Lower League Tactics

by Mark, Jan 17, 2021

All prob gonna go away if 2.0 gonna be tested @Zippo

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@Droid and @Zippo I would be interested in your thoughts on the original question. How do we test the tactics for the Lower Leagues. That was all I was attempting to do. Viola was only behind due to performance with lower ranked sides. I think they were all impressive in my tests but my observation was there was a small but measurable difference.

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Droid said: For me that proves that you can't test tactics by just plugging them and pushing "On Holiday" button. I understand why people tend to test tactics this way because it the simplest way to test, it doesn't require any skill or any efforts but it also gives an inaccurate result even after 1600 matches because the impact of random factors is very significant in this case, any injuries of the key players in your team or any injuries of the key players in the opposition team have a great impact on the result and they can turn everything apart.

Also, the assistant manager is responsible for managing the morale, picking the starting eleven for the tactic but it's been proven many times that even the best assistant manager is very poor at piking the team for many different tactics and he isn't capable managing any morale issue so it's like play roulette.


I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Holiday mode is a valid way to compare tactics when a significant number of matches/seasons is run. In that case, it tests how much a tactic is tolerant to player mistakes (caused by player out of position due to injuries, physical condition, morale or pressure, for example). It's not better or worse than freezing attributes, just a different methodology. Random factors do happen during normal gameplay, and the high number of matches make them behave as a statistical variance instead of as an outlier.

On the other hand, tests like fm-arena and fm-base are more suitable if you want to know how a tactic would behave when your squad is in perfect condition, which can happen often in practice if you are good at managing the squad.

In short, they test different things.

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Mark said: @Droid and @Zippo I would be interested in your thoughts on the original question. How do we test the tactics for the Lower Leagues. That was all I was attempting to do. Viola was only behind due to performance with lower ranked sides. I think they were all impressive in my tests but my observation was there was a small but measurable difference.

If you want to know my experience then whatever tactic I test I get better results in the lower leagues than in the top leagues and I find it's quite logical because it's obvious that in the lower leagues the  AI managers are less "smarter" than the AI managers in the top leagues. Yes, the players are also are less "smarter" in the lower leagues but they are less smarter not only for you but for the AI managers too so you are on par.

I'd say if you find a tactic that allows you winning the title in EPL or La Lige with a mid table team then you'll be killing everyone with this tactic in the lower league.

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ta2199 said: All prob gonna go away if 2.0 gonna be tested @Zippo

I'll add Blue 2.0 in the queue :thup:

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ta2199 said: All prob gonna go away if 2.0 gonna be tested @Zippo

It's funny how it became something about Blue 2.0, when we should be appreciating all effort he put there. I think it's wonderful that people like you, @healmuth or him, among others, test tactics with different approaches. It really helps people improve the tactics. Today Blue 2.0 was on top, but maybe tomorrow there will be a better tactic. We need to be grateful that people are contributing to the community, not demotivate them by doubting their methods or results.

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ZaZ said: It's funny how it became something about Blue 2.0, when we should be appreciating all effort he put there.

Pal, you're exaggerating here. I really don't see anyone tries "demotivate" Mark or saying anything negative about your Blue 2.0.

Guys were just pointing the weak and strong sides of different testing methods and that's all. I'm sure that such discussion can help people to improve their testing methods.

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Lapidus said: Pal, you're exaggerating here. I really don't see anyone tries "demotivate" Mark or saying anything negative about your Blue 2.0.

Guys were just pointing the weak and strong sides of different testing methods and that's all. I'm sure that such discussion can help people to improve their testing methods.


I think they tried to discredit the results. One guy said "that proves you can't just plug and play and push holiday button", which is clearly a way of minimizing his methodology. The other guy said the difference of 4% was too small to mean anything and it was just RNG factors, while another was saying you can't say there is a clear winner, when there is clear statistical relevance to the results.

What I mean is that more people appeared to say something negative than to compliment the effort.

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In my testing, players, their stats, moral and condition is frozen. I also test 80 matches in a custom league per run. The basis of the league is provided by FMB and I’ve modified it further. Is it perfect? No, there’s no perfect testing but it certainly is more accurate  than load tactic and press holiday.

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ZaZ said: I think they tried to discredit the results. One guy said "that proves you can't just plug and play and push holiday button", which is clearly a way of minimizing his methodology. The other guy said the difference of 4% was too small to mean anything and it was just RNG factors, while another was saying you can't say there is a clear winner, when there is clear statistical relevance to the results.

What I mean is that more people appeared to say something negative than to compliment the effort.


I think if you aren't ready to hear any criticism or a different opinion then you shouldn't post anything on the internet :)

Constructive criticism is a good thing, it helps evaluating and improving.

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Lapidus said: I think if you aren't ready to hear any criticism or a different opinion then you shouldn't post anything on the internet :)

Constructive criticism is a good thing, it helps evaluating and improving.




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Lapidus said: I think if you aren't ready to hear any criticism or a different opinion then you shouldn't post anything on the internet :)

Constructive criticism is a good thing, it helps evaluating and improving.



No point arguing like this.

healmuth said: In my testing, players, their stats, moral and condition is frozen. I also test 80 matches in a custom league per run. The basis of the league is provided by FMB and I’ve modified it further. Is it perfect? No, there’s no perfect testing but it certainly is more accurate  than load tactic and press holiday.

You are right if you mean loading a tactic once then pressing play. If you do the same thing for 1800 matches, then you start extracting useful information from the randomness. Either people like it or not, random facts have an impact on the tactics. Tests must aim to remove outliers, not to remove randomness. Freezing stats is one way to remove the outliers, but not the only way.

P.S.: Not saying holiday is the best way to test tactics, only that it is a different way, with different goals and outcomes.

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@ZaZ A few interesting observations as I drill into the data.

Sides that had a lower number of players in the Squad were either worse off or more variable in their results. Weymouth had the smallest squad with just 16 players when I stopped them recruiting. It would only take a suspension or injury to impact them.

The stats that they all seemed to have that were consistently high for their sides were (in order):

Determination
Natural Fitness
Work rate
Stamina
Team work
Acceleration

Of these there were 3 that increased in importance as you moved up through the grades ie you needed these to increase as you move through the leagues:

Work rate
Stamina
Team work

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Mark said: @ZaZ A few interesting observations as I drill into the data.

Sides that had a lower number of players in the Squad were either worse off or more variable in their results. Weymouth had the smallest squad with just 16 players when I stopped them recruiting. It would only take a suspension or injury to impact them.

The stats that they all seemed to have that were consistently high for their sides were (in order):

Determination
Natural Fitness
Work rate
Stamina
Team work
Acceleration

Of these there were 3 that increased in importance as you moved up through the grades ie you needed these to increase as you move through the leagues:

Work rate
Stamina
Team work


I was thinking of checking team report to see the attributes of each of the ten teams, then list how much % of league average for each attribute. Then I could check what attributes are more important for each strategy.

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Starting a new campaign with Leamington, worst team from Vanarama North. The goal is to win the UCL. Tactics used will be Blue 2.0 and Light Blue 2.0 (for resting).


First, let me present the best player:


Anyway, my first steps were setting training intensity to double for rested players, arrange 10 friendlies for income (cancelled the free ones) and hire a new assistant manager and new physios. I also fired my director of football to save money.

I have no scouts and won't hire any since finances are pretty bad, but I checked players interested in transfer and proposed a trial to 30 of them.

For pre-season, my trainings are Endurance/Match Practice on tuesdays and saturdays, and Endurance/Physical on thursday. When official matches start, my trainings are Defensive Shape/Match Practice on tuesday and Attacking Movement/Teamwork on thursday.

I will report interesting developments here, every 5 or 10 matches.

P.S.: During pre-season, a team called Undy invited me for a testimonial match, because some player was retiring. My team made 10 goals against them. Seriously, you shouldn't do that many goals in a celebration match, I feel sorry for the player. Usually you even allow the retiring player to score just so the fans can have a good time...

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Looking forward to seeing your progress...

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Pitch dimensions were set to maximum allowed. I choose this for two reasons. First, longer pitch means there is more space behind defenders for through balls. Second, broader pitch means defenders are more spaced, allowing my players to move into channels. Since most my goals are from through balls, this is the obvious choice.

Another choice I made was to use the Light Blue 2.0 for matches in pre-season, to avoid injuries. Those matches were also controlled by assistant manager, since I don't like to control friendlies.

Finally, I got rid of all deadwood with transfers or loans and hired some trialists so I have 11 players in my squad. I am now completing my squad with loans from other teams from upper leagues.

The current stats from my team compared to my league are presented below.



I choose young players because they usually have lower wages. I wanted them to be fast to score from through balls and catch when the opponent does the same. High vision allows my players to see opportunities for through balls, but unfortunately they will waste most of those with their low passing. They are also pretty poor in heading, which I tried to balance with some extra height.

For reference, I will show some of the best players from my team, from different positions.



This last one, Brown-Sterling, was in my team from another playthrough, in Sweden. He isn't the best striker in numbers, but his consistency in Sweden made me go for him again. I have high hopes that he will score a lot.

For the media, they don't seem to believe in my team very much, giving me extremely low odds in the season preview.


Time to dig in for 6 loanees for the season, to make a squad of 17 players. One goalkeeper, one left winger, one right winger, one defender, one midfielder and one striker. I will scout them offering 4 weeks trials and will hope to loan for free from upper leagues, before season starts. Wish me luck!

P.S.: In case anyone is curious, my max budget is 240k for wages, zero for transfers. I am currently spending 188k in wages. My projected income is 320k and my projected expenditure is 447k, so I am at a loss of 127k for this year. My rule is to always end the year positive, but it isn't always possible in the first year. I hope I can get some money from the cups.

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Finally the first official match is coming. In FA Cup,I got an easy draw of Hednesford (amateur team) at home. Since I really need the money and can't afford losing in the first match, I will train Set Pieces Delivery as well as Defensive Shape, Teamwork and Attacking Movement. I also intentionally set the last friendlies to be very easy so my team improves the atmosphere and morale.

For loans, I got a defender, midfielder and left winger, all for free. The other positions wanted me to pay 100% of wage, so I sent them back from trial and got some others from Vanarama National. None of them is good enough for first team, but they are still decent for rotation.

I will record some best moments and show the video here later. I can only hope my team won't get complacent and lose.

P.S.: I changed the tactics to Blue 2.0 and went to the match. For team talk, it's a bit tricky, because you don't want to make your team complacent, so you can't tell them to relax, at the same time that you must calm them down since it's the first match. My approach for that is to tell them to show why they are the favorites, then tell defendes and midfielders that I have faith in them. Highlights soon.

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Match was played with Blue 2.0 on first half and Light Blue 2.0 on second half. Since it was 3-0 at half time, three substitutions were made to rotate the squad.

Two goals were scored from through balls while the third was scored from a cross. The team conceded by the end due to an individual mistake, not because of the tactic. If you look at the player (DM, covering while defenders were marking), it clearly moved to the wrong position to intercept the ball, which could have been caused by low stats or by complacency.

No shout was used during the match, but I should have praised when winning. By the end, I complimented the victory since it was the first match. The match was pretty poor, but that's the level of matches in the lower leagues, when stats are all gray.

Next time I will record the match live instead of showing replay. I will upload all matches to youtube, but will link here the interesting ones.

P.S.: I told you Brown-Sterling was a goal scoring machine!

P.S.2: Just managed to loan a goalkeeper, right winger and striker. Before the first match of Vanarama North, media asked me who would be relegated, but I prefer to not comment as that could fuel a team against me later on. My work now is to keep the players relaxed, since it's the first matches, then focused when they start overachieving, since complacency will be an issue. I will come back after 5 or 10 matches with a summary of what happened.

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Four more matches passed. The first match in Vanarama North ended 0-0, but I can't blame a team of youth in their first official league match.

Second match was away from home against a stronger team in Vanarama North, with no time to rest for the next match in FA Cup, against another amateur team at home. Since I really need the money from qualifying in the cup, I decided to play with Light Blue 2.0, to keep my players fresh. Despite the cautious tactic, we managed to score a beautiful goal in the first half and a throw in goal to win 2-0. The result was nice to raise the spirits of my players for the decisive FA Cup match.

In the third match, we faced Radcliffe at home for the FA Cup. Since the team is amateur, we won without much trouble. The referee robbed our opponent by giving us a penalty, then we got two more goals from through balls to win 3-0. Too bad or right winger got injured for over a month.

The last match was against a stronger team at home for Vanarama North. Spirits are sky high and some players are showing signs of tiredness and complacency. My team dominated from start to end, but we only managed to win by a tight 1-0 with another robbed penalty for us. We didn't pay the referee like @ta2199 when he got 7 penalties in a match, but two non existent penalties in a row, in different matches, would still be enough to think something shady is going on behind the curtains. Anyway, used Light Blue 2.0 on second half to hold the result and rest players.

Next match is FA Cup against a team from Vanarama National League, one league above us. We are expected to lose and leave the cup now, but you never know, since we are playing home. To surprise the opponent, I set up some Set Pieces Delivery training this week. Let's hope it we have a good day against them.




All matches can be watched here: Matches
The video descriptions being an explanation of what happened during the match, including the reason for team talks, change of tactics or substitutions.

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Played six more matches, two of them being in the FA Cup. In both the cup matches, I used the same strategy to frustrate the opponent using Light Blue 2.0 before switching to Blue 2.0 and take advantage of nervous players. I had nothing to lose, but they would get more nervous as time passes without winning. For reference, Notts County was one division above, while Gilligham was three leagues above. Luckily, I won both and got almost 50k euros from prize money and television.

In the league, I won two matches, got a tie and a defeat. Currently I am in second place in the league and will face a team from one league above in next match of FA Cup, away from home. A victory would allow me to have a positive projection by the end of season, allowing me to hire five more players and have two players in each position. However, I won't count eggs before they hatch. In the meantime, I invited 30 players willing to transfer in a 4 weeks trial, to scout them.

Below is the match schedule with results and my finances. From 127k of projected loss, we are now at 16k of loss, which is pretty good.


I also picked the match against Gilligham as the highlight. It wasn't the most exciting match, but it was a psychological battle. Keep an eye at opponent's body language and watch them going nervous as time passes. They started with two nervous players in the first half, when I was using Light Blue 2.0 to frustrate them. By the second half, they had five nervous players, giving me an edge when I switched to Blue 2.0.



Now I have three more matches before FA Cup. Since the first match, we play twice a week, which is making this run into a battle to manage the condition of players.

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ZaZ said: He tested Blue 2.0, which is better than original Blue. That tactic didn't get selected for tests here.

@Mark , can you make a compilation of each teams average attributes, from team report? It would be interesting to know the first touch, determination and other attributes to find some correlation.


I have struggled to find too much correlation. What I thought might help was to turn the approach around.

We covered 6 leagues with the top ranked side and the bottom ranked side for each league. So I looked at the top ranked side that performed the worst and looked at the attributes where they were ranked top or second in the league overall going in to the season. Salford performed the worst of the top ranked sides, being substantially below the other top ranked sides with just 1.844 points per game, and even below one of the bottomed ranked sides.

Interestingly they also had the highest number of attribute rankings at highest or second highest in the league. I looked at all these attributes, because you would expect if these mattered Salford would have performed much better.

Interestingly Salford only had 2 attributes that ranked badly, both at 23rd for their league (the remainder average just over 4th). These attributes were Acceleration and Pace. The second worst performing side of the top ranked sides, Notts County also performed badly on just these 2 attributes plus Determination. Adding weight to these attributes, is that St Albans were ranked 2nd and 3rd for these in their league and they were easily our best lowest ranked side beating Salford in points per game. All the top 4 sides in our test were ranked above average in Acceleration and 3 were ranked above average for Pace.

Safe to say Acceleration and Pace are very important.

Next I looked at where an attribute was ranked 4th or better for the 3 of the 4 top scoring sides and not in the top 10 for Salford or Notts. The one that stood out is Vision. Ranked 4th or better for the 3 top sides in our test, and 6th for the other top 4 side. Ranked 13th for Salford and 10th for Notts.

I will put Vision in at 3rd in most important attributes.

Out of the top 4 sides in our test, 3 had Decisions ranked number 1 in their league with the other being well above average at 7th. Salford and Notts had it ranked 2nd and 3rd in their leagues. Not sure. However, St Albans (lowest ranked side in their league) were ranked 6th for Decisions, and finished 6th of our sides, the only top 6 side not to be top ranked.

I think this swings it for Decisions to be the 4th attribute I will be looking for in finding players.

There are 2 other attributes that were of interest, being the only attributes where the top 4 sides in our test all had them ranked 4th or better in their leagues - Composure and Passing. Salford were ranked 1st for Composure and 2nd for Passing, and Notts were ranked 10th for Composure and 9th for Passing. Jury is out but worth thinking about these 2 as well.

PS: @ZaZ, what is happening with the Leamington save.

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Mark said: I have struggled to find too much correlation. What I thought might help was to turn the approach around.

We covered 6 leagues with the top ranked side and the bottom ranked side for each league. So I looked at the top ranked side that performed the worst and looked at the attributes where they were ranked top or second in the league overall going in to the season. Salford performed the worst of the top ranked sides, being substantially below the other top ranked sides with just 1.844 points per game, and even below one of the bottomed ranked sides.

Interestingly they also had the highest number of attribute rankings at highest or second highest in the league. I looked at all these attributes, because you would expect if these mattered Salford would have performed much better.

Interestingly Salford only had 2 attributes that ranked badly, both at 23rd for their league (the remainder average just over 4th). These attributes were Acceleration and Pace. The second worst performing side of the top ranked sides, Notts County also performed badly on just these 2 attributes plus Determination. Adding weight to these attributes, is that St Albans were ranked 2nd and 3rd for these in their league and they were easily our best lowest ranked side beating Salford in points per game. All the top 4 sides in our test were ranked above average in Acceleration and 3 were ranked above average for Pace.

Safe to say Acceleration and Pace are very important.

Next I looked at where an attribute was ranked 4th or better for the 3 of the 4 top scoring sides and not in the top 10 for Salford or Notts. The one that stood out is Vision. Ranked 4th or better for the 3 top sides in our test, and 6th for the other top 4 side. Ranked 13th for Salford and 10th for Notts.

I will put Vision in at 3rd in most important attributes.

Out of the top 4 sides in our test, 3 had Decisions ranked number 1 in their league with the other being well above average at 7th. Salford and Notts had it ranked 2nd and 3rd in their leagues. Not sure. However, St Albans (lowest ranked side in their league) were ranked 6th for Decisions, and finished 6th of our sides, the only top 6 side not to be top ranked.

I think this swings it for Decisions to be the 4th attribute I will be looking for in finding players.

There are 2 other attributes that were of interest, being the only attributes where the top 4 sides in our test all had them ranked 4th or better in their leagues - Composure and Passing. Salford were ranked 1st for Composure and 2nd for Passing, and Notts were ranked 10th for Composure and 9th for Passing. Jury is out but worth thinking about these 2 as well.

PS: @ZaZ, what is happening with the Leamington save.


Thanks for the analysis. About the save, I am waiting for the attribute importance table to complete before I continue, so I can use it to guide my transfers.

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What is the attribute importance table?

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Mark said: What is the attribute importance table?

https://fm-arena.com/table/9-player-attributes-importance/

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I played a couple of matches but didn't upload images or videos to post here yet. I hired 6 morre players so my squad has 23 players, including three goalkeepers. In the matches, I won three three matches and lost one. For my bad luck, I lost because I was resting players for FA Cup, since I need the money. Then, the match was postponed because of rain. Had I played with best squad, I would have climbed to first place in the table.

Other than that, two negative things happened. First, I was hiring a player and didn't know the price for his passport (from Australia) would cost 22k euros. When I saw that, I panicked and tried to cancel the deal, but the price for the passport was already paid. Ended up without the player or the passport, and a debt of 22k. Now my projected loss by the end of season is almost 40k euros.

The other negative thing is that I drew Liverpool in FA Cup in case I win the postponed match, against a team one league above. That's impossible to win, but if I get there, the TV revenue should definitely save my team for the next two or three seasons.

Anyway, gonna play the next couple of matches, for FA Trophy and FA Cup, then I post some results, as well as a picture of my squad attributes.

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Ok, back to Leamington run, worst team in England. Other than what I said in last post, I played for FA Trophy and FA Cup. For FA Trophy, I was quite confident for playing home against a team of similar size. I decided to play with fully rotated team, to rest players for FA Cup and build some happiness with playing time. It almost bit me in the ass since I only managed to win in extra time. It would be pretty embarrassing to leave the Trophy in first match, but FA Cup can bring my finances to another level if I win and face Liverpool.

For FA Cup, I forgot I had three suspended players. It was a very stupid mistake that I do quite often, making me have to play with some tired players and even a gray autogen. Since the team was one division above, I played with Light Blue 2.0 in the first half, to build stress in the opponent, then switched to Blue 2.0 in second half. The match was full of missed opportunities for both sides, ending 0-0, going past extra time and going for penalties. My goalkeeper grabbed one of the kicks and now I am rich. Here are the results.


This is my team and the most important attributes of each player. As you can see, not so bad looking only at those stats, but they are full of sixes, sevens and eights in the other stats. The finances are also there, going from a negative projection to 48k positive, and I will still have the TV revenue from the match against Liverpool (which I will certainly lose). With that, I guess I can get a scout or two and start playing around.


Again, this is the screen that says "you are out of the competition", when I got drawn against Liverpool. Well, I was expecting to fall two matches ago, so can't be so picky.


By the way, I stopped recording videos, as it's annoying to upload them every time and provide a description. This will allow me to progress faster.

Congratulations to Palmeiras for painting America green. I will make a tactic later just to honor them, one of the biggest teams of the world, together with Santos, Boca and River. (I'm from Sweden, just to be clear.)

P.S.: I hired a new striker from Australia, since the one in loan got injured for three months (this time I checked that he had irish nationality, so I don't pay 22k for work permit).

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Haven't played much because of work, but here is some updates. Played eight more matches, being five for Vanarama North, two for FA Trophy and one for FA Cup against Liverpool. Got raped twice, against Liverpool and another team from Vanarama North, one tie and five victories. Unfortunately, there was no TV for the match against Liverpool, so I didn't get rich. However, I am still alive in the Trophy and one victory behind the leader in the League, with one less match. My projected balance for next year is almost 68k, so I will soon start to invest this money in the team. I definitely need to replace Nestor Shako, since he is clearly performing worse than other teammates, probably because he is a slow winger.


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Played a couple more of matches. I am currently leading the league and in the semi-finals of FA Trophy. The results are below.


For finances, I have over 100k of projected balance for next year. I can either hire better players, save to become professional or upgrade my training facilities. I am leaning towards becoming professional first. What are your opinions? I will post the finances and squad below.


Now, I reached the part of the season when I evaluate my squad and decide who will stay for next year and what areas I need to improve. I will show my players position for position and tell what I think of them, but let me know what you think of them as well.

For GK, I have two good ones for my division, with low wages. I am planning to keep them both.


For CD, I will definitely get rid of Joshua King. I plan to keep the other three and hire a new one for the main team. Josef Hefele was a DR that was retrained to DC.



For DR, I am letting Alfie Saunders go and keeping Callum Watts, originally a MC being retrained as DR.


For DL, I am keeping them both.


For DM, I am keping Laurence Wootton and letting Jay Barton go.


For MC, I am planning to keep them both.


For MR, I will also keep both of them. Denilson Carvalho was originally an AMC before being retrained to DR. After I hired Callum Waters, I decided to retrain Denilson as a MR, since he has higher Crossing then Callum. If I find a better MR, I might make Denilson into a DR again.


For ML, I will keep Rayan Clarke and let Nathan Newall go.


For AMC, I plan to keep all of them.



Brown-Sterling is a goal scoring machine, with 23 goals in 24 matches and 7 assists. He performed as good as that in Sweden, which makes it the second time he is the star of my team. For anyone playing in the weakest leagues, make sure to hire this beast.

My strategy for renewing contracts is very simple. Anyone asking more than 30k won't get it. I also want my players to agree low play times, at most as squad player, so I can rotate both players equally if they are evenly matched or let the best in the position play more, in case I hire a very good player for the position. Lower playing times also lead to lower wages.

If it was one of you, what would you do with the money and which players you would let go?

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ZaZ said: I can either hire better players, save to become professional or upgrade my training facilities. I am leaning towards becoming professional first. What are your opinions? I will post the finances and squad below.

I don't think that improving the training facilities would give you any significant benefits but I haven't played much in the lower leagues and I have no idea what benefits you get from becoming professional... could you enlighten me?

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