since fm12 and i since then knew they had huge potential in simulation and i still think they can achieve a very close simulation of football based on a videogame because the base is there, FIFA is a meme and is far to simulate football even with their huge money they don't evolve
Floppyaams said: Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
As a Liverpool fan, this can't be further from the truth. Yes we pressed more than 20218/2019 in 2019/2020 but our pressing numbers were still lower than Klopp's beginning seasons. Second, Klopp used situational pressing more to adapt to the fact that full on gegengressing is physically taxing on the players. 2017/2018 was the peak of our gegenpressing, and it really showed in the match against Real Madrid. Our players were knackered. Same thing happened in 2016/2017 in the Europa Final against Sevilla. We had many physios leave the club after their warning that such aggressive pressing play would not be sustainable long term because the physical fatigue would eventually catch up to the players. This was the main cause of our injury crisis after our EPL win. You will also notice that Liverpool covered less distance on the pitch that season because our players were too fatigued after two high intensity seasons and 0 reinforcements in the market.
And look what getting fresh and athletic players has done for our pressing now. We are back to having one of the best press in the league after we overhauled our tired and again midfield. So I would not agree with the notion that gegenpressing is not physically demanding. Even Leeds, another team famous for gegenpressing crumbled in their second season after fatigues and injuries mounted. Manchester City is the exception, not the norm. Also, I would attribute their exception to their ability to retain possession so well. No other team in the world can dominate possession like them.
Lastly, this is the most puzzling part for me because it's just a blatant lie, we did not have only 13-15 players in the season we won the league. We had a really strong bench during our UCL winning and EPL winning campaigns. We had a pretty good bench of Chamberlain, Keita, Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri, Lorvren, Milner, Gomez and some youth players. Most Liverpool fans still consider this to be the best bench we have had in recent times. Expand
Counter-press is not that demanding physically you press only 5s or 10s after you lose the ball thats it, is hard to implement in real life to press the counter then win the ball while other team is disorganized because they wanted to counter you but now they lost the ball and are clueless and prone to concede, highpress full 90 minutes doesn't exist in real life is as said earlier is how to retire at 25 players moto football, teams play with triggers nobody presses like some dudes at park who run back and forth without head and fans think, plus in PL 90% have midblock apart from City and Liverpool, Spurs who use highpress but even they have lots of moments in game which go to midblock.
I dont care about the pressing discussion but the game is a joke. They still haven't fixed the Spanish salary cap lol. Its a major league, hardly Djibouti is it
keithb said: I dont care about the pressing discussion but the game is a joke. They still haven't fixed the Spanish salary cap lol. Its a major league, hardly Djibouti is it Expand
Maybe the PR0 mod or some mod who change lot of stuff can fix these stuff have no idea imo
The first thing it mentions is the physical exertion of the tactic. I think you are too hung up on the entomology of the word and forgetting that the meaning of words can evolve with time. When people talk about geggenpressing, they are clearly referring to the relentless high energy press employed by Klopp.
Delicious said: So, you are a sheep because SI said it on their advertisement. Perfect at least i know to whom i am referring to. Expand Just a minute to understand who you are in not believing what a company announces about the product they are going to sell. Every year we have to talk to you so you can tell us whether or not the game is worth it that you don't fall victim to SI. Decide who you're with? One defending the game, one telling us we are sheep. I really don't understand.
Delicious said: Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best) Expand Please don't misinform the people reading this thread. Everything you have posted has nothing to do with COUNTER-PRESS but is PRESSING in general and what you say they are pressing zonally is PRESSING TRAP to direct the opponent to an area where the team has the superiority in number and/or quality of players to won the ball back.
Delicious said: - If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really sentenced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY. Expand You really have completely missed the point. You are our guru! Keep it up! Hahaha
Delicious said: Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run a lot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press? -Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i? Expand Brother, did you really ever play football? I really want to know..
Delicious said: Did i misunderstood you again? Expand You are so funny. Before you make a joke, please let us know.
Floppyaams said: No offense, but this is just silly imo. How many features have SI introduced but flat out don't work? Dynamic youth rating is the main one I can think of. Match preparedness also had no effect on performance as shown by EBFM's experiment and SI just removed that feature after being called out lmao. But heck, look at the FM Arena attribute testing. Many of the attributes highlighted in green or blue as being important for the position by the game flat out don't have much impact on the ME. It's surprising someone on this forum would continue to blindly take SI at face value when even they don't seem to understand how their game is running. Expand Brother, I agree with you. I just wanted to post it to show that they are at least trying to adapt to the user's tactics. So you come back to my words...
We all admit there are bugs but you(not you specifically) blame those who point them out to SI and call them toxic. Well done!
Delicious said: And we do expect SI, to filter all the garbage is coming towards them... Expand Look at a gentleman who wants to have a serious and constructive dialogue!
Blau said: If the game is ruined for you by learning these things then why are you on FMArena. There will always be a meta that is the most efficient way to play a video game. Many video games are like that. If pressing was significantly "nerfed" and low tempo possession football became the best way to play, people would also complain about that. Your not wrong that the game could benefit from more balancing but there will always be a "best/meta" way to play.
I mean, I still enjoy playing the game the optimal way. The problem isn't necessarily that there is a meta, its just that it has remained the same for many releases, and it is significantly better than other tactical options. Obviously, its very difficult to balance a game as "complex" as FM (even if a lot of that complexity is fake), but like many of the other parts of the game, it feels like there hasn't been any real effort to improve.
crosseyed said: I mean, I still enjoy playing the game the optimal way. The problem isn't necessarily that there is a meta, its just that it has remained the same for many releases, and it is significantly better than other tactical options. Obviously, its very difficult to balance a game as "complex" as FM (even if a lot of that complexity is fake), but like many of the other parts of the game, it feels like there hasn't been any real effort to improve.
I agree that it needs to be balanced more. I think if it could be easily accomplished it would've been done already. The match engine might need to have a greater overhaul for that. Hopefully, FM25 will see a match engine overhaul.
You can definitely play with most tactical styles and win against the AI in the current FM. FM does not really have a big PvP scene so they might not be too concerned with balancing the metagame of user tactics.
Ideally, in my version of a perfect FM it would be better if tactic performance would vary more based on the type of players on the team. For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players, Tiki Taka wouldn't work without great passing players. Tactical instructions should be mostly blank intill you buy specific players fit for the system you want to play.
Blau said: I agree that it needs to be balanced more. I think if it could be easily accomplished it would've been done already. The match engine might need to have a greater overhaul for that. Hopefully, FM25 will see a match engine overhaul.
Ideally, in my version of a perfect FM it would be better if tactic performance would vary more based on the type of players on the team. For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players, Tiki Taka wouldn't work without great passing players. Tactical instructions should be mostly blank intill you buy specific players fit for the system you want to play.
Totally agree with that, it would also add more depth to the recruitment side of things. I wonder if certain attributes being way more important is a symptom or a cause for the tactical imbalance. I would also like to see more reason to adjust tactics per match. In real life, you often see specific adjustments made to counter opponent tactical approaches, but in FM you don't really have a reason to adjust your tactics or even care what the opponent manager's tactical approach tendencies are.
Blau said: At the end of the day Football Manager is a videogame. If you do not enjoy playing the game then don't buy it. Not giving your money to SI will do more for changes you want then complaining on random forum. It is impossible for developers to make a video game that makes everyone happy. You as the consumer have to make the decision if the game is worth it for you to buy. I'm not saying you can't suggest improvements to the game. However, saying that the game is too easy is ironic. It's literally as difficult as you want it to be. Obviously, if you use or test tactics on FMArena it's going to be easy.
Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY.
- I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years.
Blau said: For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players.
For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
dzek said: Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY.
- I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years.
You are not forced to preorder the game. You can make the decision to not purchase the game if they do not deliver on the features they promise. You do not have to buy or play the game every year. I think for your sanity it might be better for you to take a break if you do not have fun with the game.
Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. I don't think SI is reading the forums here. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here.
Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way.
Before that ofc many counter-press teams but none like that dortmund which had training drills and everything tailored for that 5-10s window, i have no idea why the gegenpress for most people is highpressing like without the ball that is a different concept and thing, that is just high pressing which has always been in football, they associate gegenpress with highpressing when in reality gegenpressing is just counter-press thats it a transition moment.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
If your saying the aggressive pressing and vertical fast passing of Klopp's Dortmund teams did not require the players to have at least decent stamina then I do not know what to tell you. That's essentially the basic style of the Gegenpress preset tactic. Obviously, not represented perfectly in a video game.
Gegenpress in the FM community refers to the high intensity pressing with high tempo play. Which is relatively the current meta in the game. That is what I was referring to in the previous post.
What the term actually means was described well by Avenger22
@Blau is spitting facts!! This is easy: In the end of the day this is a game that will always have meta gameplay and/or glitches/bugs.
If we are constantly looking up on the internet for FM Arena and forums like that what attributes matter the most, and what tactics are broken, etc etc etc, then obviously we will crack the game in no time and the excitement of the game will die fast.
dzek said: For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
Why are you still bring-in "in-real football", I believe FIFA should be the "realistic" game and even tho i never played it i am sure of it is far from it.
If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize.
You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play".
P.S. Every style almost need stamina, but as i said i am not here to convince none.
Do you even know, how much a player run around the pich every games?
Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totaly blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here.
Did you even played a season on this M.E. and watched the extended highlights, i do suggest all of you, instead of your 2D, because it's clear that you don't even know what you talking about at this point.
Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong.
Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way.
Before that ofc many counter-press teams but none like that dortmund which had training drills and everything tailored for that 5-10s window, i have no idea why the gegenpress for most people is highpressing like without the ball that is a different concept and thing, that is just high pressing which has always been in football, they associate gegenpress with highpressing when in reality gegenpressing is just counter-press thats it a transition moment.
That's it! but Klopp made it a bit different to "how often" it was triggered but w/e. You can define it with OI's.
here a video, 3 minutes
Back in-game, who said that mid-block ain't working? How did you tried to make it work? I can tell you that much lower is a bit meh, but mid-block is pretty fine.
Point is where you gonna fight to get the ball-back, if you win it back on the middle you will still need to face-off the defenders, if you win it on oppo defenders you will create vs GK situation.
That's the difference.
Why do you believe middle block should be more efficient then High one?
If you care about 1 point of test league, that's your problem none forced you, but saying "doesn't work, because on arena test isn't giving same results, you do understand your self.
If you play high-pressing LOE vs City/Pool or those elite teams with aliens BPDs, it's your choice.
It's since EPL started to shine again, that the game went more on physical attributes, that's a fact, you don't only need to be good on tecnical aspect but even physical one.
I mean, before de Zerbi went to Brighton, now seriously who the hell believed that those players could play that kind of football? So it's not impossible to achieve that but to make it shining you need what? Better players.
Mourinho, the most boring game-style(and i am Romanista), but he can win and achieve success with it. But with super good players he can demolish a league. With Roma he can't because MissingPoint = good players.
I am playing since some days, trying now de zerbi, now they made like hell to reproduce his build-up not even know why, at least on FM23 we could achieve something similar, now the GK is totaly cut-off from the build-up.
But if people come and tell me if FM20-21-22-23 are even near to FM24 i would tell em, hell no.
Player interaction is just better, everything around the gameplay is better.
---FM in nutshell---
It's far from good? Yes
It's far from balanced? Yes
Who cares? Yes
We buy it? Yes
When i play that is for fun, if i want to compete, i just go to MTGA.
Now ask your self what do you want from this game-flight simulator.
Edit :
I went to check the features ( didn't even know they were doing this sort of adv) :
https://www.footballmanager.com/features
TRUER FOOTBALL MOTION
Signficant enhancements to player movement, ball physics and lighting level up the drama of matchday, creating the most immersive and best-looking match engine to date.
-That's is working, it's the thing i am talking about and make "FM24 unique".
DOMINATE FROM SET PIECES
Make an impact at both ends of the pitch with a new-look Set Piece Creator, powered by brand-new Set Piece Coaches who will support by crafting the perfect routines.
-This is discutibile, very shitty the system, for me is far from "newbie user" but w/e.
BRACE FOR TRANSFER BATTLES
Showcase your skills in the most refined transfer market to date, and prepare to battle for talent against more intelligent rival managers, who will push you harder in the hunt for players.
- For now i did noticed nothing regarding this, it's the same as FM23, didn't play that long to so if AI is smarter like they stating.
OFFLOAD PLAYERS WITH NEW AGENTS
Overhaul your squad and increase your transfer budget with new Intermediary agents and increased options for moving on unwanted players to help fund your rebuild.
- ?????
There seem like to read Jdaily with his "META OP 20 RATE points Tactics".
Now tell me if i am missing something... What do you guys did expect from FM24?
Delicious said: Now tell me if i am missing something... What do you guys did expect from FM24?
I personally was most hoping for the ai managers to be more competent since that is definitely a weak spot, but to perhaps no surprise, like other more vague new features they promote there isn’t really a noticeable difference. My last FM was 21 so there’s a pretty big improvement to 24 for me so I can’t speak to the year on year upgrade. I do agree that the matches look a lot better though.
crosseyed said: I personally was most hoping for the ai managers to be more competent since that is definitely a weak spot, but to perhaps no surprise, like other more vague new features they promote there isn’t really a noticeable difference. My last FM was 21 so there’s a pretty big improvement to 24 for me so I can’t speak to the year on year upgrade. I do agree that the matches look a lot better though.
We don't know yet, what they did with AI, let's see, but believe me , if they make it too "adaptative", 99% of the community will start the process = cry like no toworrow. I am now re-working all the Set pieces, because they had the brilliant idea to put 5 man on near post
Still i don't know what you guys expect from this anymore.
Still if i have to trade 10 goals from corners for this gameplay i will do even for 20 goals less from corners, no regrets. IF now they gonna make possession basic tactics better, i would be very happy with this FM24.
Delicious said: We don't know yet, what they did with AI, let's see, but believe me , if they make it too "adaptative", 99% of the community will start the process = cry like no toworrow.
Half the community already complains about ai adapting to thier tactics when that isn’t even a mechanic, lol.
crosseyed said: Half the community already complains about ai adapting to thier tactics when that isn’t even a mechanic, lol.
And we do expect SI, to filtrer all the garbage is coming towards them...
Blau said: You are not forced to preorder the game. You can make the decision to not purchase the game if they do not deliver on the features they promise. You do not have to buy or play the game every year. I think for your sanity it might be better for you to take a break if you do not have fun with the game.
Man since there is freedom of speech I can share my opinion. If you disagree I respect it and will leave it until here.
Blau said: Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here.
That's your opinion. I don't need to tell you exactly what I do about FM in general. But if you don't fall into the category of people who report bugs and such, please show some respect.
Blau said: I don't think SI is reading the forums here.
Are you sure?
Blau said: Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year.
I didn't talk about a lot of new features in every new release. All I said was that I would like them to keep the promise they make to the fans of their product. You are misinterpreting my words.
Delicious said: Why are you still bring-in "in-real football", I believe FIFA should be the "realistic" game and even tho i never played it i am sure of it is far from it.
Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
Delicious said: If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize.
You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play".
If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Delicious said: Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totally blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here.
Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it.
Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Delicious said: Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong.
Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool?
When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here.
Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way.
crosseyed said: Half the community already complains about ai adapting to thier tactics when that isn’t even a mechanic, lol.
dzek said: Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it.
Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool?
When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here.
So, you are a sheep because SI said it on their advertisement. Perfect at least i know to whom i am refering to.
Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
https://youtube.com/shorts/-EbxCGlLP4s?si=ZSD80gV2z2dPQXYa
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best)
Klopp's interview :
Liverpool tallied 116km in total at White Hart Lane and, in doing so, became the first side to clock up more distance than Spurs so far this term.
“We need to have a plan and that’s what we are trying to do, but we don’t have to run 150km a game to be successful - we have to be prepared for each style we want to do.
“There is always talk about, ‘Can they do this every three days?’ Yes, of course we need healthy players, but we don’t kill the players – we train with them and they have the confidence and physical skills to do this because they are young, healthy and professionals.
“We ran 116km against Tottenham. There were 5km that were not useful and we did them – but we did them because we wanted to. It was not the most clever thing, but now we can try to turn the screws and do it in the right way, in the right moment, with better timing and [being] cooler with the ball. It will get better and better and better.
“If you play against a much better team and are not ready to run more than they are, then you are crazy. Tottenham have been together for a long time – they are stable with results and performances – so we had to give them problems, and that’s what we tried to do.
-------
- If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really senteced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY.
Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run alot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press?
-Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i?
Now before you do, you can come at me, saying that Klopp changed the way of how he APPLY PRESSURE and tempo and even system-up(after that,if you want to understand that there is more then just "counter-pressing phase", good for you, since basically his players are not "fresh" like before).
I will not open now another wall about tempo, because you could've mentionated it from the start so i guess you believe is a full-throttle game and runs only one team.
Instead of Sacking him, they let him evolve his way, like is very interesting how he evolved it nowdays.
I trully believe at this point that even you can understand this simple point : If a youtuber can analyze his basic system to explain why it was getting countered SO HARD last season, i believe everyone can understand it. There are some many phases in the game, but learning basic is the first step.
But let's say you are right and whatever, how do you believe moving 3/4 players to get the ball back doesn't involve player's stamina is a unknow concept to me, didn't know running for 12-15kms, was so stamina free, will start tomorrow maybe i can do 1km since my stamina is almost 0.
Last tip about full width-fairly width "pressing" ; IF your winger is playing narrow, what you gonna do? Passing to the ball to WB L/R seem very easy solution to me, since the guy runned like a wild dog in the center to get the ball back. I do believe there is more to the plate, like Klopp : YO, SALAH LET's PLAY MORE NEAR THE LINE MAN They found out our weakness!
To conclude this wall of text, if you believe apply all those mechanics is simple matter, i do literally suggest you to open your own company and run your IRL-Simulator.
Did i misunderstood you again?
Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
As a Liverpool fan, this can't be further from the truth. Yes we pressed more than 20218/2019 in 2019/2020 but our pressing numbers were still lower than Klopp's beginning seasons. Second, Klopp used situational pressing more to adapt to the fact that full on gegengressing is physically taxing on the players. 2017/2018 was the peak of our gegenpressing, and it really showed in the match against Real Madrid. Our players were knackered. Same thing happened in 2016/2017 in the Europa Final against Sevilla. We had many physios leave the club after their warning that such aggressive pressing play would not be sustainable long term because the physical fatigue would eventually catch up to the players. This was the main cause of our injury crisis after our EPL win. You will also notice that Liverpool covered less distance on the pitch that season because our players were too fatigued after two high intensity seasons and 0 reinforcements in the market.
And look what getting fresh and athletic players has done for our pressing now. We are back to having one of the best press in the league after we overhauled our tired and again midfield. So I would not agree with the notion that gegenpressing is not physically demanding. Even Leeds, another team famous for gegenpressing crumbled in their second season after fatigues and injuries mounted. Manchester City is the exception, not the norm. Also, I would attribute their exception to their ability to retain possession so well. No other team in the world can dominate possession like them.
Lastly, this is the most puzzling part for me because it's just a blatant lie, we did not have only 13-15 players in the season we won the league. We had a really strong bench during our UCL winning and EPL winning campaigns. We had a pretty good bench of Chamberlain, Keita, Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri, Lorvren, Milner, Gomez and some youth players. Most Liverpool fans still consider this to be the best bench we have had in recent times.
dzek said:
No offense, but this is just silly imo. How many features have SI introduced but flat out don't work? Dynamic youth rating is the main one I can think of. Match preparedness also had no effect on performance as shown by EBFM's experiment and SI just removed that feature after being called out lmao. But heck, look at the FM Arena attribute testing. Many of the attributes highlighted in green or blue as being important for the position by the game flat out don't have much impact on the ME. It's surprising someone on this forum would continue to blindly take SI at face value when even they don't seem to understand how their game is running.
I still see here people confusing gegenpressing with high pressing, i mean FM has done very well in dividing the UI for it so in game it is very clear then the implementation is different and can be imropoved more on both.
Klopp with his liverpool has never counter-pressed like with Dortmund never even title winning and whatever the reason is like everything in football others adapt, the gegenpressing Klopp had in 2010-2014 was something very new and nobody used it and was completely alien, then people started to expose the risk it takes to counter-press in transition that heavily like that Dortmund, but ofc he still counter-presses alot and is top at it but not like that Dortmund because it cannot have success in 2023 like many other things which evolve in football, counter-press is a huge risk in real life because if other team is smart and has good technical player they can bail the counter-press by 1)dribbling his way out 2) direct passes and trying to bypass the initial 5-10 s of passing.
SI can do alot better i have played this game since fm12 and i since then knew they had huge potential in simulation and i still think they can achieve a very close simulation of football based on a videogame because the base is there, FIFA is a meme and is far to simulate football even with their huge money they don't evolve
Floppyaams said: Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
As a Liverpool fan, this can't be further from the truth. Yes we pressed more than 20218/2019 in 2019/2020 but our pressing numbers were still lower than Klopp's beginning seasons. Second, Klopp used situational pressing more to adapt to the fact that full on gegengressing is physically taxing on the players. 2017/2018 was the peak of our gegenpressing, and it really showed in the match against Real Madrid. Our players were knackered. Same thing happened in 2016/2017 in the Europa Final against Sevilla. We had many physios leave the club after their warning that such aggressive pressing play would not be sustainable long term because the physical fatigue would eventually catch up to the players. This was the main cause of our injury crisis after our EPL win. You will also notice that Liverpool covered less distance on the pitch that season because our players were too fatigued after two high intensity seasons and 0 reinforcements in the market.
And look what getting fresh and athletic players has done for our pressing now. We are back to having one of the best press in the league after we overhauled our tired and again midfield. So I would not agree with the notion that gegenpressing is not physically demanding. Even Leeds, another team famous for gegenpressing crumbled in their second season after fatigues and injuries mounted. Manchester City is the exception, not the norm. Also, I would attribute their exception to their ability to retain possession so well. No other team in the world can dominate possession like them.
Lastly, this is the most puzzling part for me because it's just a blatant lie, we did not have only 13-15 players in the season we won the league. We had a really strong bench during our UCL winning and EPL winning campaigns. We had a pretty good bench of Chamberlain, Keita, Lallana, Origi, Shaqiri, Lorvren, Milner, Gomez and some youth players. Most Liverpool fans still consider this to be the best bench we have had in recent times.
Counter-press is not that demanding physically you press only 5s or 10s after you lose the ball thats it, is hard to implement in real life to press the counter then win the ball while other team is disorganized because they wanted to counter you but now they lost the ball and are clueless and prone to concede, highpress full 90 minutes doesn't exist in real life is as said earlier is how to retire at 25 players moto football, teams play with triggers nobody presses like some dudes at park who run back and forth without head and fans think, plus in PL 90% have midblock apart from City and Liverpool, Spurs who use highpress but even they have lots of moments in game which go to midblock.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RdplXSMOHhc
This video explain in 1 minute the difference
I dont care about the pressing discussion but the game is a joke. They still haven't fixed the Spanish salary cap lol. Its a major league, hardly Djibouti is it
keithb said: I dont care about the pressing discussion but the game is a joke. They still haven't fixed the Spanish salary cap lol. Its a major league, hardly Djibouti is it
Maybe the PR0 mod or some mod who change lot of stuff can fix these stuff have no idea imo
Avenger22 said: Maybe the PR0 mod or some mod who change lot of stuff can fix these stuff have no idea imo
Why should you need a mod to fix a serious issue with a major league for the best-selling football management game?
Avenger22 said: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RdplXSMOHhc
This video explain in 1 minute the difference
Here is a video literally titled "what is geggenpressing" https://youtube.com/shorts/4X3jmVvrjxo?si=saxdnFIwtXD93RjY
The first thing it mentions is the physical exertion of the tactic. I think you are too hung up on the entomology of the word and forgetting that the meaning of words can evolve with time. When people talk about geggenpressing, they are clearly referring to the relentless high energy press employed by Klopp.
Delicious said: So, you are a sheep because SI said it on their advertisement. Perfect at least i know to whom i am referring to.
Just a minute to understand who you are in not believing what a company announces about the product they are going to sell. Every year we have to talk to you so you can tell us whether or not the game is worth it that you don't fall victim to SI. Decide who you're with? One defending the game, one telling us we are sheep. I really don't understand.
Delicious said: Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
https://youtube.com/shorts/-EbxCGlLP4s?si=ZSD80gV2z2dPQXYa
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best)
Please don't misinform the people reading this thread. Everything you have posted has nothing to do with COUNTER-PRESS but is PRESSING in general and what you say they are pressing zonally is PRESSING TRAP to direct the opponent to an area where the team has the superiority in number and/or quality of players to won the ball back.
Delicious said: - If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really sentenced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY.
You really have completely missed the point. You are our guru! Keep it up!
Hahaha
Delicious said: Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run a lot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press?
-Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i?
Brother, did you really ever play football? I really want to know..
Delicious said: Did i misunderstood you again?
You are so funny. Before you make a joke, please let us know.
Floppyaams said: No offense, but this is just silly imo. How many features have SI introduced but flat out don't work? Dynamic youth rating is the main one I can think of. Match preparedness also had no effect on performance as shown by EBFM's experiment and SI just removed that feature after being called out lmao. But heck, look at the FM Arena attribute testing. Many of the attributes highlighted in green or blue as being important for the position by the game flat out don't have much impact on the ME. It's surprising someone on this forum would continue to blindly take SI at face value when even they don't seem to understand how their game is running.
Brother, I agree with you. I just wanted to post it to show that they are at least trying to adapt to the user's tactics. So you come back to my words...
We all admit there are bugs but you(not you specifically) blame those who point them out to SI and call them toxic. Well done!
Delicious said: And we do expect SI, to filter all the garbage is coming towards them...
Look at a gentleman who wants to have a serious and constructive dialogue!
Congratulations Delicious! Bravo!