I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/. Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/. Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job. Expand
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most different then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ Expand
Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions?
TommyToxic said: Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions? Expand
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table. Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is)
Gracolas said: The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table. Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is) Expand
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
@Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested?
Zeyad said: @Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested? Expand
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
Zippo said: We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E. Expand
Not sure I understand how can you know if for example "aggression" does not have a sufficient impact on the M.E without the attribute test itself? unless I am misunderstanding and it was tested and just not listed because its insignificant?
Zeyad said: Not sure I understand how can you know if for example "aggression" does not have a sufficient impact on the M.E without the attribute test itself? unless I am misunderstanding and it was tested and just not listed because its insignificant? Expand
I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E.
Zippo said: I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E. Expand
I agree that it is extremely unlikely too. I forgot that they were free attributes too so that makes them less interesting as well. I was just curious about the exclusion in the test. Thanks @Zippo and keep up the great work!
topic's point doesn't even need testing tbh we just can look at those tactics with 30- pts which are obviously not even average, but holiday runs screenshots with top teams shows that even with tactic being that bad you can win a lot I've even got almost quadruple with Bayern and 28pts tactic
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help. Expand
This is amazing.. with your initial tests i thought that you were right and tactics barely matter, but now with this new test it all makes sense..
I guess that the community gives higher importance to tactics because maybe in Championship Manager times Diablo tactic sorted everything
Gracolas said: This is amazing.. with your initial tests i thought that you were right and tactics barely matter, but now with this new test it all makes sense..
I guess that the community gives higher importance to tactics because maybe in Championship Manager times Diablo tactic sorted everything Expand
It's the same thing to "test" with "city" "pool" "psg" etc, but what i want to point out that in order to get this kind of scenario with lower teams you need to have better players as this test saying.
But how many time do we need in-game to do that? If you start with a 28pts tactics (maybe you will get even sacked) with a 50+ you might overachieve.
Or you can't really get better players if you are not top4 (UCL) to attract them.
I do agree that some attributes literally break the engine and some other are quite useless, but minimizing the impact of a good tactic is quite , since this happen when you are literally a monster compared to rest normal teams, i do believe only test teams were boosted,means is like you face a league with pool or city (maybe even more) or most likely PSG vs all normal teams.
But another personal thing is when i do reach that kind of level (Since the IA can't really evolve,nor they play/buy the right players or they don't let wonderkids play they will fall behind compared to you), the game literally get boring (too easy). So imho SI should work on that aspect of the game,to get things interesting.
I mean players like Thiaw/Sutalo/Parisi/Bellanova/Scott/Arda/Lucca/Leonardo (there are really alot). Are all wonderkids that doesn't cost alot but they will evolve in little monsters. Thuram boys are good as well, one is a god-tier volante the other is my favorite winger type.
For me there are aspects of the game that have their own "weight", imho all are important in order to overachieve.
-Training -Tactic -Players (the most harder to achieve)
But now you know how to scout good players (which attributes you have to looking for)
And yes the community still believe that tactics play a major role then isn't in reality, i've always said play whatever you do like to see on the pitch more then what is the "top" tactic.
But i am quite sure, someone will ask again :
Best tactic??!1 Best Top/Mid??!1 Best underdog??!1111
Hi,
I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
So let's make a test and see how it works.
We take 2 tactics:
433 toast rack - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak ) - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5123-structured-attack-4-2-3-1-tweak/
And increase the 11 following Attributes of each players in each Human Controlled team by "+2" points:
The most important ones ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
Also, it's very important to understand that the "Playing Position Rating" makes a significant difference too - https://fm-arena.com/table/19-playing-position-testing/
I had no doubts if you put tactics vs attributes fight then the attributes will win it
Hello and thanks for your great work!
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/.
Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job.
nios said: Hello and thanks for your great work!
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/.
Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job.
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
Here's one more test.
This time the 11 attributes will be increased only by just "+1" point instead "+2" as it was done in the previous test:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
Zippo said: Here's one more test.
This time the 11 attributes will be increased only by just "+1" point instead "+2" as it was done in the previous test:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most different then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions?
TommyToxic said: Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions?
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table.
Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is)
Gracolas said: The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table.
Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is)
Ok, let's take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4983-4231-wide/
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
Default Attributes
Increased Attributes
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
@Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested?
For exmaple "main" attributes like:
- Aggression
- Bravery
- Flair
- Crossing
- Heading
and "other" ones like:
- Leadership
- Important Matches (hidden) (this one might be hard to test)
- Natural Fitness
- Weak Foot
and finally the set piece ones: (just curious if they are tested not saying they must be)
- Corners
- Free Kicks
- Long Throws
- Penalties
Zeyad said: @Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested?
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
Zippo said: We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
Not sure I understand how can you know if for example "aggression" does not have a sufficient impact on the M.E without the attribute test itself? unless I am misunderstanding and it was tested and just not listed because its insignificant?
Zeyad said: Not sure I understand how can you know if for example "aggression" does not have a sufficient impact on the M.E without the attribute test itself? unless I am misunderstanding and it was tested and just not listed because its insignificant?
I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E.
Zippo said: I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E.
I agree that it is extremely unlikely too. I forgot that they were free attributes too so that makes them less interesting as well. I was just curious about the exclusion in the test. Thanks @Zippo and keep up the great work!
Great stuff
topic's point doesn't even need testing tbh
we just can look at those tactics with 30- pts which are obviously not even average, but holiday runs screenshots with top teams shows that even with tactic being that bad you can win a lot
I've even got almost quadruple with Bayern and 28pts tactic
Zippo said: Ok, let's take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4983-4231-wide/
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
Default Attributes
Increased Attributes
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
This is amazing.. with your initial tests i thought that you were right and tactics barely matter, but now with this new test it all makes sense..
I guess that the community gives higher importance to tactics because maybe in Championship Manager times Diablo tactic sorted everything
Gracolas said: This is amazing.. with your initial tests i thought that you were right and tactics barely matter, but now with this new test it all makes sense..
, since this happen when you are literally a monster compared to rest normal teams, i do believe only test teams were boosted,means is like you face a league with pool or city (maybe even more) or most likely PSG vs all normal teams.
I guess that the community gives higher importance to tactics because maybe in Championship Manager times Diablo tactic sorted everything
It's the same thing to "test" with "city" "pool" "psg" etc, but what i want to point out that in order to get this kind of scenario with lower teams you need to have better players as this test saying.
But how many time do we need in-game to do that? If you start with a 28pts tactics (maybe you will get even sacked) with a 50+ you might overachieve.
Or you can't really get better players if you are not top4 (UCL) to attract them.
I do agree that some attributes literally break the engine and some other are quite useless, but minimizing the impact of a good tactic is quite
But another personal thing is when i do reach that kind of level (Since the IA can't really evolve,nor they play/buy the right players or they don't let wonderkids play they will fall behind compared to you), the game literally get boring (too easy).
So imho SI should work on that aspect of the game,to get things interesting.
I mean players like Thiaw/Sutalo/Parisi/Bellanova/Scott/Arda/Lucca/Leonardo (there are really alot).
Are all wonderkids that doesn't cost alot but they will evolve in little monsters.
Thuram boys are good as well, one is a god-tier volante the other is my favorite winger type.
For me there are aspects of the game that have their own "weight", imho all are important in order to overachieve.
-Training
-Tactic
-Players (the most harder to achieve)
But now you know how to scout good players (which attributes you have to looking for)
And yes the community still believe that tactics play a major role then isn't in reality, i've always said play whatever you do like to see on the pitch more then what is the "top" tactic.
But i am quite sure, someone will ask again :
Best tactic??!1
Best Top/Mid??!1
Best underdog??!1111
Play POSSESSION!