Training and development for young players

by Mark, Jan 10, 2022

Today I ran a test to see if the Assistant Manager would change your training set up on holiday tests. Turns out they don't. They don't even change the individual position or focus training. So I am now keen to test training set up ups and their impact on player development. Our recent advice from our friends from China on their observations using machine learning have fueled this.

Firstly I will use the same league I used for the Genie Scout rating test. I will use the same 7 teams. Testing will involve a base test, and then use 4 training schedules to ascertain the best two. I have selected ZaZ, FC Cadoni, Passion FC and a hybrid that I use - lets call it MDW. If you have another training schedule that is working really well please let me know and I will consider including it. After selecting the best two I am going to test individual focus using my old approach and the one suggested by the machine learning guys.

It might take me a while to get my act together but hang in there and keep your eyes on this for the results. It might be a game changer.

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The intent with the 7 sides is to make the managers unsackable, and then drop their main players to reserves. I will bring in their best 22 best potential players by position. Lock in play the selected players if possible, and see how they develop over a season. The best development is the winner.

The second part will be to test the individual focus for the best training tactics. Once again it will be based on improvement.

Please let me know if you think I should adjust the methodology.

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Remember to run default training for reference too! It would also be nice to see how much the training affects results (if possible), since some training schedules are more focused in match bonuses.

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In your initial assessment, was the AM in charge of general and individual training?

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ZaZ said: Remember to run default training for reference too! It would also be nice to see how much the training affects results (if possible), since some training schedules are more focused in match bonuses.

I will definitely run with the AM training first as a base.


CBP87 said: In your initial assessment, was the AM in charge of general and individual training?

Yes, I didn't touch training in the previous runs as I thought the AM would change anything I did anyhow.

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Excited to see this

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I agree, this is quite interesting.

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I have downloaded the Genie Scout data from the base save and selected all the squads. Each team will have 28 players, all from their U18 and U23 squads. All squad players were selected by their Ability Difference, that is the difference between Potential Ability and Current Ability, with the player having the highest gap getting the first position in the squad. I take the best side I can get as the run on eleven and then pick a reserve for each position but only a single DC and STC. This makes up 9 reserves. I am not sure how the AM will select players outside my first 11 but I have added 3 reserves, selecting a further GK, DC and STC. And then there are 5 additional players. I am also hoping to include Man City this time.

My theory is that the AM will choose from the reserves next but time will tell if this works. I have set all the managers up as unsackable. I am now importing all training schedules that I will be testing. I have added RDF and Hook on top of Passion4FM, FC Cadoni and ZaZ, plus of course mine. It should take about a day per 5 tests for each of the training schedules which will make it a week roughly. Probably do it quicker but that's what I am allowing.

If anyone has thoughts on this let me know. I am hoping to finish the set up this evening and start the testing tomorrow afternoon.

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can u link the schedules u will be testing? thanks in advance for all your work

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BiTeL33T said: can u link the schedules u will be testing? thanks in advance for all your work

Sure I will get to that in the next 24 hours.

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I have hit a few problems so changing tack slightly. Most of the clubs seem to override my selections, with only Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle adhering to the players preferred. Manchester City throw everything out so I will not waste my time with them.

The approach now is to reduce the main squad to 22 players with the most potential to improve. Select the first eleven and make the second eleven available for the U18 team. I will still control the training of all these players. All other players will be in the U23 squad. I am hoping the second eleven will at least get game time albeit at a much lower level. For the 3 sides that seem to abide by the rules I will have a comparison between levels of playing experience on development. For the other 4 sides I would expect to have the second eleven still playing at U18 level, so a full 7 teams with comparable experience. With the first eleven for non complying 4 sides I doubt they will get much playing time so any improvement will be all down to training.

So we will have 3 interesting groupings to analyze. I will start running the control 5 runs now, leaving all the training to the AM. I will just recheck all the selections etc prior to the first full run.

Out of interest the player with the most potential in the Newcastle squad played all the games in the trial and improved from a current ability of 55.2% (potential ability 77.4%) to current ability of 64.4% in one season. The whole first eleven made pretty impressive amounts of improvement.

Here are the training schedules I will be using:

Passion4FM

FMS

Hoods

ZaZ

MDW

RDF

FC Cadoni

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tracking the results

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Thanks for this test will be watching closely

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Given there seems to be a bit of interest I thought I owed it to you all to give an update. I have finished the 5 runs of the base testing and I will finish the 5 runs of Passion4FM training schedule tonight. I have downloaded all the data I am interested in from the base testing, and there is an awful lot of it. I have build the structure for the analysis tool and have put the original, pre test, data in. It is more time consuming than I had hoped but I think the worst of it is behind me.

After running the base testing a couple of things were thrown up. Firstly, I think I can use Man City as they did keep the selections, they just changed tactics and selected their best players for games. The U18s were the ones I nominated. Also, they are using whatever training I put in.

The second thing is more of a problem. Chelsea and Spurs seem to be reverting back to when I first did the squads so they are not using the players I want in the correct squads. It is consistent though so will be the same scenario for each tactic. It just means we have less players in the grouping of EPL players and a new group who play both EPL and U18s right through the season.

Another minor hiccup has been the nomenclature between the Genie Scout downloads the the ones directly out of the game. But I am only using the ones out of the game now to ensure nothing much changes between each run and have stopped trying to read it into the analysis.

These oddities mean we have a few more groupings now. Overall we have 176 players we are looking at. Each test will cover around 40 games for EPL/cups and for U18s. So players will be playing 30-40 games a test, with 5 tests per training schedule or 150-200 games to analyze each schedule. We will have them all training for 10 months per test run or around 43 weeks each test, 215 weeks each training schedule.

Of the 176 players, 11 will be playing both U18 and EPL games, so mostly over 50 games per season, 16 will be playing the full EPL season of around 40 games, 66 will be playing the full U18 season with a bit of bench time and the odd run in the EPL, and 61 will be doing all the training in the main squad and only get the odd bench spot and maybe replace an injured player once or twice a season. The remaining 22 are the Man City players who are using a different tactic, and are split equally into the last two groups and will probably be included in those groups unless their data is dramatically different.

I should have the first bit of analysis done in the next day or so and the tests will just keep running regardless.

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A recap, I am doing this to determine which schedule provides the most improvement in the players. All players are under 21, not in the current Main Squad and are listed as having the most improvement ie difference between CA and PA.

I ended up excluding Man City players as their results were the only ones jumping around a bit.

So 154 players, 5 tests for each of the 7 schedules plus the default AM selected one all over 5 tests. The equivalent of around 6000 player seasons. I put the individual training on the 7 schedules to playing position and role. On the default/base schedule I left it to the AM who went with their preferred position.

I looked at the results in 2 ways, firstly against overall CA improvement and the second against the improvement in the position played and trained against. I decided the latter was more reflective of what I would be looking for. If there is a lot of interest I will share the other version, but to be honest there isn't a lot between them.

Observations

The 2 things impacting the most appear to be the number of games and the higher the level the games the better. For example, where players had no or very limited game time their improvement averaged going from 56.1% CA to 57.8% CA or 1.7% CA in a season. 

Those in the U18 team playing a full season improved slightly better, the increase being 3% for the season.

The big gains were for those who played the full season in the Main Team averaging a 5.2% gain in CA over the season. And those that were active in both squads and playing upward of 50 games, did even better averaging 6.1% increase in CA.

So there is a lot to be said for playing your potential stars in the main side for as long as possible during the season.

In terms of the schedules tested, the results seemed to run pretty consistently across the tests. The best 2 schedules were pretty much the best across all categories, with a gap back to 3rd and then a bigger gap to the rest.



Passion4FM appears to be our winner, from RDF and then MDW. All the 7 I was interested in beat leaving the training to your AM, so I think there is benefit in picking one of these schedules and using it or even mixing it up a bit.

I am going to relook at the best 3 and try and improve on these results. I will share any improved training schedule when I am confident I can beat the current front runner. I am also going to look at the impact of different Individual Focus training on these top 3 schedules.

My next testing will be to go back to the League of Nations test League and look at the performance side of using the schedules. Once again using the ZaZ Blue DM tactic on sides that are all basically 160 CA across the board. This time I can tackle the 7 tactics in a single test and compare. I will run 5 tests again after setting the baseline. Let me know your thoughts

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Mark said: A recap, I am doing this to determine which schedule provides the most improvement in the players. All players are under 21, not in the current Main Squad and are listed as having the most improvement ie difference between CA and PA.

I ended up excluding Man City players as their results were the only ones jumping around a bit.

So 154 players, 5 tests for each of the 7 schedules plus the default AM selected one all over 5 tests. The equivalent of around 6000 player seasons. I put the individual training on the 7 schedules to playing position and role. On the default/base schedule I left it to the AM who went with their preferred position.

I looked at the results in 2 ways, firstly against overall CA improvement and the second against the improvement in the position played and trained against. I decided the latter was more reflective of what I would be looking for. If there is a lot of interest I will share the other version, but to be honest there isn't a lot between them.

Observations

The 2 things impacting the most appear to be the number of games and the higher the level the games the better. For example, where players had no or very limited game time their improvement averaged going from 56.1% CA to 57.8% CA or 1.7% CA in a season. 

Those in the U18 team playing a full season improved slightly better, the increase being 3% for the season.

The big gains were for those who played the full season in the Main Team averaging a 5.2% gain in CA over the season. And those that were active in both squads and playing upward of 50 games, did even better averaging 6.1% increase in CA.

So there is a lot to be said for playing your potential stars in the main side for as long as possible during the season.

In terms of the schedules tested, the results seemed to run pretty consistently across the tests. The best 2 schedules were pretty much the best across all categories, with a gap back to 3rd and then a bigger gap to the rest.



Passion4FM appears to be our winner, from RDF and then MDW. All the 7 I was interested in beat leaving the training to your AM, so I think there is benefit in picking one of these schedules and using it or even mixing it up a bit.

I am going to relook at the best 3 and try and improve on these results. I will share any improved training schedule when I am confident I can beat the current front runner. I am also going to look at the impact of different Individual Focus training on these top 3 schedules.

My next testing will be to go back to the League of Nations test League and look at the performance side of using the schedules. Once again using the ZaZ Blue DM tactic on sides that are all basically 160 CA across the board. This time I can tackle the 7 tactics in a single test and compare. I will run 5 tests again after setting the baseline. Let me know your thoughts


I'm actually surprised my training schedule was better than base considering it's not focused in gaining attributes, but in improving your team performance for the current season. If it's not too much to ask, can you dismember the training schedules in categories, saying how many of each sessions it has per week? That way we could try to see some pattern for what training session seems to be more efficient in improving attributes.

Also, if it's not much to ask, can you compare the gains in pace and acceleration of the tactics? My training schedule has heavy focus on those two attributes, so if it gains as much as other tactics in quickness, that would still be good enough to me.

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@Mark, @ZaZ

I remember we did some tests trying to figure out what factors(except the attributes) make players to develop faster and we found the following factors had the most influence:

- The intensity of the training. The higher intensity, the higher development rate.
- The quality of the training facility.
- The quality of the coaches.
- The amount of competitive matches a player participates during a season.
- The quality of competitive matches (the competition reputation).
- The ratings a player gets in matches.

Different training schedules didn't have any significant influences on the development rate, they just were responsible for the distribution of points between the attributes.

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Zippo said: @Mark, @ZaZ

I remember we did some tests trying to figure out what factors(except the attributes) make players to develop faster and we found the following factors had the most influence:

- The intensity of the training. The higher intensity, the higher development rate.
- The quality of the training facility.
- The quality of the coaches.
- The amount of competitive matches a player participates during a season.
- The quality of competitive matches.
- The ratings a player gets in matches.

Different training schedules didn't have any significant influences on the development rate, they just were responsible for the distribution of points between the attributes.


You guys could make that info easily available somewhere! So many cool things you tested, but since there is no pinned post in the forums, we just don't see it!

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ZaZ said: You guys could make that info easily available somewhere! So many cool things you tested, but since there is no pinned post in the forums, we just don't see it!

At some point when I have a bit more more free time I'll make a detailed post about the players development and training.

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Zippo said: At some point when I have a bit more more free time I'll make a detailed post about the players development and training.

Also that other about preferred foot, since people ask about that every other day.

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Zippo said: @Mark, @ZaZ

I remember we did some tests trying to figure out what factors(except the attributes) make players to develop faster and we found the following factors had the most influence:

- The intensity of the training. The higher intensity, the higher development rate.
- The quality of the training facility.
- The quality of the coaches.
- The amount of competitive matches a player participates during a season.
- The quality of competitive matches.
- The ratings a player gets in matches.

Different training schedules didn't have any significant influences on the development rate, they just were responsible for the distribution of points between the attributes.


Pretty surprise that the rating of the player affect his development :D

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EDIT: Found it, sorry :angel:

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Petrades said: @Mark Is it possible to drop the training schedules overhere?

https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/11368/

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Well we have the results in for the Training Schedule performance tests. I had to change from the original plan as the League of Nations testing environment doesn't allow for training. I went back to the ZaZ EPL environment and once again healed all players at the start of each run. I ran 7 tests with each schedule cycling through each of the 7 teams. As each only has one run with each schedule it is open to impact by injury or send offs so there is a fair margin of error in this test.

The winner this time, but in a photo finish, was ZaZ. Just finishing on top from Passion 4 FM and the other 2 top ones from the development testing. Given the previous testing was a bit more thorough I think I would be weighting preferences towards the previous winners, however as ZaZ has pointed out, his training is targeted towards winning games not player development.

For me, overall I think I will run with Passion 4 FM as it appears to be very close to the top on both counts, and as I said before I will try and improve on it. More to come.

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Mark said: Well we have the results in for the Training Schedule performance tests. I had to change from the original plan as the League of Nations testing environment doesn't allow for training. I went back to the ZaZ EPL environment and once again healed all players at the start of each run. I ran 7 tests with each schedule cycling through each of the 7 teams. As each only has one run with each schedule it is open to impact by injury or send offs so there is a fair margin of error in this test.

The winner this time, but in a photo finish, was ZaZ. Just finishing on top from Passion 4 FM and the other 2 top ones from the development testing. Given the previous testing was a bit more thorough I think I would be weighting preferences towards the previous winners, however as ZaZ has pointed out, his training is targeted towards winning games not player development.

For me, overall I think I will run with Passion 4 FM as it appears to be very close to the top on both counts, and as I said before I will try and improve on it. More to come.



My schedule was designed to bring the best performance for the current season, so if it was losing to other training schedules focused on player development there would be no point using it at all. It makes me kinda happy to know it's at least serving its purpose, because I used it without having ever tested to see if it actually makes any difference.

Anyway, Passion 4 FM schedule seems pretty close in points and development, so it's probably superior and I should check later if anything from there can be used to improve my schedule.

Going a bit off topic, I'm currently testing set pieces and found some good improvement so far. I still have a lot to do specially on defending IFK.

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Do the tests work with FM 21 as well?

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Han106 said: Do the tests work with FM 21 as well?

They should work ok on previous versions. If you look up Passion 4FM he probably had schedules for previous versions.


ZaZ said: My schedule was designed to bring the best performance for the current season, so if it was losing to other training schedules focused on player development there would be no point using it at all. It makes me kinda happy to know it's at least serving its purpose, because I used it without having ever tested to see if it actually makes any difference.

Anyway, Passion 4 FM schedule seems pretty close in points and development, so it's probably superior and I should check later if anything from there can be used to improve my schedule.

Going a bit off topic, I'm currently testing set pieces and found some good improvement so far. I still have a lot to do specially on defending IFK.


I was thinking about set pieces but really wanted to play a bit after all this testing. I look forward to your analysis.

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Nice! Thank you for testing! :)

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Zippo said: At some point when I have a bit more more free time I'll make a detailed post about the players development and training.

Any progress on this @Zippo

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Mark said: Any progress on this @Zippo

Honestly, it's pretty much what has been said already in this thread and some other threads. I really don't have anything important to add to that.

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