-5 Points to *PACE* for all positions

prideoffm said: Hi, is the attribute testing is going to be retested due to the new patch 24.2 or it will not make any significant difference from the previous patch? Expand
I don't think so.

Hi, is the attribute testing is going to be retested due to the new patch 24.2 or it will not make any significant difference from the previous patch?

Mark said: Just so you all know, the starting point isn't 10 for all attributes. See post from Zippo. Player starting attributes for Attribute Testing. So things like Pace and acceleration move to 20 for forwards with the plus 5.

And here is the FM Scout Definitive Guide to CA. This does seem to indicate some tapering off for over 16 and under 5.

Hoping this helps inform some of your views. Expand

Yea I saw it myself just before , thank you. I do wonder what the attribute baseline could be though, as that only makes it more complicated. 14->19 passing doesn't do anything, I wonder if 10 or 11 passing would be the same as 14 then..

Just so you all know, the starting point isn't 10 for all attributes. See post from Zippo. Player starting attributes for Attribute Testing. So things like Pace and acceleration move to 20 for forwards with the plus 5.

And here is the FM Scout Definitive Guide to CA. This does seem to indicate some tapering off for over 16 and under 5.

Hoping this helps inform some of your views.

Yarema said: I don't even know where you are getting these cutoffs. Maybe I missed a test somewhere? Expand

It was a user on here that made a test on their own. I'll link it. The increase from 1 to 5 was crazy big. I'll say that in some way you are saying the same as me. The state of a team being 'bad' or 'good' or 'excellent', could be seen as thresholds, the only problem is that it's not a slow decrease in effectivness , but rather a sudden one.

Link : https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/28005/

DreadPirateRoberts said: I don't think that is the answer tho. From 1 -> 5, basically every single attribute has big impact on the result. Once you surpass 5-10, suddenly only like 7 attributes have any effect at all. The effectivness of attributes do not happen incrementally, but rather all of the effectivness lie in the first 5-10 points. They go from being astronomically important, to being disregarded completely. Surely if for example passing is hugely important from 1 to 5, it wouldn't be completely useless by the time it reaches 10 if your theory is correct. How come the drop off is so insanely huge ? Expand

I don't even know where you are getting these cutoffs. Maybe I missed a test somewhere?

Yarema said: It's hard to say whether there are diminishing returns on attribute gains or what I suspect it's just harder to achieve higher scores. Going from bad to good is much easier than from good to excellent. Maybe if 5 pace scored 60 points, 10 pace would also be only 81 and not 91.

And anyone reading into anything within 2 points ... just don't. Expand

I don't think that is the answer tho. From 1 -> 5, basically every single attribute has big impact on the result. Once you surpass 5-10, suddenly only like 7 attributes have any effect at all. The effectivness of attributes do not happen incrementally, but rather all of the effectivness lie in the first 5-10 points. They go from being astronomically important, to being disregarded completely. Surely if for example passing is hugely important from 1 to 5, it wouldn't be completely useless by the time it reaches 10 if your theory is correct. How come the drop off is so insanely huge ?

It's hard to say whether there are diminishing returns on attribute gains or what I suspect it's just harder to achieve higher scores. Going from bad to good is much easier than from good to excellent. Maybe if 5 pace scored 60 points, 10 pace would also be only 81 and not 91.

And anyone reading into anything within 2 points ... just don't.

DreadPirateRoberts said: I feel like you are not quite reading what I am writing. Please answer this question; how come adding +5 in passing doesn't improve results at all, but removing 5 passing suddenly makes a difference? The tests are done by making every stat 10 and then increasing/decreasing a certain attribute on all players. This means that any increase in passing above 10 doesn't do a single thing for performance, but if you remove 5 passing, so that the player now is left with 5 passing, it does impact performance negatively. WE are saying that a threshold exists based on these tests. +5 pace did less for performance than -5 pace did. Idk how else to explain this Expand

Ah apologies. Completely misread the initial post. It's been a long day. I need a beer

DreadPirateRoberts said: Well I am pretty sure 2,400 matches equals a margin of error of max 1-2 points. The difference between adding and removing 5 pace is 10 points. Secondly, there have been tests done where someone put all the "unimportant" attributes to 1, which resulted in horrific results. (like losing 9-0 every game) but when they put all those stats to 5, suddenly they only lost something like 3 out of 20 games in the prem with luton, basically a huge difference. This indicates that the attribute threshold is somewhere in between 5 and 10, after which any subsequent increase does nothing! Expand
I'm not joining your discussion I just want to say that last year for FM23 the statistical difference/error of 1-1,5 points was at 4.000 matches. This year the difference might be slightly bigger. Keep that in mind. Thank you

DreadPirateRoberts said: Well I am pretty sure 2,400 matches equals a margin of error of max 1-2 points. The difference between adding and removing 5 pace is 10 points. Secondly, there have been tests done where someone put all the "unimportant" attributes to 1, which resulted in horrific results. (like losing 9-0 every game) but when they put all those stats to 5, suddenly they only lost something like 3 out of 20 games in the prem with luton, basically a huge difference. This indicates that the attribute threshold is somewhere in between 5 and 10, after which any subsequent increase does nothing! Expand

Exact! We know that probably for "normal" attributes the threshold is between 5 and 10. Having said that, pace could also have its own threshold, and if it does, it is certainly above 10, but where?

dzek said: Do you generally put randomness into the equation? Expand

Well I am pretty sure 2,400 matches equals a margin of error of max 1-2 points. The difference between adding and removing 5 pace is 10 points. Secondly, there have been tests done where someone put all the "unimportant" attributes to 1, which resulted in horrific results. (like losing 9-0 every game) but when they put all those stats to 5, suddenly they only lost something like 3 out of 20 games in the prem with luton, basically a huge difference. This indicates that the attribute threshold is somewhere in between 5 and 10, after which any subsequent increase does nothing!

DreadPirateRoberts said: I feel like you are not quite reading what I am writing. Please answer this question; how come adding +5 in passing doesn't improve results at all, but removing 5 passing suddenly makes a difference? The tests are done by making every stat 10 and then increasing/decreasing a certain attribute on all players. This means that any increase in passing above 10 doesn't do a single thing for performance, but if you remove 5 passing, so that the player now is left with 5 passing, it does impact performance negatively. WE are saying that a threshold exists based on these tests. +5 pace did less for performance than -5 pace did. Idk how else to explain this Expand
Do you generally put randomness into the equation?

CBP87 said: Where do I claim that a threshold exists? My point simply is that all the tests done thus far have the same starting attribute default (I don't know the value) but the value is increased or decreased from the starting value. The tests are there to show us what attributes the game relies on, if its been increased to 15 and there is again of +21 then we know that pace is OP and the higher the value the more OP the player is. If you were to compare two players who had similar attributes value but 1 had 10 pace and the other had 15 then the player with 15 would perform better.

The other tests are proving that a increase/decrease in a particularly attribute value isn't as impactful as Pace and Acceleration.




I get and understand where you're coming from. I personally don't see a huge difference in an attribute swing of 1 or 2 points in Acceleration or Pace. I always try and sign players above the league average. Expand

I feel like you are not quite reading what I am writing. Please answer this question; how come adding +5 in passing doesn't improve results at all, but removing 5 passing suddenly makes a difference? The tests are done by making every stat 10 and then increasing/decreasing a certain attribute on all players. This means that any increase in passing above 10 doesn't do a single thing for performance, but if you remove 5 passing, so that the player now is left with 5 passing, it does impact performance negatively. WE are saying that a threshold exists based on these tests. +5 pace did less for performance than -5 pace did. Idk how else to explain this

DreadPirateRoberts said: Well yea I get your point however, removing 5 points of pace clearly had more of an impact than adding 5 points to 10, the difference is like 10 points. This idea of a "threshold" is backed up by the other tests, such as passing and decision, who both showed that removing 5 from 10 had observable impact on the results, compared to adding 5, which did nothing. You claim that such a threshold does not exist, even though all the tests are saying otherwise! Expand

Where do I claim that a threshold exists? My point simply is that all the tests done thus far have the same starting attribute default (I don't know the value) but the value is increased or decreased from the starting value. The tests are there to show us what attributes the game relies on, if its been increased to 15 and there is again of +21 then we know that pace is OP and the higher the value the more OP the player is. If you were to compare two players who had similar attributes value but 1 had 10 pace and the other had 15 then the player with 15 would perform better.

The other tests are proving that a increase/decrease in a particularly attribute value isn't as impactful as Pace and Acceleration.


Stuaret said: I would like to find out if there is diminishing return on attributes, because if that were the case, a player with pace 15, for example, would not be that much worse than one with pace 17. Where instead he could be significantly better than one with pace 13. Expand

I get and understand where you're coming from. I personally don't see a huge difference in an attribute swing of 1 or 2 points in Acceleration or Pace. I always try and sign players above the league average.

Let's change our point of view then. If we start with pace -5 we score 29 points. If we increase pace by 5 (default value) we get 60 points, for a total of +31 points.
If we increase the pace by 5 again we get 81 points, for a total of +21 points. If we increased the pace by another 5, maybe this time we would "only" +15 points for example (I don't know how much the default value was). This is called diminishing return.

It's clear that pace is by far the most important attribute in the game, I'm not disputing that.

I would like to find out if there is diminishing return on attributes, because if that were the case, a player with pace 15, for example, would not be that much worse than one with pace 17. Where instead he could be significantly better than one with pace 13.

CBP87 said: The results indicate that by adding +5 that the result increased by 21 points, how is that diminishing results? Diminishing results is making large changes for little gain however I would say the result of 81 points, increase of 21 points is a big gain in comparison to say work rate which only gained 1 point Expand

Well yea I get your point however, removing 5 points of pace clearly had more of an impact than adding 5 points to 10, the difference is like 10 points. This idea of a "threshold" is backed up by the other tests, such as passing and decision, who both showed that removing 5 from 10 had observable impact on the results, compared to adding 5, which did nothing. You claim that such a threshold does not exist, even though all the tests are saying otherwise!

DreadPirateRoberts said: If you look at the result of -5 decisions test which was also run today, you will see that there is an effect going from 10 to 5 , however going from 10 to 15 doesn't do a single thing, that means there is in fact a point in which attributes start to give diminishing returns, the results are right in front of you Expand

The results indicate that by adding +5 that the result increased by 21 points, how is that diminishing results? Diminishing results is making large changes for little gain however I would say the result of 81 points, increase of 21 points is a big gain in comparison to say work rate which only gained 1 point

CBP87 said: I don't know if I've read your question right but there isn't a diminishing return when increasing the value of an attribute. This test proved that pace is OP and the higher the value the better Expand

If you look at the result of -5 decisions test which was also run today, you will see that there is an effect going from 10 to 5 , however going from 10 to 15 doesn't do a single thing, that means there is in fact a point in which attributes start to give diminishing returns, the results are right in front of you

Stuaret said: Interesting, by adding 5 pace points we gained 21 points, while by subtracting 5 pace points we lost 31 points. Does this mean that there is a diminishing return when increasing the value of an attribute? Have any studies ever been done on this? Expand

I don't know if I've read your question right but there isn't a diminishing return when increasing the value of the pace attribute. This test proved that pace is OP and the higher the value the better

Interesting, by adding 5 pace points we gained 21 points, while by subtracting 5 pace points we lost 31 points. Does this mean that there is a diminishing return when increasing the value of an attribute? Have any studies ever been done on this?