ZaZ - Red 3.0

This is Red 3.0, a mix between Red and Blue 3.0. Player roles and instructions were adjusted based on the stats of a full season using Blue 3.0. For example, it was noticed that DLP wasn't producing enough chances to have "Take More Risks", as well as goalkeeper, so they changed to roles that don't force that instruction. In the end, it got pretty similar to this tactic, so I incorporated a couple of instructions that improved performance. It performs similar to Blue 3.0 for strong teams, but delivers better results with weaker teams. Below are the tactics and results from a holiday test with Manchester City and Fulham.


More information, like set pieces, best player attributes or training schedules can be found on the link below.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/884-zaz-blue-3-0/page-1/

Leave a comment if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!

Another great tactic from @ZaZ .

Gpassosbh said: Another great tactic from @ZaZ . Expand

Thanks! It seems to be slightly worse for strong team than Blue 3.0, but my focus was making it stronger to the weak team, for those 160/140 CA tests. I hope someone will test it in that league so I know if it's really better. In my experiments, it's much better than Blue 3.0 for weaker team. Needs more testing from other people for confirmation.

I have been using Phoenix/Blue in my online game with friends and have achieved great success. High scoring (spread across the front 5 players) and solid defence. Biggest problem is with DLP(Su). Even when I play Camavinga he still has very low rating. I understand that rating does not reflect all but it would seem odd for a great player to score so low.

I have changed to Red in the last two games and immediately I noticed a few things.

First, the DM(Su) position now has much better rating. I believe the problem with Blue in that regard is that DLP(Su) is positioned too close to CM(A) so there is "too little" for the DLP(Su) to do save to recover the ball and pass upwards (occasionally long killer pass but rare). Now with DM(Su) you can see that he is positioned half notch downwards so there is more space away from the CM(A). I have a strong feeling that in this game rating is at least partially influenced by how much "work" a player will do during a match. From what I see from the match highlights, the DM(Su) is contributing much more than DLP(Su). There is more interaction with the the back four (given his closer position) and he runs more before passing to other players: in Blue he mainly interacts with CM(A) who is closest to him.

Second, and by similar logic, the DW(Su) contributes more than W(Su) because of their lower position. This made them interact more with the rest of the whole team. In Blue, W(Su) keeps bombing down the sideline to cross from the byline, and to great success, but far too monotone. When the DW(Su) is positioned further down, they would interact with others more, and this instills greater variety in terms of approach play e.g. I now see much more chances created by DW(Su) passing not from the byline but actually down the centre cutting across the opponent team's CB and FB.

Third, I think removing "take more risks" from most players save for CM(A) is a good move. It enhances the quality of the chances and definitely helps maintain possession.

Overall speaking, from what I observe so far, I think Red is a much better version than Blue even for strong/elite teams, provided of course you have the right players in each position. In fact I think Red whilst being a gegenpress does not necessarily need very pacey players. Running is important, but the player interaction and passing around the field mean chances are now created by slicing through the opponent's team rather than a particular player running past your opponent's players.

JTC said: I have been using Phoenix/Blue in my online game with friends and have achieved great success. High scoring (spread across the front 5 players) and solid defence. Biggest problem is with DLP(Su). Even when I play Camavinga he still has very low rating. I understand that rating does not reflect all but it would seem odd for a great player to score so low.

I have changed to Red in the last two games and immediately I noticed a few things.

First, the DM(Su) position now has much better rating. I believe the problem with Blue in that regard is that DLP(Su) is positioned too close to CM(A) so there is "too little" for the DLP(Su) to do save to recover the ball and pass upwards (occasionally long killer pass but rare). Now with DM(Su) you can see that he is positioned half notch downwards so there is more space away from the CM(A). I have a strong feeling that in this game rating is at least partially influenced by how much "work" a player will do during a match. From what I see from the match highlights, the DM(Su) is contributing much more than DLP(Su). There is more interaction with the the back four (given his closer position) and he runs more before passing to other players: in Blue he mainly interacts with CM(A) who is closest to him.

Second, and by similar logic, the DW(Su) contributes more than W(Su) because of their lower position. This made them interact more with the rest of the whole team. In Blue, W(Su) keeps bombing down the sideline to cross from the byline, and to great success, but far too monotone. When the DW(Su) is positioned further down, they would interact with others more, and this instills greater variety in terms of approach play e.g. I now see much more chances created by DW(Su) passing not from the byline but actually down the centre cutting across the opponent team's CB and FB.

Third, I think removing "take more risks" from most players save for CM(A) is a good move. It enhances the quality of the chances and definitely helps maintain possession.

Overall speaking, from what I observe so far, I think Red is a much better version than Blue even for strong/elite teams, provided of course you have the right players in each position. In fact I think Red whilst being a gegenpress does not necessarily need very pacey players. Running is important, but the player interaction and passing around the field mean chances are now created by slicing through the opponent's team rather than a particular player running past your opponent's players. Expand

Thanks for testing! Later I'll see if something from Red can be used in Blue, but it has been really hard to improve Blue as it's very close to optimal for strong teams. I know for a fact that Red is better than Blue for weak team, but most of those tweaks that improve for weaker team makes strong team play worse. In simple words, better players perform well with risky moves, while worse players perform better playing safer.

ZaZ said: Thanks for testing! Later I'll see if something from Red can be used in Blue, but it has been really hard to improve Blue as it's very close to optimal for strong teams. I know for a fact that Red is better than Blue for weak team, but most of those tweaks that improve for weaker team makes strong team play worse. In simple words, better players perform well with risky moves, while worse players perform better playing safer. Expand

Very broadly speaking one notable difference between Blue and Red is that for Blue, you have many more vertical passes and the team is looking to move forward as much as possible, whereas for Red, you can see more interchanges between players building up an attack.

Btw I chose "positive" mentality for Red. This in my view is better to maintain control whilst not undermining attack power (significantly). I will turn to "very attacking" when I am losing by half time. To me I think "attacking" is a bit neither here nor there because even on "positive" mentality the formation is attacking enough already.

I've run an english league test with ZaZ Red - 7 leagues, 14 teams, using worst team and mid-table team from every league, to see how it performs with underdogs across different levels of play and using different teams.
I know that a lot of people think Fulham is the worst team in Premier League, because that's what the game says when you are choosing a team, but once you get into the actual game, and go to media prediction, you can see that West Brom is by far the worst team in EPL.




That's how the teams for the test were chosen - last and mid-table teams according to the media prediction, from Premier League to Vanarama National North/South.

Some info about the save:
- All teams have the same manager with default stats, but with experience and license automatically chosen by the game.
- There is a 5-year embargo placed on all the teams in the game, to reduce randomness a little bit.
- In-game editor has been used only to make managers unsackable
- Holiday mode, squad picked by assman, loaded the tactic, checked "use the current tactic", and holidayed until 30th May

I'll try to run the same test with Blue some time soon.

Here are the results:



Premier League and Championship:



League One and League Two:



Vanarama National:



Vanarama National North/South:

Thanks for the test and thorough explanation. I would like to see the result for Blue to see how they compare. Looking just as it is, it seems bad for West Browwich and Hungerford, but they might just be very weak teams recently promoted. Have to compare with Blue to know for sure.

Yiii.  West Brom.  Pity those Baggies kids who saved up all their lunch money to buy FM21 so they could lead their beloved WBA to glory.

Here are results for Blue:



Red is clearly a better mid table tactic - even if we exclude the bad Chester performance, it got better results with every team apart from Accrington (but still there was only 4 point difference there).
Blue got better results with underdog teams - mainly because how much better it performed with West Brom and Dover - Red got better results with 3/6 of the teams, so part of it could be just randomness.
And it seems like Hungerford is just a really bad team, no matter what tactic you use with it.

Here are the save files if anyone wanted to get more data from them (they were too big to upload directly to fmarena):

Blue - https://www.mediafire.com/file/fflxk98xz5kr6j5/ZaZ_Blue_-_Results.fm/file
Red - https://www.mediafire.com/file/gzmjar1xsfesetb/ZaZ_Red_-_Results.fm/file

Egraam said: Here are results for Blue:



Red is clearly a better mid table tactic - even if we exclude the bad Chester performance, it got better results with every team apart from Accrington (but still there was only 4 point difference there).
Blue got better results with underdog teams - mainly because how much better it performed with West Brom and Dover - Red got better results with 3/6 of the teams, so part of it could be just randomness.
And it seems like Hungerford is just a really bad team, no matter what tactic you use with it.

Here are the save files if anyone wanted to get more data from them (they were too big to upload directly to fmarena):

Blue - https://www.mediafire.com/file/fflxk98xz5kr6j5/ZaZ_Blue_-_Results.fm/file
Red - https://www.mediafire.com/file/gzmjar1xsfesetb/ZaZ_Red_-_Results.fm/file Expand

Thanks, I'll check on it.

I was try  to test it 2 times on mrl base test league. AM choose players. Don't know why, but when I pick fast players FMRTE settings break(

Asstem said: I was try it to test 2 times on mrl base test league. AM choose players. Don't know why, but when I pick fast players FMRTE settings break( Expand

Thank you for testing! It seems to be stronger than Blue for weak teams, so I'm satisfied.

Do you have a light-Red & Dark-Red go-to tactic?

I was buy only fast players

All match play ten)

Asstem said: All match play ten) Expand

Nice one

Concord Rangers were a happy squad in Vanarama south pleased with me & using Zaz blue lying 2nd and looking good.  Switched over to Zaz Red & went on vacation Jan-Mar.  Returned to find the team in a shambles.  Now been back in charge for 6 games using RED.  Losses interspersed with the odd draw.  Visually they look nothing like the old smooth looking Zaz blue team.  I hate them all.  and the assist Man. 
Wish there was a punch-him-in-the-face button.  my moral is now sinking with them & I just abuse them in the change room and swear at them in the shouts.
We're lying fifth thanks to zaz blue's early points.  And should creep into the play-offs.

Concord Rangers were tipped to finish halfway.  But truly Red's killing me.  But I'll persevere with Red.  What to do to win promotion come the play-offs?  It's now April 12th.

Machismo said: Concord Rangers were a happy squad in Vanarama south pleased with me & using Zaz blue lying 2nd and looking good.  Switched over to Zaz Red & went on vacation Jan-Mar.  Returned to find the team in a shambles.  Now been back in charge for 6 games using RED.  Losses interspersed with the odd draw.  Visually they look nothing like the old smooth looking Zaz blue team.  I hate them all.  and the assist Man. 
Wish there was a punch-him-in-the-face button.  my moral is now sinking with them & I just abuse them in the change room and swear at them in the shouts.
We're lying fifth thanks to zaz blue's early points.  And should creep into the play-offs.

Concord Rangers were tipped to finish halfway.  But truly Red's killing me.  But I'll persevere with Red.  What to do to win promotion come the play-offs?  It's now April 12th. Expand

It's very risky to leave stuff to the assistant manager when your squad is small. He is just stupid, using exhausted players, getting everyone injuried and more often than not using players out of position. I suppose you have to first save your team morale. Go to training center and compliment all players that trained well this week (like over 8.0), then warn everyone that trained bad (under 6.2). Then, check the form for the last 5 matches and do the same, complimenting the form of anyone over 7.0 and warning anyone under 6.2. Finally, do the same for the last match, complimenting everyone over 8.0 and warning everyone under 6.2. That will make things slightly better, but you might also need a team talk, which will depend a lot on how your team is doing in the past 5 matches.

Next step is to check medical center for players with high fatigue. Anyone with high fatigue will perform worse, even if they are 100% condition. Either give them vacation or rest them from matches and training, if possible.

Other than that, when your team is overachieving, it's a good idea to give initial pep talks to say there is no pressure, followed by individual talk that you have faith on them. When weak teams overachieve, they very often get pressured and play worse, so you need to ease them up.

Hello Training please ?

Ajax said: Hello Training please ? Expand

First page (of Blue 3.0).

What do you think is the quality where one should transition between red and blue? In particular to improve chances in the champions league.

drhay53 said: What do you think is the quality where one should transition between red and blue? In particular to improve chances in the champions league. Expand

Red does better in those tests that have CA 140 team and CA 165, for the weaker team.  However, I played Blue with great success from the lowest leagues to the top.

BLUE's default is set to POSITIVE where as RED is set to ATTACKING.  I recall for BLUE you were sure POSITIVE was the most effective overall.  So for RED (in this particular case BURNLEY) leave the default as ATTACKING or change to POSITIVE mentality?

Machismo said: BLUE's default is set to POSITIVE where as RED is set to ATTACKING.  I recall for BLUE you were sure POSITIVE was the most effective overall.  So for RED (in this particular case BURNLEY) leave the default as ATTACKING or change to POSITIVE mentality? Expand

Red takes less risks than Blue, so the attacking mentality is used to balance it and keep the offensive power. The mentality should fit the tactic, there isn't a best mentality overall. Void, for example, works better on very attacking than positive.

1) My BPDs Any "NEW TRAIT" to add to their skills for Zaz Red?
2) My DM Any "NEW TRAIT" to add to his skills for Zaz Red?

All are 'trait-less' at the moment.

Machismo said: 1) My BPDs Any "NEW TRAIT" to add to their skills for Zaz Red?
2) My DM Any "NEW TRAIT" to add to his skills for Zaz Red?

All are 'trait-less' at the moment. Expand

In short, you only want traits that enforce what the tactic asks the player to do. Anything else has potential to disrupt the flow of the tactics.

For example, if a position has the instruction "hold back", then add "stay back at all times", but never "get further forward", since that would be opposite of what the tactic asks him to do.