I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
As you can see it uses 2 x Mezzalas and 1 x Defensive Midfielder:
Now, let's check which attributes the game highlights for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles
Mezzala
Defensive Midfielder
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
Now, the attributes of our midfielders look like this:
Ok, let's test the tactic with the adjusted attributes of the MCs and DM and see how it'll affect the result.
Ouchh... what an unpleasant surprise. The points dropped from 51 to 36 points and the G.D. from "+3" to "-16".
But how that's possible? We just followed to what the game was telling us, it clearly said that "Pace" attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles(it wasn't highlighted) but in reality reducing Pace attribute greatly worsen the result.
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
I must say FM is the weirdest digital game I've ever played.
Almost, every tooltip and description in the game are so vague and misleading, honestly, I really can't recall I've seen something like this in any other digital game.
The only thing is that the game, year after year, is going downhill. If you pay attention to the official SI community, many of them are talking about the downfall of the game and I too wonder how far this can go.
Every year we have a "new" game the same as the previous year. They just upgrade its ugly graphics, introduce new unimportant(and often non-functional) features and it seems the teams working on the game have no cohesion with each other.
If we all start posting errors or omissions from something that came to our attention in-game then we should call the community FM-Buggers.
dzek said: The only thing is that the game, year after year, is going downhill. If you pay attention to the official SI community, many of them are talking about the downfall of the game and I too wonder how far this can go.
Every year we have a "new" game the same as the previous year. They just upgrade its ugly graphics, introduce new unimportant(and often non-functional) features and it seems the teams working on the game have no cohesion with each other.
If we all start posting errors or omissions from something that came to our attention in-game then we should call the community FM-Buggers. Expand
And how SI is even supposed to listen to before i would've said "period" people now they feel like on full hemorrhoids.
You are right, but to me the problem is that: Those so called "tester" or whoever SI is working to in order to test the game are not the right people to help the game to get development on the right direction.
It's no sense that we have like 36 stats (?) and how many of them are usefull? Ah, right we already know that...
They should work on the Attributes first, since this seem to be really no-sense over and over.
And jesus, implemenent a "regen-3D pack" or whatever we wanna call it.
More i test more i do find cosmetic TI/PI.
Did someone yet understand why did they implement "trap inside/Outside"/ Stop Crosses/Invite Crosses?
It feel like they used multiple code language packs over the years and now all the mess is coming out.
How do we apply Zippo to be the Chief Executor Tester. Maybe we can do that behind his back and we come out with a big "SURPRISE".
Or at least we can elaborate a "smart petition" with logical arguments ?_?
If SI thinks that Acc and Pace should be the most important attributes then ok, I can live with that.
If SI don't want to tell us that because they want we found out it by ourselves then it's also fine by me.
BUT FOR GOD SAKE... I just don't understand if they don't want to help us then can we at least expect that they won't try to confuse us by putting something like the highlighted attributes?
Football Manager needs a serious competitor in the exact same football management simulation genre, one that also has players names rights and attributes. That's the only thing that might force SI to actually try to improve the core game
It would be interesting to test this and try and figure out the importance of CA vs Pace/Acc. So, what I mean is, we could try to have a team of players with like 150CA and one with 130CA but with X times more Pace/Acc and see which one does better. We could also do this with a higher/smaller difference in CA, so that we know what is better to recruit, if a player with 120CA and 18 pace/acc or 1 with 150CA and 14 pace/acc for example
stefanopt said: It would be interesting to test this and try and figure out the importance of CA vs Pace/Acc. So, what I mean is, we could try to have a team of players with like 150CA and one with 130CA but with X times more Pace/Acc and see which one does better. We could also do this with a higher/smaller difference in CA, so that we know what is better to recruit, if a player with 120CA and 18 pace/acc or 1 with 150CA and 14 pace/acc for example Expand
Good idea, to test it with some improvements.
But i already have an idea, if the difference is just 10 or 20 points of CA, the team with PAC ACC +2 will win
Everytime you post a different test/analysis i feel so amazed how much effort/time you put into this game/community
Regarding the subject, in my opinion SI want to implement a specific type of Match Engine where they do value things like decisions and such over Pace in Mezzala, but they failed to code, hence why the result of this test but with highlighted attributes to Decisions.. But yea, testers should check that and not allow the game to be released with these type of cosmetic errors
Who would you buy? Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12 Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15?
White Europe said: Who would you buy? Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12 Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15? Expand
White Europe said: Who would you buy? Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12 Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15? Expand
Player 1. But if scenario was the same except for jumping reach, I would go with player 2. Because I think jumping reach is also very important for CD especially to have one really good CD for coners.
White Europe said: Yes me too, my logic tells me that good positioning can allow CD's to be slower. Expand
Actually, "Player 1" will be faster because Acceleration is only how fast a player can reach his top Pace and if a player has Pace = 1 then he could have Acceleration 20 but he still will be as slows as a turtle because Acceleration only helps reaching the top Pace faster but if his Pace is 1 then even 20 Acceleration won't help he still will be very slow.
White Europe said: Who would you buy? Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12 Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15? Expand
from my own recent experience based on what Zippo has been telling us I have been winning the premier league with a player like Fagan-Walcott who is 17 17 speed but less than 100CA. Go look at his stats on FM Inside! I won the league with him and Danso in my defence in my first season with Leeds. I believe player 2 unfortunately is the better option by a country mile.
We all like to apply football common sense to this like "positioning allows him to be slower" but it's clear from the constant brute force tests that the game is designed poorly to reflect football common sense and these speed attributes are game breaking
Zeyad said: from my own recent experience based on what Zippo has been telling us I have been winning the premier league with a player like Fagan-Walcott who is 17 17 speed but less than 100CA. Go look at his stats on FM Inside! I won the league with him and Danso in my defence in my first season with Leeds. I believe player 2 unfortunately is the better option by a country mile.
We all like to apply football common sense to this like "positioning allows him to be slower" but it's clear from the constant brute force tests that the game is designed poorly to reflect football common sense and these speed attributes are game breaking Expand
team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added)
Unfortunately it seems this is the right way to achieve great things in FM Expand
What team did u pick? I tried to run a "sim" with Bournmouth with players with 16-16 pace or above, but C.A lower than 110. Got around 60 points in vacation. Not too bad
White Europe said: team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added) Expand
won league, even i just sim 2nd part of the season, i will try similar in top league. below my volante (DM Competent only) natural winger...but fast he made 18 assists
Just did a little experiment with Marseille, I changed all attributes to 1 and boosted to 20 : Pace, Acceleration, agility, stamina, balance, strenght, anticipation, concentration, work rate, passing and finishing for all players except goalkeeper.
Every players in ligue 1 were frozen with moral boost, heal, inspire ... Here is the result : Won the CL as well.
Hi there,
I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
But let's test it.
For our test we take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
As you can see it uses 2 x Mezzalas and 1 x Defensive Midfielder:
Now, let's check which attributes the game highlights for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles
Mezzala
Defensive Midfielder
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
Now, the attributes of our midfielders look like this:
Ok, let's test the tactic with the adjusted attributes of the MCs and DM and see how it'll affect the result.
Ouchh... what an unpleasant surprise. The points dropped from 51 to 36 points and the G.D. from "+3" to "-16".
But how that's possible? We just followed to what the game was telling us, it clearly said that "Pace" attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles(it wasn't highlighted) but in reality reducing Pace attribute greatly worsen the result.
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
>>> Alos, look at the "Part 2" of the test <<<
Zippo said: We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
Please tell me ...
I must say FM is the weirdest digital game I've ever played.
Almost, every tooltip and description in the game are so vague and misleading, honestly, I really can't recall I've seen something like this in any other digital game.
The only thing is that the game, year after year, is going downhill. If you pay attention to the official SI community, many of them are talking about the downfall of the game and I too wonder how far this can go.
Every year we have a "new" game the same as the previous year. They just upgrade its ugly graphics, introduce new unimportant(and often non-functional) features and it seems the teams working on the game have no cohesion with each other.
If we all start posting errors or omissions from something that came to our attention in-game then we should call the community FM-Buggers.
dzek said: The only thing is that the game, year after year, is going downhill. If you pay attention to the official SI community, many of them are talking about the downfall of the game and I too wonder how far this can go.
Every year we have a "new" game the same as the previous year. They just upgrade its ugly graphics, introduce new unimportant(and often non-functional) features and it seems the teams working on the game have no cohesion with each other.
If we all start posting errors or omissions from something that came to our attention in-game then we should call the community FM-Buggers.
Ok, i did a mistake again and went to read : https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/569294-official-football-manager-2023-feedback-thread/page/89/
And how SI is even supposed to listen to before i would've said "period" people now they feel like on full hemorrhoids.
You are right, but to me the problem is that: Those so called "tester" or whoever SI is working to in order to test the game are not the right people to help the game to get development on the right direction.
It's no sense that we have like 36 stats (?) and how many of them are usefull? Ah, right we already know that...
They should work on the Attributes first, since this seem to be really no-sense over and over.
And jesus, implemenent a "regen-3D pack" or whatever we wanna call it.
More i test more i do find cosmetic TI/PI.
Did someone yet understand why did they implement "trap inside/Outside"/ Stop Crosses/Invite Crosses?
It feel like they used multiple code language packs over the years and now all the mess is coming out.
How do we apply Zippo to be the Chief Executor Tester. Maybe we can do that behind his back and we come out with a big "SURPRISE".
Or at least we can elaborate a "smart petition" with logical arguments ?_?
But i don't think they even read those.
If SI thinks that Acc and Pace should be the most important attributes then ok, I can live with that.
If SI don't want to tell us that because they want we found out it by ourselves then it's also fine by me.
BUT FOR GOD SAKE... I just don't understand if they don't want to help us then can we at least expect that they won't try to confuse us by putting something like the highlighted attributes?
UNBELIEVABLY poor game design
Football Manager needs a serious competitor in the exact same football management simulation genre, one that also has players names rights and attributes. That's the only thing that might force SI to actually try to improve the core game
I stopped paying attention to the role attributes long time ago because it was obvious for me that they don't have nothing common with reality.
I wish at some day they seriously redo this area.
*A newcomer tries to learn FM*
It would be interesting to test this and try and figure out the importance of CA vs Pace/Acc. So, what I mean is, we could try to have a team of players with like 150CA and one with 130CA but with X times more Pace/Acc and see which one does better. We could also do this with a higher/smaller difference in CA, so that we know what is better to recruit, if a player with 120CA and 18 pace/acc or 1 with 150CA and 14 pace/acc for example
stefanopt said: It would be interesting to test this and try and figure out the importance of CA vs Pace/Acc. So, what I mean is, we could try to have a team of players with like 150CA and one with 130CA but with X times more Pace/Acc and see which one does better. We could also do this with a higher/smaller difference in CA, so that we know what is better to recruit, if a player with 120CA and 18 pace/acc or 1 with 150CA and 14 pace/acc for example
Good idea, to test it with some improvements.
But i already have an idea, if the difference is just 10 or 20 points of CA, the team with PAC ACC +2 will win
Falbravv said: Good idea, to test it with some improvements.
But i already have an idea, if the difference is just 10 or 20 points of CA, the team with PAC ACC +2 will win
The idea is to pinpoint the exact number where 1 is better than the other
stefanopt said: The idea is to pinpoint the exact number where 1 is better than the other
Totally agree
This is really an eye-opener, thanks.
@Zippo did i said that i love already today??
Everytime you post a different test/analysis i feel so amazed how much effort/time you put into this game/community
Regarding the subject, in my opinion SI want to implement a specific type of Match Engine where they do value things like decisions and such over Pace in Mezzala, but they failed to code, hence why the result of this test but with highlighted attributes to Decisions..
But yea, testers should check that and not allow the game to be released with these type of cosmetic errors
Now, it's clear for me why all the best strikers in the game such as Haaland, MbappĂ©, Neymar, Lautaro MartĂnez have Acceleration and Pace 17-20 ...
Who would you buy?
Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12
Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15?
White Europe said: Who would you buy?
Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12
Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15?
I would go for "Player 1"
Geek said: I would go for "Player 1"
Yes me too, my logic tells me that good positioning can allow CD's to be slower.
White Europe said: Who would you buy?
Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12
Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15?
Player 1. But if scenario was the same except for jumping reach, I would go with player 2. Because I think jumping reach is also very important for CD especially to have one really good CD for coners.
White Europe said: Yes me too, my logic tells me that good positioning can allow CD's to be slower.
Actually, "Player 1" will be faster because Acceleration is only how fast a player can reach his top Pace and if a player has Pace = 1 then he could have Acceleration 20 but he still will be as slows as a turtle because Acceleration only helps reaching the top Pace faster but if his Pace is 1 then even 20 Acceleration won't help he still will be very slow.
White Europe said: Who would you buy?
Player 1, all highlighted attributes for CD position 15, pace and acceleration 12
Player 2, all highlighted attributes for CD position 12, pace and acceleration 15?
from my own recent experience based on what Zippo has been telling us I have been winning the premier league with a player like Fagan-Walcott who is 17 17 speed but less than 100CA.
Go look at his stats on FM Inside! I won the league with him and Danso in my defence in my first season with Leeds.
I believe player 2 unfortunately is the better option by a country mile.
We all like to apply football common sense to this like "positioning allows him to be slower" but it's clear from the constant brute force tests that the game is designed poorly to reflect football common sense and these speed attributes are game breaking
Zeyad said: from my own recent experience based on what Zippo has been telling us I have been winning the premier league with a player like Fagan-Walcott who is 17 17 speed but less than 100CA.
Go look at his stats on FM Inside! I won the league with him and Danso in my defence in my first season with Leeds.
I believe player 2 unfortunately is the better option by a country mile.
We all like to apply football common sense to this like "positioning allows him to be slower" but it's clear from the constant brute force tests that the game is designed poorly to reflect football common sense and these speed attributes are game breaking
team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added)
White Europe said: team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added)
That's interesting...
White Europe said: team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added)
Yup
Unfortunately it seems this is the right way to achieve great things in FM
FM is now basically Fifa, Pace is king and a fast terrible player is probably going to perform better than an actual good player who is slow,
Zeyad said: Yup
Unfortunately it seems this is the right way to achieve great things in FM
What team did u pick? I tried to run a "sim" with Bournmouth with players with 16-16 pace or above, but C.A lower than 110. Got around 60 points in vacation. Not too bad
White Europe said: team selection done based pace and acc(if 2 players equal then 3rd atribute added)
won league, even i just sim 2nd part of the season, i will try similar in top league. below my volante (DM Competent only) natural winger...but fast he made 18 assists
Just did a little experiment with Marseille, I changed all attributes to 1 and boosted to 20 :
Pace, Acceleration, agility, stamina, balance, strenght, anticipation, concentration, work rate, passing and finishing
for all players except goalkeeper.
Every players in ligue 1 were frozen with moral boost, heal, inspire ...
Here is the result :
Won the CL as well.
This experiment doesn't mean much but it was fun.