Nobody thinks your testing is good. No one. Aren't you Man City and you leave the rest of the league as it is? Yesterday you had genie scout default ratings as not that bad. No one can take you seriously.
Where did Harvest Green say attributes aren't linear? I haven't read everything he's contributed so must have missed it.
Again this testing is nonsense. In different years the players and opposition will be different. Its of no use at all unless people want to freeze the game the whole time they play it. You contradict yourself with every next master test and change your view like the wind.
Thousands of people and more have used the fm arena results and made the game too easy. Challenges such as win the champions league in 5+ nations, only taking jobs in div2 or below became incredibly easy.
You had Mbappe outside the top20 strikers and obviously lied to say it was Genie scout's fault. Complete lie as in premier league 1 you hadn't set hidden attributes. You lie a lot. And at the time you boldly declared premier league 1 to be the new gold standard. hahahaha. You do make people laugh a lot.
kvasir said: Did you find JR to be the only thing that matters on corners? I had a newgen with 20 JR, 14 STR and something like 3 heading. He scored nowhere near as much as a CB with 17 JR, 17 STR, 15 heading. Anecdotal, sure. And I dropped that save, so I can't tell you if that season was a fluke or the norm. Still, on corners at least, JR doesn't look like the whole story for aerial threat. Expand
Genuinely im not sure. I sort them by jumping reach and then if they tie add together strength and heading and the higher total goes above. But i played retro saves with players who had 20 jumping reach and they could score 50 goals a season.
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since. Anyway, my GS rating puts Work Rate's weight at 25+ across every position, highest for DMs and fullbacks, so yeah.
Lowering the Work rate 1 , it have very serious consequences (goal difference -110),
and it should be ensured that a player has at least 6 and preferably 10 Work rate. A player with a Work rate is not desirable. But continuing to increase Work rate (from 10->20) is low effect. The difference between Work rate 10 and Work rate 20 is relative small.
The 6-point attribute seems to be the threshold for some attributes.
Core attributes are these: Special : Work rate (need to reach 10, higher is useless), Pace, Acceleration, Jumping reach, Dribbling, Balance, Concentration, Anticipation, Determination，Agility.
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since. Anyway, my GS rating puts Work Rate's weight at 25+ across every position, highest for DMs and fullbacks, so yeah. Expand
Well if thats all he said then he didn't say it did he. But no surprise if Bozo is quoting that. He's a liar.
keithb said: Nobody thinks your testing is good. No one. Aren't you Man City and you leave the rest of the league as it is? Yesterday you had genie scout default ratings as not that bad. No one can take you seriously.
Where did Harvest Green say attributes aren't linear? I haven't read everything he's contributed so must have missed it.
Again this testing is nonsense. In different years the players and opposition will be different. Its of no use at all unless people want to freeze the game the whole time they play it. You contradict yourself with every next master test and change your view like the wind.
Thousands of people and more have used the fm arena results and made the game too easy. Challenges such as win the champions league in 5+ nations, only taking jobs in div2 or below became incredibly easy.
You had Mbappe outside the top20 strikers and obviously lied to say it was Genie scout's fault. Complete lie as in premier league 1 you hadn't set hidden attributes. You lie a lot. And at the time you boldly declared premier league 1 to be the new gold standard. hahahaha. You do make people laugh a lot. Expand
ywah, he just holiday the season with man city with a random dude as striker got second position and then he holiday the season with mbappe or harry kane got second position too.
So of course the only way to view is the random dude is as good as mbappe of course.
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since. Lowering the Work rate 1 , it have very serious consequences (goal difference -110),
and it should be ensured that a player has at least 6 and preferably 10 Work rate. A player with a Work rate is not desirable. But continuing to increase Work rate (from 10->20) is low effect. The difference between Work rate 10 and Work rate 20 is relative small.
The 6-point attribute seems to be the threshold for some attributes.
Core attributes are these: Special : Work rate (need to reach 10, higher is useless) Expand
keithb said: Well if thats all he said then he didn't say it did he. But no surprise if Bozo is quoting that. He's a liar. Expand Amazing.
skawkclsrn said: TL;DR: I randomised all 60 attributes of every player in a 20-club league every 75 seconds and let the game holiday through ~16,000 full-engine matches. Pace and Acceleration are worth ~3x anything else. Everything technical measured at or below zero. According to these resutls no attribute has a threshold, they pay linearly 1-20. Once you divide by what a point costs in CA, the best buys are Work Rate, Jumping Reach and the hidden personality attributes, which are (mostly) free.
Method FM's engine is C++ with MSVC RTTI, so every object carries its class name behind the vtable pointer, so you can find every player and scoreline by name instead of hunting offsets. Loop: write a random attribute vector into every squad, sleep 75s while the game holidays, read back and harvest scorelines, repeat every 75s to take into account promoted teams.
Warning that cost me 120,000 matches Match Detail Level decides which simulator runs. On None everything resolves through the Quick Match Engine and effects come out 10x too small in the wrong order. Set the competition to All Competitive Matches. The quick path has its own QME_STAT_MANAGER sitting beside Poisson and Normal distribution objects, so it samples statistics rather than simulating football.
Dataset 15,951 full-engine matches. 47 visible + 5 hidden + 8 personality attributes randomised. CA and PA pinned at 150, morale pinned at 15. Attributes are stored 1-100 and displayed /5; personality attributes sit on a different record at plain 1-20.
Reading the numbers CA is pinned, so ability is a fixed budget and every weight answers "given fixed ability, where is it best spent?" Positioning at -9.6 does not mean Positioning harms you, rather it means CA spent there is not spent on Pace, and that trade costs about 10 points a season.
Validation Fitted on 5,011 matches, tested on 5,011 never used for fitting. Correlation with actual goal difference: Measured weights 0.392; Pace+Acceleration only 0.365; per-position 0.329; CA only 0.318; everything except the speed pair -0.043 Favourable quarter of the test set averages +1.79 goal difference, unfavourable -0.73. A two-segment fit searching every knee from 6 to 16 found no thresholds anywhere.
Global weights, CA cost and value Format: attribute, points per season, (CA cost of one point, points per CA point). CA cost measured separately by ramping a single attribute on an isolated player, R2=0.93. Hidden and personality attributes cost no CA at all. Ratios for near-free attributes are huge because the denominator is tiny, and read those as "free", not as literal multiples. Work Rate is the standout: nearly as valuable as Pace per point of ability, at a third of the cost. Decisions is the worst buy in the game, while the second most expensive attribute and negative. Pressure is worth 14.9 points a season and costs nothing.
Positional weights (0-20 within each group) Acceleration outranks Pace for CB and FB and the order flips further forward which seems plausible. The positional tables predicted worse out of sample than the pooled one (0.329 vs 0.392).
For goalkeepers, read the top two or three only. Reflexes and Agility separate cleanly; below that it is noise, and Handling ranking under Corners is not a finding. One keeper per match against ten outfielders means that column has about a tenth of the statistical power.
Nobody thinks your testing is good. No one. Aren't you Man City and you leave the rest of the league as it is? Yesterday you had genie scout default ratings as not that bad. No one can take you seriously.
Where did Harvest Green say attributes aren't linear? I haven't read everything he's contributed so must have missed it.
Again this testing is nonsense. In different years the players and opposition will be different. Its of no use at all unless people want to freeze the game the whole time they play it. You contradict yourself with every next master test and change your view like the wind.
Thousands of people and more have used the fm arena results and made the game too easy. Challenges such as win the champions league in 5+ nations, only taking jobs in div2 or below became incredibly easy.
You had Mbappe outside the top20 strikers and obviously lied to say it was Genie scout's fault. Complete lie as in premier league 1 you hadn't set hidden attributes. You lie a lot. And at the time you boldly declared premier league 1 to be the new gold standard. hahahaha. You do make people laugh a lot.
kvasir said: Did you find JR to be the only thing that matters on corners? I had a newgen with 20 JR, 14 STR and something like 3 heading. He scored nowhere near as much as a CB with 17 JR, 17 STR, 15 heading. Anecdotal, sure. And I dropped that save, so I can't tell you if that season was a fluke or the norm. Still, on corners at least, JR doesn't look like the whole story for aerial threat.
Genuinely im not sure. I sort them by jumping reach and then if they tie add together strength and heading and the higher total goes above. But i played retro saves with players who had 20 jumping reach and they could score 50 goals a season.
keithb said: Where did Harvest Green say attributes aren't linear? I haven't read everything he's contributed so must have missed it.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/13685-current-24-4-latest-version-full-attribute-test-52000-match-samples/
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since. Anyway, my GS rating puts Work Rate's weight at 25+ across every position, highest for DMs and fullbacks, so yeah.
Lowering the Work rate 1 ,
it have very serious consequences (goal difference -110),
and it should be ensured that a player has at least 6 and preferably 10 Work rate.
A player with a Work rate is not desirable.
But continuing to increase Work rate (from 10->20) is low effect. The difference between Work rate 10 and Work rate 20 is relative small.
The 6-point attribute seems to be the threshold for some attributes.
Core attributes are these:
Special : Work rate (need to reach 10, higher is useless),
Pace, Acceleration, Jumping reach, Dribbling, Balance, Concentration, Anticipation, Determination，Agility.
kvasir said: https://fm-arena.com/thread/13685-current-24-4-latest-version-full-attribute-test-52000-match-samples/
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since. Anyway, my GS rating puts Work Rate's weight at 25+ across every position, highest for DMs and fullbacks, so yeah.
Well if thats all he said then he didn't say it did he. But no surprise if Bozo is quoting that. He's a liar.
keithb said: Nobody thinks your testing is good. No one. Aren't you Man City and you leave the rest of the league as it is? Yesterday you had genie scout default ratings as not that bad. No one can take you seriously.
Where did Harvest Green say attributes aren't linear? I haven't read everything he's contributed so must have missed it.
Again this testing is nonsense. In different years the players and opposition will be different. Its of no use at all unless people want to freeze the game the whole time they play it. You contradict yourself with every next master test and change your view like the wind.
Thousands of people and more have used the fm arena results and made the game too easy. Challenges such as win the champions league in 5+ nations, only taking jobs in div2 or below became incredibly easy.
You had Mbappe outside the top20 strikers and obviously lied to say it was Genie scout's fault. Complete lie as in premier league 1 you hadn't set hidden attributes. You lie a lot. And at the time you boldly declared premier league 1 to be the new gold standard. hahahaha. You do make people laugh a lot.
ywah, he just holiday the season with man city with a random dude as striker got second position and then he holiday the season with mbappe or harry kane got second position too.
So of course the only way to view is the random dude is as good as mbappe of course.
It's a joke really.
kvasir said: https://fm-arena.com/thread/13685-current-24-4-latest-version-full-attribute-test-52000-match-samples/
He said it here, about Work Rate. Not sure about the other attributes, but I remember reading that and I've had a filter set at 6+ Work Rate ever since.
Lowering the Work rate 1 ,
it have very serious consequences (goal difference -110),
and it should be ensured that a player has at least 6 and preferably 10 Work rate.
A player with a Work rate is not desirable.
But continuing to increase Work rate (from 10->20) is low effect. The difference between Work rate 10 and Work rate 20 is relative small.
The 6-point attribute seems to be the threshold for some attributes.
Core attributes are these:
Special : Work rate (need to reach 10, higher is useless)
keithb said: Well if thats all he said then he didn't say it did he. But no surprise if Bozo is quoting that. He's a liar.
Amazing.
skawkclsrn said: TL;DR: I randomised all 60 attributes of every player in a 20-club league every 75 seconds and let the game holiday through ~16,000 full-engine matches.
Pace and Acceleration are worth ~3x anything else.
Everything technical measured at or below zero.
According to these resutls no attribute has a threshold, they pay linearly 1-20.
Once you divide by what a point costs in CA, the best buys are Work Rate, Jumping Reach and the hidden personality attributes, which are (mostly) free.
Method
FM's engine is C++ with MSVC RTTI, so every object carries its class name behind the vtable pointer, so you can find every player and scoreline by name instead of hunting offsets.
Loop: write a random attribute vector into every squad, sleep 75s while the game holidays, read back and harvest scorelines, repeat every 75s to take into account promoted teams.
Warning that cost me 120,000 matches
Match Detail Level decides which simulator runs.
On None everything resolves through the Quick Match Engine and effects come out 10x too small in the wrong order. Set the competition to All Competitive Matches.
The quick path has its own QME_STAT_MANAGER sitting beside Poisson and Normal distribution objects, so it samples statistics rather than simulating football.
Dataset
15,951 full-engine matches.
47 visible + 5 hidden + 8 personality attributes randomised.
CA and PA pinned at 150, morale pinned at 15.
Attributes are stored 1-100 and displayed /5;
personality attributes sit on a different record at plain 1-20.
Reading the numbers
CA is pinned, so ability is a fixed budget and every weight answers "given fixed ability, where is it best spent?"
Positioning at -9.6 does not mean Positioning harms you, rather it means CA spent there is not spent on Pace, and that trade costs about 10 points a season.
Validation
Fitted on 5,011 matches, tested on 5,011 never used for fitting.
Correlation with actual goal difference:
Measured weights 0.392; Pace+Acceleration only 0.365; per-position 0.329; CA only 0.318; everything except the speed pair -0.043
Favourable quarter of the test set averages +1.79 goal difference, unfavourable -0.73.
A two-segment fit searching every knee from 6 to 16 found no thresholds anywhere.
Global weights, CA cost and value
Format: attribute, points per season, (CA cost of one point, points per CA point).
CA cost measured separately by ramping a single attribute on an isolated player, R2=0.93.
Hidden and personality attributes cost no CA at all.
Ratios for near-free attributes are huge because the denominator is tiny, and read those as "free", not as literal multiples.
Work Rate is the standout: nearly as valuable as Pace per point of ability, at a third of the cost. Decisions is the worst buy in the game, while the second most expensive attribute and negative.
Pressure is worth 14.9 points a season and costs nothing.
Positional weights (0-20 within each group)
Acceleration outranks Pace for CB and FB and the order flips further forward which seems plausible.
The positional tables predicted worse out of sample than the pooled one (0.329 vs 0.392).
For goalkeepers, read the top two or three only.
Reflexes and Agility separate cleanly; below that it is noise, and Handling ranking under Corners is not a finding.
One keeper per match against ten outfielders means that column has about a tenth of the statistical power.
Shout out
to mavarobli / mavali / mark17072
@https://fm-arena.com/thread/20087-fmsuperscout-free-open-source-scouting-tool-for-fm26-with-a-meta-score-built-on-fm-arena-attribute-testing/
Anyway, back to the actual thread. It's an interesting approach with results more or less in line with what we already know so that's good. Could maybe argue about some of the attributes especially once broken down by position, but overall seems pretty decent.