If you ever wonder what factors determine the development rate of your players then this post is for you!
I've been noticing that there're many people who wrongly think that in FM the training schedule and training settings are the key factors that determine the development rate of your players and when people don't see their players improving then they wrongly start to blame the training schedule and training settings for that.
Obviously, the training schedule and training settings have some influence on the development rate of your players but there are other factors that have much bigger impact on it than the training schedule.
It would be better to speak about the training schedule as about a tool that helps to direct the development and not to boost it.
Here are some of the factors that have a significant influence on the development rate of your players:
- The difference between "Potential Ability(PA)" and "Current Ability(CA)" of a player. The bigger the difference, the higher development rate is.
- Hidden attributes: "Professionalism" and "Ambition". The higher the attributes, the higher development rate is.
- Appearances number during a season. The higher the appearances number, the higher development is.
- How old a player. The younger, the higher development rate is.
Now, let's look at the result of our test to get a clue about how the factors listed above influence the the development rate of your players.
Test Configuration:
- The season lasts about 7 months ( 76 matches ).
- Players are split into two groups: "Group_1" and "Group_2".
- "Group_1" players participate in all 76 matches during the season.
- "Group_2" players don't participate in matches at all during the season.
- "Current Ability"(CA) of the players at the start of season is "150".
- The Age of the players at the start of the season is "21".
"Group_1" players gain +2.7 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #2 [ Professionalism = 5 / Ambition = 5 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #3 [ Professionalism = 5 / Ambition = 5 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.8 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #4 [ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +3.6 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.4 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #5 [ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +6.6 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.5 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #6 [ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.5 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #7 [ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.1 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #8 [ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #9 [ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.7 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.3 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #10 [ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.9 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #11 [ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +9.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.0 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #12 [ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +10.9 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.3 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- TEST #13 [ Age = 28 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
Players in "Group_1" gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
Players in "Group_2" gain +0.1 "CA" at the end the season. Notice: in this test the "Age" was increased from "21" to "28" and as you can see it made a huge a difference compared to "Test #8" ( all other parameters were the same except the Age ). The CA gain decreased from "+8.4" to "+1.2".
- If you look at the "Test #1" then you'll notice that the players in "Group_1" gained only +2.7 "CA" after 7 months ( 76 matches played ) and that's a very little gain, for example, 1 Point of Acceleration attribute costs about 2.4 "CA" points for a Striker so it would take 1 season just to improve Acceleration attribute by 1 point. You may wonder why the gain was so small, that's because the difference between "PA" and "CA" was only 10 Points ( 160PA-150CA = 10 ) and "Professionalism" & "Ambition" attributes were too low ( about 5 ). So as you can see in that case it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help. The development rate still will be very small or nothing.
- If look at the development rate of the "Group_2" players then you'll notice that the "Group_2" players don't develop at all in any test. That's because in FM if players don't participate in competitive matches then they don't develop so it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help, if a player doesn't participate in competitive matches at regular basis then he won't develop, no matter how good your training schedule is.
- If look at the "Test #13" then you'll notice that increasing Age from "21" to "28" almost stopped the development. It shows that in FM players who are around age 28 don't develop at all and you can't do anything about that and it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help.
- If you look at the "Test #12" then you'll notice that it produced the highest CA gain. That was possible due a huge different difference between PA and CA ( 200 "PA" - 150 "CA" = 50 points difference ) and a very high level of "Professionalism" and "Ambition" attributes, which was "20".
- If you look at the tests then you'll notice that a very strong development happens when a player has at least a 20 points difference between PA and CA, his Professionalism & Ambition attributes are higher than "10", he is younger than 28 years old and he plays at regular basis at least 1 match per week.
Players in "Group_1" gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
Players in "Group_2" gain +0.1 "CA" at the end the season. Notice: in this test the "Age" was increased from "21" to "28" and as you can see it made a huge a difference compared with "Test #8" ( all other parameters were the same except the Age ). The CA gain decreased from "+8.4" to "+1.2".
Zippo said: - If you look at the tests then you'll notice that a very strong development happens when a player has at least a 20 points difference between PA and CA, his Professionalism & Ambition attributes are higher than "10", he is younger than 28 years old and he plays at regular basis at least 1 match per week. Expand
I guess this is the necessary rule for having a rapid attributes grow.
@Zippo, I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other.
Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
dzek said: I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other. Expand
Hey,
We've tested that found that Determination doesn't have a direct influence on the development rate.
Determination is more about how a player reacts to bad events during matches or bad results in general, for example, a player with a high Determination less likely drops his Morale after conceding a goal or being disappointed after losing a match.
dzek said: Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
Well done 👏 Expand
The point at which a player starts to decline or stops developing is determined by a combination of the following factors: the difference between PA and CA and the level of "Professionalism" and "Ambition".
dzek said: @Zippo, I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other.
Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
Well done 👏 Expand
It was already tested. Determination has negligible effect, and professionalism is the most important for growth, and also for keeping attributes at peak for longer.
For age, there is a direct correlation between age and effect of training. The younger they are, the more training impact in attribute gains, and the older they are, the more match experience has impact. Around the age of 18, it's around 50-50, and around the age of 23, match experience counts way more than training. If I remember well, the growth "stops" around the age of 27 or 28.
ZaZ said: Around the age of 18, it's around 50-50, and around the age of 23, match experience counts way more than training. If I remember well, the growth "stops" around the age of 27 or 28. Expand
Here're results for Age = 18 and Age = 21
It looks to develop 18 years old players also must participate in competitive matches and without the participation the development rate will be much smaller.
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Age = 18 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.1 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.1 "CA" at the end the season. -------------------------------------------------------------------
Zippo said: Here're results for Age = 18 and Age = 21
It looks to develop 18 years old players also must participate in competitive matches and without the participation the development rate will be much smaller.
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Age = 18 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.1 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.1 "CA" at the end the season. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Expand
That is without any match on group 2, which shows 18 yo gain more from training than 21 yo, and 21 yo gains more from matches. I would like to see the results for Group_3 and Group_4, with youth matches and friendlies, respectively, which is a common setup for players in development.
And how it looks when You give Your player for loan? When they play on loan increase looks same as they were playing in our main squad? For my experience in 2022 when i gave player for loan and they play in every single game (even 7+ avarage rating) they are not developing at all.
Kaczy said: And how it looks when You give Your player for loan? When they play on loan increase looks same as they were playing in our main squad? For my experience in 2022 when i gave player for loan and they play in every single game (even 7+ avarage rating) they are not developing at all. Expand
I always feel like players develop better in my reserve or youth teams than being loaned out. It might be just because I pay closer attention when they are around, though.
I've just tested with J. Alvarez in Mancity by use FMSE23 tool. Determination is not the most important key attitude in this FM23 anymore. Professional is the key.
Ronaldo De Lima said: I've just tested with J. Alvarez in Mancity by use FMSE23 tool. Determination is not the most important key attitude in this FM23 anymore. Professional is the key. Expand
Determination has never been the most important attribute for the development.
Very interesting. Now that we know that training has very little effect with regards to developing players, i think it would be good to see a test of what actually works other than playing them in the first team, as it sometimes isnt an option to play a much worse player in first team games just because they have potential. for example if you have a world class 5* striker then buy a 20 year old 2.5* wonderkid backup, most people are not benching the 5* just because it helps the 20 year olds development.
perhaps there can be some sort of test made with identical players, say clone the same 20 year old wonderkid, too good for your under 21 team but not good enough to start for your first team, and put him in different scenarios
1.put him in u18 squad (im not sure if this is even allowed as he is 20, but its worth trying) 2.put him in u21 squad 3.keep him in first team squad, he never plays for the first team but make him available to play in u18 and u21 matches 4.loan him to a low league team with poor training/coaches where he will play every week 5.loan him to a good team where he is more of a backup/squad player 6.baseline of just not playing him at all in any game 7.optionally you could maybe add any other scenario you can come up with other than actually using him in first team matches, (something like where he never starts games but comes off the bench in cup games, wouldnt be able to work with holidaying through the season though).
then holiday for the year, or play the season out a few times and see which is most effective.
it would also be interesting to see what coaching attributes matter if at all. does having a coaching team where certain attributes such as working with youngsters make any difference to the development
luisanjao said: Has anyone tried to train only speed and leave the default position? this decreases the load, would it not help in gaining speed training?
sorry my bad english Expand
As far as I know, players always train one position, be it the one you chose, or their default. Therefore, it's better to choose the position where you want them to play, because they might think they are players from some completely different position.
I also find that the number of appearances, the difference between CA/PA and the hidden attributes Professionalism and Ambition are the major factors when it comes to the development of players.
Regarding player development: what is the best way to spot a wonderkids potential ability? Currently I have been looking at scouts evaluation with potential stars and also some time is says "can develop a lot", but wondering if there is any more accurate way of saying.
Found a wonderkid 17 year old with 16 finishing, 16 dribbling, 16 technical, 15 pace/accelaration, 17 work rate (decent 11-13 most other relevant ratings for striker). My scout say 2 + 1 potential star ability. But I know that that player is already one of the best in my club based on those stats. How do you scouts for talent when scouts give such low rating to these players?
Great discussion guys, there's nothing more interesting in FM than trying to get the best out of youth talents. @ZaZ can I ask, are you using the same training schedule in Fm23 that you developed last year which focusses mainly on attacking/,defending/physical training along with match practice, whilst avoiding most other options?
Also I'm not sure if this belongs here, but do we know anything which causes attributes to decrease despite players getting first team game time? This might have been addressed before so apologies if I've missed it. I have an IF who is 20yrs old, has a difference of roughly 20 between CA and PA and is playing most first team games. I checked his attributes recently and noticed they had downwards arrows on them. Does anyone know what causes this and how it can be fixed? I currently have his focus on "quickness" and same training schedule as rest of the squad which is the Zaz schedule from FM22.
kjordafen said: Regarding player development: what is the best way to spot a wonderkids potential ability? Currently I have been looking at scouts evaluation with potential stars and also some time is says "can develop a lot", but wondering if there is any more accurate way of saying.
Found a wonderkid 17 year old with 16 finishing, 16 dribbling, 16 technical, 15 pace/accelaration, 17 work rate (decent 11-13 most other relevant ratings for striker). My scout say 2 + 1 potential star ability. But I know that that player is already one of the best in my club based on those stats. How do you scouts for talent when scouts give such low rating to these players? Expand
Usually, young players with high attributes is a good indicator. I usually check their physical attributes, because someone with very high physical attributes at the age of 16 or 17 will most likely become a monster in the future. Determination is another attribute that wonderkids usually start with 20.
Sharpy said: Great discussion guys, there's nothing more interesting in FM than trying to get the best out of youth talents. @ZaZ can I ask, are you using the same training schedule in Fm23 that you developed last year which focusses mainly on attacking/,defending/physical training along with match practice, whilst avoiding most other options?
Also I'm not sure if this belongs here, but do we know anything which causes attributes to decrease despite players getting first team game time? This might have been addressed before so apologies if I've missed it. I have an IF who is 20yrs old, has a difference of roughly 20 between CA and PA and is playing most first team games. I checked his attributes recently and noticed they had downwards arrows on them. Does anyone know what causes this and how it can be fixed? I currently have his focus on "quickness" and same training schedule as rest of the squad which is the Zaz schedule from FM22. Expand
Yeah, the same schedule because their results didn't change much in FM23. Attack and defending still give the best growth after match practice, and physical is needed to grow speed and endurance.
About the decrease in attributes, players go through rebalance of attributes every now and then, causing some attributes go decrease to accommodate their CA. Internally, attributes actually go up to 100, so an attribute 19 is actually represented as a value close to 95. That means a value can decrease to 94, or increase to 96, and still be shown as 19 (causing it to have a negative arrow, even without showing any decrease). That is not a big deal, and what matters is the growth over a longer period of time, instead of growth in an isolate week.
Hello all - reviving this thread with a simple question (apologies if asked before). Im playing a tactic that uses defensive wingers (DWs) and have a promising winger coming from my intake.
I fear if I train him as a DW (to suit my tactic), some of his progression will go towards attributes like tackling (highlighted for DW) and therefore hamper his progression. I could train him as a winger (W) but then whenever I use him on my tactic, his 'position familiarity' will not be full.
My question is - does position familiarity influence on the players performance? Should I still train this promising winger to be a DW, wasting some attributes or directly train him as a W?
Guidito said: Hello all - reviving this thread with a simple question (apologies if asked before). Im playing a tactic that uses defensive wingers (DWs) and have a promising winger coming from my intake.
I fear if I train him as a DW (to suit my tactic), some of his progression will go towards attributes like tackling (highlighted for DW) and therefore hamper his progression. I could train him as a winger (W) but then whenever I use him on my tactic, his 'position familiarity' will not be full.
My question is - does position familiarity influence on the players performance? Should I still train this promising winger to be a DW, wasting some attributes or directly train him as a W?
Thanks in advance. Expand
To add onto this I remember ZaZ tweeted he had run some trials and training players in different roles but the same position had little to no impact on win rate, so has any test been done to confirm that when you train a player to a certain role the highlighted attributes are more likely to increase than those that aren't (pretending they have full equal attributes across the park so CA cost has minimal effect) and therefore beneficial to train roles that highlight attributes which are proven to matter more over the roles used in the tactic that is being used
Why do some players not develop at all? for example, I have a 21 year old defense (95 CA). He plays every game, his morale is high, he trains well, but he hasn't improved a single point all season. What it comes from? I will add that I run a team in the 2 bundesliga
Kamas1 said: Why do some players not develop at all? for example, I have a 21 year old defense (95 CA). He plays every game, his morale is high, he trains well, but he hasn't improved a single point all season. What it comes from? I will add that I run a team in the 2 bundesliga Expand
Mostly from professionalism. With a bit of ambition and determination too
Hey there,
If you ever wonder what factors determine the development rate of your players then this post is for you!
I've been noticing that there're many people who wrongly think that in FM the training schedule and training settings are the key factors that determine the development rate of your players and when people don't see their players improving then they wrongly start to blame the training schedule and training settings for that.
Obviously, the training schedule and training settings have some influence on the development rate of your players but there are other factors that have much bigger impact on it than the training schedule.
It would be better to speak about the training schedule as about a tool that helps to direct the development and not to boost it.
Here are some of the factors that have a significant influence on the development rate of your players:
- The difference between "Potential Ability(PA)" and "Current Ability(CA)" of a player. The bigger the difference, the higher development rate is.
- Hidden attributes: "Professionalism" and "Ambition". The higher the attributes, the higher development rate is.
- Appearances number during a season. The higher the appearances number, the higher development is.
- How old a player. The younger, the higher development rate is.
Now, let's look at the result of our test to get a clue about how the factors listed above influence the the development rate of your players.
Test Configuration:
- The season lasts about 7 months ( 76 matches ).
- Players are split into two groups: "Group_1" and "Group_2".
- "Group_1" players participate in all 76 matches during the season.
- "Group_2" players don't participate in matches at all during the season.
- "Current Ability"(CA) of the players at the start of season is "150".
- The Age of the players at the start of the season is "21".
- The best training faculties facilities.
- "Five" stars coaches in every area.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #1
[ Professionalism = 5 / Ambition = 5 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +2.7 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #2
[ Professionalism = 5 / Ambition = 5 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #3
[ Professionalism = 5 / Ambition = 5 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.8 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.2 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #4
[ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +3.6 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.4 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #5
[ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +6.6 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.5 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #6
[ Professionalism = 10 / Ambition = 10 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +0.5 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #7
[ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.1 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #8
[ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #9
[ Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.7 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.3 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #10
[ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 160 ]
"Group_1" players gain +4.9 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #11
[ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +9.5 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.0 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #12
[ Professionalism = 20 / Ambition = 20 / Potential Ability = 200 ]
"Group_1" players gain +10.9 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.3 "CA" at the end the season.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #13
[ Age = 28 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
Players in "Group_1" gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
Players in "Group_2" gain +0.1 "CA" at the end the season.
Notice: in this test the "Age" was increased from "21" to "28" and as you can see it made a huge a difference compared to "Test #8" ( all other parameters were the same except the Age ). The CA gain decreased from "+8.4" to "+1.2".
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions & Observations
- If you look at the "Test #1" then you'll notice that the players in "Group_1" gained only +2.7 "CA" after 7 months ( 76 matches played ) and that's a very little gain, for example, 1 Point of Acceleration attribute costs about 2.4 "CA" points for a Striker so it would take 1 season just to improve Acceleration attribute by 1 point. You may wonder why the gain was so small, that's because the difference between "PA" and "CA" was only 10 Points ( 160PA-150CA = 10 ) and "Professionalism" & "Ambition" attributes were too low ( about 5 ). So as you can see in that case it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help. The development rate still will be very small or nothing.
- If look at the development rate of the "Group_2" players then you'll notice that the "Group_2" players don't develop at all in any test. That's because in FM if players don't participate in competitive matches then they don't develop so it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help, if a player doesn't participate in competitive matches at regular basis then he won't develop, no matter how good your training schedule is.
- If look at the "Test #13" then you'll notice that increasing Age from "21" to "28" almost stopped the development. It shows that in FM players who are around age 28 don't develop at all and you can't do anything about that and it doesn't matter whether you have the best training schedule, perfect coaches and training facilities - it won't help.
- If you look at the "Test #12" then you'll notice that it produced the highest CA gain. That was possible due a huge different difference between PA and CA ( 200 "PA" - 150 "CA" = 50 points difference ) and a very high level of "Professionalism" and "Ambition" attributes, which was "20".
- If you look at the tests then you'll notice that a very strong development happens when a player has at least a 20 points difference between PA and CA, his Professionalism & Ambition attributes are higher than "10", he is younger than 28 years old and he plays at regular basis at least 1 match per week.
Great stuff as always, Zippo.
Zippo said: -------------------------------------------------------------------
TEST #13
[ Age = 28 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
Players in "Group_1" gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
Players in "Group_2" gain +0.1 "CA" at the end the season.
Notice: in this test the "Age" was increased from "21" to "28" and as you can see it made a huge a difference compared with "Test #8" ( all other parameters were the same except the Age ). The CA gain decreased from "+8.4" to "+1.2".
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly, it's kinda shocking to see how drastically the development decreases when players reach the age of 28.
For such players it requires at least about 2-3 seasons just to increase Acceleration or Pace by 1 point without decreasing other attributes.
Zippo said: - If you look at the tests then you'll notice that a very strong development happens when a player has at least a 20 points difference between PA and CA, his Professionalism & Ambition attributes are higher than "10", he is younger than 28 years old and he plays at regular basis at least 1 match per week.
I guess this is the necessary rule for having a rapid attributes grow.
I wonder about the difference between first team matches, youth competition matches and friendlies.
ZaZ said: I wonder about the difference between first team matches, youth competition matches and friendlies.
No doubts, it'd be great to know the difference between them and if we figure out how to test it properly then I'll let you know.
@Zippo, I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other.
Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
Well done 👏
dzek said: I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other.
Hey,
We've tested that found that Determination doesn't have a direct influence on the development rate.
Determination is more about how a player reacts to bad events during matches or bad results in general, for example, a player with a high Determination less likely drops his Morale after conceding a goal or being disappointed after losing a match.
dzek said: Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
Well done 👏
The point at which a player starts to decline or stops developing is determined by a combination of the following factors: the difference between PA and CA and the level of "Professionalism" and "Ambition".
dzek said: @Zippo, I think there is another attribute which determine player growth instead all the above and this is Determination. If you can make more tests including Determination and then another tests to see which of the three attributes(Professionalism, Ambition and Determination) have more impact to each other.
Another idea with this crucial tests is to find the peak age of each position for player growth so we can know when a player cant grow more and it starts to downgrade his attributes due to age. I know maybe this will not be so accurate to find the peak age of each position for different players but we maybe find a general peak age +/-1.
Well done 👏
It was already tested. Determination has negligible effect, and professionalism is the most important for growth, and also for keeping attributes at peak for longer.
For age, there is a direct correlation between age and effect of training. The younger they are, the more training impact in attribute gains, and the older they are, the more match experience has impact. Around the age of 18, it's around 50-50, and around the age of 23, match experience counts way more than training. If I remember well, the growth "stops" around the age of 27 or 28.
ZaZ said: Around the age of 18, it's around 50-50, and around the age of 23, match experience counts way more than training. If I remember well, the growth "stops" around the age of 27 or 28.
Here're results for Age = 18 and Age = 21
It looks to develop 18 years old players also must participate in competitive matches and without the participation the development rate will be much smaller.
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[ Age = 21 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
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[ Age = 18 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.1 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.1 "CA" at the end the season.
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Zippo said: Here're results for Age = 18 and Age = 21
It looks to develop 18 years old players also must participate in competitive matches and without the participation the development rate will be much smaller.
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[ Age = 21 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +8.4 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +1.2 "CA" at the end the season.
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[ Age = 18 / Professionalism = 15 / Ambition = 15 / Potential Ability = 170 ]
"Group_1" players gain +7.1 "CA" at the end the season.
"Group_2" players gain +2.1 "CA" at the end the season.
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That is without any match on group 2, which shows 18 yo gain more from training than 21 yo, and 21 yo gains more from matches. I would like to see the results for Group_3 and Group_4, with youth matches and friendlies, respectively, which is a common setup for players in development.
And how it looks when You give Your player for loan? When they play on loan increase looks same as they were playing in our main squad?
For my experience in 2022 when i gave player for loan and they play in every single game (even 7+ avarage rating) they are not developing at all.
Kaczy said: And how it looks when You give Your player for loan? When they play on loan increase looks same as they were playing in our main squad?
For my experience in 2022 when i gave player for loan and they play in every single game (even 7+ avarage rating) they are not developing at all.
I always feel like players develop better in my reserve or youth teams than being loaned out. It might be just because I pay closer attention when they are around, though.
I've just tested with J. Alvarez in Mancity by use FMSE23 tool. Determination is not the most important key attitude in this FM23 anymore. Professional is the key.
Ronaldo De Lima said: I've just tested with J. Alvarez in Mancity by use FMSE23 tool. Determination is not the most important key attitude in this FM23 anymore. Professional is the key.
Determination has never been the most important attribute for the development.
Very interesting. Now that we know that training has very little effect with regards to developing players, i think it would be good to see a test of what actually works other than playing them in the first team, as it sometimes isnt an option to play a much worse player in first team games just because they have potential. for example if you have a world class 5* striker then buy a 20 year old 2.5* wonderkid backup, most people are not benching the 5* just because it helps the 20 year olds development.
perhaps there can be some sort of test made with identical players, say clone the same 20 year old wonderkid, too good for your under 21 team but not good enough to start for your first team, and put him in different scenarios
1.put him in u18 squad (im not sure if this is even allowed as he is 20, but its worth trying)
2.put him in u21 squad
3.keep him in first team squad, he never plays for the first team but make him available to play in u18 and u21 matches
4.loan him to a low league team with poor training/coaches where he will play every week
5.loan him to a good team where he is more of a backup/squad player
6.baseline of just not playing him at all in any game
7.optionally you could maybe add any other scenario you can come up with other than actually using him in first team matches, (something like where he never starts games but comes off the bench in cup games, wouldnt be able to work with holidaying through the season though).
then holiday for the year, or play the season out a few times and see which is most effective.
it would also be interesting to see what coaching attributes matter if at all. does having a coaching team where certain attributes such as working with youngsters make any difference to the development
We really need to find a way how to test if there's a difference regarding the development between a participation in competitive or friendly matches
Something tells me that a participation in friendly matches won't do anything, sadly.
I thought this was interesting
Evidence Based Training
Has anyone tried to train only speed and leave the default position? this decreases the load, would it not help in gaining speed training?
sorry my bad english
luisanjao said: Has anyone tried to train only speed and leave the default position? this decreases the load, would it not help in gaining speed training?
sorry my bad english
As far as I know, players always train one position, be it the one you chose, or their default. Therefore, it's better to choose the position where you want them to play, because they might think they are players from some completely different position.
I also find that the number of appearances, the difference between CA/PA and the hidden attributes Professionalism and Ambition are the major factors when it comes to the development of players.
Regarding player development: what is the best way to spot a wonderkids potential ability? Currently I have been looking at scouts evaluation with potential stars and also some time is says "can develop a lot", but wondering if there is any more accurate way of saying.
Found a wonderkid 17 year old with 16 finishing, 16 dribbling, 16 technical, 15 pace/accelaration, 17 work rate (decent 11-13 most other relevant ratings for striker). My scout say 2 + 1 potential star ability. But I know that that player is already one of the best in my club based on those stats. How do you scouts for talent when scouts give such low rating to these players?
Great discussion guys, there's nothing more interesting in FM than trying to get the best out of youth talents. @ZaZ can I ask, are you using the same training schedule in Fm23 that you developed last year which focusses mainly on attacking/,defending/physical training along with match practice, whilst avoiding most other options?
Also I'm not sure if this belongs here, but do we know anything which causes attributes to decrease despite players getting first team game time? This might have been addressed before so apologies if I've missed it. I have an IF who is 20yrs old, has a difference of roughly 20 between CA and PA and is playing most first team games. I checked his attributes recently and noticed they had downwards arrows on them. Does anyone know what causes this and how it can be fixed? I currently have his focus on "quickness" and same training schedule as rest of the squad which is the Zaz schedule from FM22.
kjordafen said: Regarding player development: what is the best way to spot a wonderkids potential ability? Currently I have been looking at scouts evaluation with potential stars and also some time is says "can develop a lot", but wondering if there is any more accurate way of saying.
Found a wonderkid 17 year old with 16 finishing, 16 dribbling, 16 technical, 15 pace/accelaration, 17 work rate (decent 11-13 most other relevant ratings for striker). My scout say 2 + 1 potential star ability. But I know that that player is already one of the best in my club based on those stats. How do you scouts for talent when scouts give such low rating to these players?
Usually, young players with high attributes is a good indicator. I usually check their physical attributes, because someone with very high physical attributes at the age of 16 or 17 will most likely become a monster in the future. Determination is another attribute that wonderkids usually start with 20.
Sharpy said: Great discussion guys, there's nothing more interesting in FM than trying to get the best out of youth talents. @ZaZ can I ask, are you using the same training schedule in Fm23 that you developed last year which focusses mainly on attacking/,defending/physical training along with match practice, whilst avoiding most other options?
Also I'm not sure if this belongs here, but do we know anything which causes attributes to decrease despite players getting first team game time? This might have been addressed before so apologies if I've missed it. I have an IF who is 20yrs old, has a difference of roughly 20 between CA and PA and is playing most first team games. I checked his attributes recently and noticed they had downwards arrows on them. Does anyone know what causes this and how it can be fixed? I currently have his focus on "quickness" and same training schedule as rest of the squad which is the Zaz schedule from FM22.
Yeah, the same schedule because their results didn't change much in FM23. Attack and defending still give the best growth after match practice, and physical is needed to grow speed and endurance.
About the decrease in attributes, players go through rebalance of attributes every now and then, causing some attributes go decrease to accommodate their CA. Internally, attributes actually go up to 100, so an attribute 19 is actually represented as a value close to 95. That means a value can decrease to 94, or increase to 96, and still be shown as 19 (causing it to have a negative arrow, even without showing any decrease). That is not a big deal, and what matters is the growth over a longer period of time, instead of growth in an isolate week.
Hello all - reviving this thread with a simple question (apologies if asked before).
Im playing a tactic that uses defensive wingers (DWs) and have a promising winger coming from my intake.
I fear if I train him as a DW (to suit my tactic), some of his progression will go towards attributes like tackling (highlighted for DW) and therefore hamper his progression.
I could train him as a winger (W) but then whenever I use him on my tactic, his 'position familiarity' will not be full.
My question is - does position familiarity influence on the players performance?
Should I still train this promising winger to be a DW, wasting some attributes or directly train him as a W?
Thanks in advance.
Guidito said: Hello all - reviving this thread with a simple question (apologies if asked before).
Im playing a tactic that uses defensive wingers (DWs) and have a promising winger coming from my intake.
I fear if I train him as a DW (to suit my tactic), some of his progression will go towards attributes like tackling (highlighted for DW) and therefore hamper his progression.
I could train him as a winger (W) but then whenever I use him on my tactic, his 'position familiarity' will not be full.
My question is - does position familiarity influence on the players performance?
Should I still train this promising winger to be a DW, wasting some attributes or directly train him as a W?
Thanks in advance.
To add onto this I remember ZaZ tweeted he had run some trials and training players in different roles but the same position had little to no impact on win rate, so has any test been done to confirm that when you train a player to a certain role the highlighted attributes are more likely to increase than those that aren't (pretending they have full equal attributes across the park so CA cost has minimal effect) and therefore beneficial to train roles that highlight attributes which are proven to matter more over the roles used in the tactic that is being used
@ZaZ care to elaborate?
This was the post I was referring to if you would like to take a look at it https://twitter.com/ZaZFM/status/1556151462945865729
Why do some players not develop at all? for example, I have a 21 year old defense (95 CA). He plays every game, his morale is high, he trains well, but he hasn't improved a single point all season. What it comes from? I will add that I run a team in the 2 bundesliga
Kamas1 said: Why do some players not develop at all? for example, I have a 21 year old defense (95 CA). He plays every game, his morale is high, he trains well, but he hasn't improved a single point all season. What it comes from? I will add that I run a team in the 2 bundesliga
Mostly from professionalism. With a bit of ambition and determination too