It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data. Expand
Mate I will give it a go on Saturday when the grandkids are here and I cant play. Will try the tests overnight to see how long they run. Tomorrow is rain here and I want to keep my current save going. Really keen to get across set pieces again. Had a little play but not really enough time so far to get anything meaningful. There was one on FM Scout for corners that I was keen to try, and I think that long throws are much better this year, so far. The save helps immensely. Thanks
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data. Expand
I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow.
Mark said: I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow. Expand
Thanks! My test league removed all leagues but english based, as well as all professional clubs outside England. That helps the tests running a bit faster (even better if you block first season transfers).
Anyway, I've noticed the defensive corner and defensive indirect free kicks of my tactics could be improved, so I'll be focusing on those two routines for now.
@Mark, if you have time and interest, wanna test my new set pieces to see how they compare to old? I did hundreds of tests myself, but it's always good to try other methodologies to avoid bias.
ZaZ said: @Mark, if you have time and interest, wanna test my new set pieces to see how they compare to old? I did hundreds of tests myself, but it's always good to try other methodologies to avoid bias. Expand
ZaZ said: Sent you via PM. Sorry for the extra work and feel free to use any methodology you prefer to compare it to other options! Expand
Thanks, I have the Set Piece routine now. I will do what I did last time and compare against the previous results. I take your tactic and change it to the shape of the tactic being tested, then copy a picture of what it should look like in that structure and load the new saved routine into the new tactic. I then compare the test tactic set piece with the one from yours and map the changes. I then change all the set pieces as per the mapping.
@ZaZ, I just want to let you know that we tested your ZaZ - Blue DM tactic with the default attacking throw-ins routine and got 65 points vs 61 points ( the current ZaZ - Blue DM score ).
But I want to add that we tested 1,824 matches because only on the 1,824 matches distance the difference started to appear clearly.
Zippo said: @ZaZ, I just want to let you know that we tested your ZaZ - Blue DM tactic with the default attacking throw-ins routine and got 65 points vs 61 points ( the current ZaZ - Blue DM score ).
But I want to add that we tested 1,824 matches because only on the 1,824 matches distance the difference started to appear clearly. Expand
Yeah, I told Mark via PM that I identified attacking throw-ins as the main flaw in the tactic, which was then changed in this new version. I believe the new throw-ins are better than default, but I will do some tests to compare anyway. Thanks for the tip!
P.S.: What about "Force Opponent Outside"? I see people using it and making defense better, but it doesn't show much difference in my tests.
P.S.2: I just checked the throw-ins of Blue 3.1, which I sent to Mark earlier. It's exactly the same as default, which is funny because that was not intentional. In other words, I played around lots of time just to get to that very same shape that I should have tested first.
ZaZ said: P.S.: What about "Force Opponent Outside"? I see people using it and making defense better, but it doesn't show much difference in my tests. Expand
We've tried adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI in different tactics and it always improved the result but it requires testing 1,824 matches to see that.
Zippo said: We've tried adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI in different tactics and it always improved the result but it requires testing 1,824 matches to see that. Expand
Ok, I will add the instruction and put the tactic to be tested to see how it goes, with the new set pieces. I think it's in a good state and it's nice to hear some confirmation other than my tests. When Mark finishes his tests, he might give some extra input to improve it even further.
P.S.: One more question, @Zippo. I see the top tactics removed the instruction "Play Out Of Defense", but it doesn't seem to give me better results when I remove it in my tests. Did you do any experiments to know if it's good or bad?
ZaZ said: with the new set pieces. Expand Regarding the set pieces I suggest changing only the attacking throw-ins because it seems other set pieces work great.
Zippo said: Regarding the set pieces I suggest changing only the attacking throw-ins because it seems other set pieces work great. Expand
TI was the most changed, all the others are very similar, but I will run some tests here to compare the current version with the old one + new attacking TI and see which is better. Thanks for the tip!
ZaZ said: P.S.: One more question, @Zippo. I see the top tactics removed the instruction "Play Out Of Defense", but it doesn't seem to give me better results when I remove it in my tests. Did you do any experiments to know if it's good or bad? Expand
Removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI only make sense when you also add "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI because it only works properly in tandem.
I've been noticing that for some tactics it improves the result and for some tactic it doesn't if you're interested how it would work for ZaZ - Blue DM then I can check it and report you back later today.
Zippo said: Removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI only make sense when you also add "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI because it only properly works in tandem.
I've been noticing that for some tactics it improves the result and for some tactic it doesn't if you're interested how it would work for ZaZ - Blue DM then I can check it and report you back later today. Expand
It would be nice to know, but I don't want to botter you with every small thing. Should I delete the tactic that I upload to reupload after you come with that answer? That would also give me time to test just changing attacking TI and see if it's better than my current set pieces, but I'm quite positive the new ones are better (else I lost several days testing for nothing).
ZaZ said: It would be nice to know, but I don't want to botter you with every small thing. Should I delete the tactic that I upload to reupload after you come with that answer? Expand Based on our tests, I can say that adding the default attacking throw-ins instead of long throw-ins and adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI improves the result of any tactic including ZaZ - Blue DM. Also it's possible that removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI might further improve the result of ZaZ - Blue DM but I need to check it and I can report you back only later today, if you want to know my opinion then waiting a bit would be the best choice.
Zippo said: Based on our tests, I can say that adding the default attacking throw-ins instead of long throw-ins and adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI improves the result of any tactic including ZaZ - Blue DM. Also it's possible that removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI might further improve the result of ZaZ - Blue DM but I need to check it and I can report you back only later today, if you want to know my opinion then waiting a bit would be the best choice. Expand
I just deleted it. It had zero downloads, so no big deal. Thanks for testing that, it was really bugging me because everyone is using and I couldn't see it working for me.
P.S.: I'm leaving the tactic with new set pieces here in case you or anyone else wants to see it. This is the same version I sent to Mark, with "Force Opponents Outside" added.
ZaZ said: I just deleted it. It had zero downloads, so no big deal. Thanks for testing that, it was really bugging me because everyone is using and I couldn't see it working for me. Expand You know how many factors that increase RNG are eliminated in our testing methodology, not to mention that all the teams including the AI controlled teams and the human controlled teams use the same staring elven in all matches but still it requires testing 1,824 matches to clearly see the difference. Oh, gosh... I can only imagine how many matches it requires testing if there are huge RNG factors present like changing morale, conditions and different players in the starting eleven and so on.
Zippo said: You know how many factors that increase RNG are eliminated in our testing methodology, not to mention that all the teams including the AI controlled teams and the human controlled teams use the same staring elven in all matches but still it requires testing 1,824 matches to clearly see the difference. Oh, gosh... I can only imagine how many matches it requires testing if there are huge RNG factors present like changing morale, conditions and different players in the starting eleven and so on. Expand
My testing league does 1k matches divided in three runs and eight teams (four teams playing 46 matches and four teams playing 38). When some variation seems promising, I run it six times to get better precision. Consider that my PC is pretty old and takes almost 3h per run (actually two runs with four teams each, two from each league). Also, I don't freeze anything, I just edited all players to have maximum consistency, natural fitness and minimum injury proneness. It's obviously less precise than the league you guys have, but still enough to give me some good input after testing, which I use on a rank based statistical analysis before drawing conclusions and finally posting here.
@ZaZ, I've checked and it seems that removing "Play Out Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI doesn't make much difference, at least it can't be clearly seen after a 1,824 matches test for ZaZ - Blue DM.
Zippo said: @ZaZ, I've checked and it seems that removing "Play Out Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI doesn't make much difference, at least it can't be clearly seen after a 1,824 matches test for ZaZ - Blue DM. Expand
Thank you so much! I guess I just need to wait for Mark to see how the new set pieces compare to the old and the others he tested. In the mean time, I guess I can do like you suggested and upload a version with what we know works for sure (default attacking TI and Force Opposition Outside), since people keep bombarding me with messages to release it soon.
I have had to start again as I realised the old tests were under the old match engine. I have picked out 4 set piece routines from original type tactics and will test each against 4 tactics. So 16 tests using 2 teams in each test. I may use further test runs if it doesn't show much. I think one of the set piece routines may be based on an older version of the ZaZ ones but that is how it plays. The routines are from ZaZ 3.2, cptdoggo, Snoop and Super Korean. The tactics will be ZaZ 3.2, Positive Tiki Taka, only my railgun and an update of my Winx v4 (I am always using this now and want to see the best set pieces to use on it. So most are easy to switch between but different enough to make it interesting. I have done the mapping across to one lot of set pieces and started to run tests. I will be away for a week from next Wednesday so hoping to finish before then. Should only be a few days but depends on trip planning and other life commitments.
Mark said: I have had to start again as I realised the old tests were under the old match engine. I have picked out 4 set piece routines from original type tactics and will test each against 4 tactics. So 16 tests using 2 teams in each test. I may use further test runs if it doesn't show much. I think one of the set piece routines may be based on an older version of the ZaZ ones but that is how it plays. The routines are from ZaZ 3.2, cptdoggo, Snoop and Super Korean. The tactics will be ZaZ 3.2, Positive Tiki Taka, only my railgun and an update of my Winx v4 (I am always using this now and want to see the best set pieces to use on it. So most are easy to switch between but different enough to make it interesting. I have done the mapping across to one lot of set pieces and started to run tests. I will be away for a week from next Wednesday so hoping to finish before then. Should only be a few days but depends on trip planning and other life commitments. Expand
Just as a side note, Blue 3.2 has only attacking throw ins changed (all the rest is like Blue DM), while Blue 3.1 has most routines tweaked. I didn't put all tweaks to 3.2 because I don't know yet what actually improves performance, all I know is that they are better in goals conceded and scored from set pieces, but there is more to it like counter attacks and so on.
ZaZ said: Just as a side note, Blue 3.2 has only attacking throw ins changed (all the rest is like Blue DM), while Blue 3.1 has most routines tweaked. I didn't put all tweaks to 3.2 because I don't know yet what actually improves performance, all I know is that they are better in goals conceded and scored from set pieces, but there is more to it like counter attacks and so on. Expand
Ok, I will move back to 3.1. It isn't scheduled for the first set of tests. Thanks for letting me know.
It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
@Mark
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data.
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
@Mark
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data.
Mate I will give it a go on Saturday when the grandkids are here and I cant play. Will try the tests overnight to see how long they run. Tomorrow is rain here and I want to keep my current save going. Really keen to get across set pieces again. Had a little play but not really enough time so far to get anything meaningful. There was one on FM Scout for corners that I was keen to try, and I think that long throws are much better this year, so far. The save helps immensely. Thanks
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
@Mark
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data.
I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow.
Mark said: I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow.
Thanks! My test league removed all leagues but english based, as well as all professional clubs outside England. That helps the tests running a bit faster (even better if you block first season transfers).
Anyway, I've noticed the defensive corner and defensive indirect free kicks of my tactics could be improved, so I'll be focusing on those two routines for now.
So here are the results of the original tests using the ZaZ testing League:
Is it possible for you to upload just the set pieces and not the tactics ?
Mark said: So here are the results of the original tests using the ZaZ testing League:
Thank you for testing! I will run some tests to post results here soon, using the framework of Orange SS, Blue 1.6 and Yellow 3AF.
@Mark, if you have time and interest, wanna test my new set pieces to see how they compare to old? I did hundreds of tests myself, but it's always good to try other methodologies to avoid bias.
ZaZ said: @Mark, if you have time and interest, wanna test my new set pieces to see how they compare to old? I did hundreds of tests myself, but it's always good to try other methodologies to avoid bias.
Happy to assist. Where can I get a copy from
Mark said: Happy to assist. Where can I get a copy from
Sent you via PM. Sorry for the extra work and feel free to use any methodology you prefer to compare it to other options!
ZaZ said: Sent you via PM. Sorry for the extra work and feel free to use any methodology you prefer to compare it to other options!
Thanks, I have the Set Piece routine now. I will do what I did last time and compare against the previous results. I take your tactic and change it to the shape of the tactic being tested, then copy a picture of what it should look like in that structure and load the new saved routine into the new tactic. I then compare the test tactic set piece with the one from yours and map the changes. I then change all the set pieces as per the mapping.
Then run the tests and compare
@ZaZ, I just want to let you know that we tested your ZaZ - Blue DM tactic with the default attacking throw-ins routine and got 65 points vs 61 points ( the current ZaZ - Blue DM score ).
But I want to add that we tested 1,824 matches because only on the 1,824 matches distance the difference started to appear clearly.
Zippo said: @ZaZ, I just want to let you know that we tested your ZaZ - Blue DM tactic with the default attacking throw-ins routine and got 65 points vs 61 points ( the current ZaZ - Blue DM score ).
But I want to add that we tested 1,824 matches because only on the 1,824 matches distance the difference started to appear clearly.
Yeah, I told Mark via PM that I identified attacking throw-ins as the main flaw in the tactic, which was then changed in this new version. I believe the new throw-ins are better than default, but I will do some tests to compare anyway. Thanks for the tip!
P.S.: What about "Force Opponent Outside"? I see people using it and making defense better, but it doesn't show much difference in my tests.
P.S.2: I just checked the throw-ins of Blue 3.1, which I sent to Mark earlier. It's exactly the same as default, which is funny because that was not intentional. In other words, I played around lots of time just to get to that very same shape that I should have tested first.
ZaZ said: P.S.: What about "Force Opponent Outside"? I see people using it and making defense better, but it doesn't show much difference in my tests.
We've tried adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI in different tactics and it always improved the result but it requires testing 1,824 matches to see that.
Zippo said: We've tried adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI in different tactics and it always improved the result but it requires testing 1,824 matches to see that.
Ok, I will add the instruction and put the tactic to be tested to see how it goes, with the new set pieces. I think it's in a good state and it's nice to hear some confirmation other than my tests. When Mark finishes his tests, he might give some extra input to improve it even further.
P.S.: One more question, @Zippo. I see the top tactics removed the instruction "Play Out Of Defense", but it doesn't seem to give me better results when I remove it in my tests. Did you do any experiments to know if it's good or bad?
ZaZ said: with the new set pieces.
Regarding the set pieces I suggest changing only the attacking throw-ins because it seems other set pieces work great.
Zippo said: Regarding the set pieces I suggest changing only the attacking throw-ins because it seems other set pieces work great.
TI was the most changed, all the others are very similar, but I will run some tests here to compare the current version with the old one + new attacking TI and see which is better. Thanks for the tip!
ZaZ said: P.S.: One more question, @Zippo. I see the top tactics removed the instruction "Play Out Of Defense", but it doesn't seem to give me better results when I remove it in my tests. Did you do any experiments to know if it's good or bad?
Removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI only make sense when you also add "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI because it only works properly in tandem.
I've been noticing that for some tactics it improves the result and for some tactic it doesn't if you're interested how it would work for ZaZ - Blue DM then I can check it and report you back later today.
Zippo said: Removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI only make sense when you also add "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI because it only properly works in tandem.
I've been noticing that for some tactics it improves the result and for some tactic it doesn't if you're interested how it would work for ZaZ - Blue DM then I can check it and report you back later today.
It would be nice to know, but I don't want to botter you with every small thing. Should I delete the tactic that I upload to reupload after you come with that answer? That would also give me time to test just changing attacking TI and see if it's better than my current set pieces, but I'm quite positive the new ones are better (else I lost several days testing for nothing).
ZaZ said: It would be nice to know, but I don't want to botter you with every small thing. Should I delete the tactic that I upload to reupload after you come with that answer?
Based on our tests, I can say that adding the default attacking throw-ins instead of long throw-ins and adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI improves the result of any tactic including ZaZ - Blue DM. Also it's possible that removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI might further improve the result of ZaZ - Blue DM but I need to check it and I can report you back only later today, if you want to know my opinion then waiting a bit would be the best choice.
Zippo said: Based on our tests, I can say that adding the default attacking throw-ins instead of long throw-ins and adding "Force Opponent Outside" TI improves the result of any tactic including ZaZ - Blue DM. Also it's possible that removing "Play Out Of Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI might further improve the result of ZaZ - Blue DM but I need to check it and I can report you back only later today, if you want to know my opinion then waiting a bit would be the best choice.
I just deleted it. It had zero downloads, so no big deal. Thanks for testing that, it was really bugging me because everyone is using and I couldn't see it working for me.
P.S.: I'm leaving the tactic with new set pieces here in case you or anyone else wants to see it. This is the same version I sent to Mark, with "Force Opponents Outside" added.
ZaZ said: I just deleted it. It had zero downloads, so no big deal. Thanks for testing that, it was really bugging me because everyone is using and I couldn't see it working for me.
You know how many factors that increase RNG are eliminated in our testing methodology, not to mention that all the teams including the AI controlled teams and the human controlled teams use the same staring elven in all matches but still it requires testing 1,824 matches to clearly see the difference. Oh, gosh... I can only imagine how many matches it requires testing if there are huge RNG factors present like changing morale, conditions and different players in the starting eleven and so on.
Zippo said: You know how many factors that increase RNG are eliminated in our testing methodology, not to mention that all the teams including the AI controlled teams and the human controlled teams use the same staring elven in all matches but still it requires testing 1,824 matches to clearly see the difference. Oh, gosh... I can only imagine how many matches it requires testing if there are huge RNG factors present like changing morale, conditions and different players in the starting eleven and so on.
My testing league does 1k matches divided in three runs and eight teams (four teams playing 46 matches and four teams playing 38). When some variation seems promising, I run it six times to get better precision. Consider that my PC is pretty old and takes almost 3h per run (actually two runs with four teams each, two from each league). Also, I don't freeze anything, I just edited all players to have maximum consistency, natural fitness and minimum injury proneness. It's obviously less precise than the league you guys have, but still enough to give me some good input after testing, which I use on a rank based statistical analysis before drawing conclusions and finally posting here.
@ZaZ, I've checked and it seems that removing "Play Out Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI doesn't make much difference, at least it can't be clearly seen after a 1,824 matches test for ZaZ - Blue DM.
Zippo said: @ZaZ, I've checked and it seems that removing "Play Out Defense" TI and adding "Distribute To Specific Team-Mate" TI doesn't make much difference, at least it can't be clearly seen after a 1,824 matches test for ZaZ - Blue DM.
Thank you so much! I guess I just need to wait for Mark to see how the new set pieces compare to the old and the others he tested. In the mean time, I guess I can do like you suggested and upload a version with what we know works for sure (default attacking TI and Force Opposition Outside), since people keep bombarding me with messages to release it soon.
I have had to start again as I realised the old tests were under the old match engine. I have picked out 4 set piece routines from original type tactics and will test each against 4 tactics. So 16 tests using 2 teams in each test. I may use further test runs if it doesn't show much. I think one of the set piece routines may be based on an older version of the ZaZ ones but that is how it plays. The routines are from ZaZ 3.2, cptdoggo, Snoop and Super Korean. The tactics will be ZaZ 3.2, Positive Tiki Taka, only my railgun and an update of my Winx v4 (I am always using this now and want to see the best set pieces to use on it. So most are easy to switch between but different enough to make it interesting. I have done the mapping across to one lot of set pieces and started to run tests. I will be away for a week from next Wednesday so hoping to finish before then. Should only be a few days but depends on trip planning and other life commitments.
Mark said: I have had to start again as I realised the old tests were under the old match engine. I have picked out 4 set piece routines from original type tactics and will test each against 4 tactics. So 16 tests using 2 teams in each test. I may use further test runs if it doesn't show much. I think one of the set piece routines may be based on an older version of the ZaZ ones but that is how it plays. The routines are from ZaZ 3.2, cptdoggo, Snoop and Super Korean. The tactics will be ZaZ 3.2, Positive Tiki Taka, only my railgun and an update of my Winx v4 (I am always using this now and want to see the best set pieces to use on it. So most are easy to switch between but different enough to make it interesting. I have done the mapping across to one lot of set pieces and started to run tests. I will be away for a week from next Wednesday so hoping to finish before then. Should only be a few days but depends on trip planning and other life commitments.
Just as a side note, Blue 3.2 has only attacking throw ins changed (all the rest is like Blue DM), while Blue 3.1 has most routines tweaked. I didn't put all tweaks to 3.2 because I don't know yet what actually improves performance, all I know is that they are better in goals conceded and scored from set pieces, but there is more to it like counter attacks and so on.
ZaZ said: Just as a side note, Blue 3.2 has only attacking throw ins changed (all the rest is like Blue DM), while Blue 3.1 has most routines tweaked. I didn't put all tweaks to 3.2 because I don't know yet what actually improves performance, all I know is that they are better in goals conceded and scored from set pieces, but there is more to it like counter attacks and so on.
Ok, I will move back to 3.1. It isn't scheduled for the first set of tests. Thanks for letting me know.
Mark said: Ok, I will move back to 3.1. It isn't scheduled for the first set of tests. Thanks for letting me know.
Thanks! The routines I want to confirm their performance are all in 3.1.
Just found some small tweak that improves attacking corners a bit.