Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is.
sponsorkindest said: Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is. Expand
The only thing it will happen here if devs take that as a feedback, they will destroy Pace, Acceleration and Jumping Reach too so nothing it will be work after
sponsorkindest said: Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is. Expand
I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility.
Purity said: I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility. Expand
I did a quick test, first 2 games were with strikers 20 finishing, defenders 20 jumping reach everyone else were set to 1 on all attributes except 20 pace and 20 acc. Did not go well. third and fourth game I added 20 anticipation, 20 concentration and 20 work rate, removing 20 finishing and 20 jumping. fifth I added 20 stamina and 20 strenght sixth, 20 agility and 20 balance.
Then last 3 games I put all attributes to 10 except 20 on anticipation, concentration work rate, acceleration and pace. As you can see with mid attributes and peak on these 5 you can beat city away. Recommended CA for this configuration was about 123
Just beat Rennes 5-0 with all attributes set on 10 and pace and acc on 20.
Purity said: I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility. Expand
I hope I am wrong too because if it worked there is no point in the recruitment process / analysis. In a single season sim (38 matches), the RNG can be as high as 30-40 points as highlighted by other posts in this forum, so the result on a few games is not sufficient to extrapolate and make an inference. Thats why if @Zippo had a opportunity, I was requesting for a sim (4000 matches).
I dont understand how many tests you guys need to acknowledge that those attributes are really important.. @Zippo already created this thread to highlight that and you also have the attributes table test
I did a quick test, first 2 games were with strikers 20 finishing, defenders 20 jumping reach everyone else were set to 1 on all attributes except 20 pace and 20 acc. Did not go well. third and fourth game I added 20 anticipation, 20 concentration and 20 work rate, removing 20 finishing and 20 jumping. fifth I added 20 stamina and 20 strenght sixth, 20 agility and 20 balance.
Then last 3 games I put all attributes to 10 except 20 on anticipation, concentration work rate, acceleration and pace. As you can see with mid attributes and peak on these 5 you can beat city away. Recommended CA for this configuration was about 123
Just beat Rennes 5-0 with all attributes set on 10 and pace and acc on 20. Expand
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena.
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena. Expand
Yea, i know.. but fm-arena test (Zippo, tbf) is made by reducing x points for all non-tested attributes.
What this guy did was something even more extreme and it still works.. So, not only the other attributes are less relevant but in fact they are non relevant at all.
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena. Expand
@Lapidus : Like @Gracolas pointed out the testing in the Reddit article was extreme, similar to my request. I am new to the game (dec 2022) and fm-arena is hands down the best on content and tactics quality. Was able to learn a lot reviewing all the previous post.
I think it's fairly obvious how much pace matters compared to other attributes. But some people who love FM will never acknowledge it unless it's tested in every possible scenario imaginable, even then I'm not sure.
I think what is hard to grasp for some (me also initially) is how important it is regardless of what tactic you use, and role you set on players.
I think it's fairly obvious how much pace matters compared to other attributes. But some people who love FM will never acknowledge it unless it's tested in every possible scenario imaginable, even then I'm not sure.
I think what is hard to grasp for some (me also initially) is how important it is regardless of what tactic you use, and role you set on players. Expand
The denial from mods is lolz. I took the WBA job in 2032 and they were the worst team in the EPL. Finished 4th with a few signings as not much cash, all had very high pace. Next year won it and the final of the UCL by upgrading the other positions. Normally my sides would be 87-93 rated via fmscout. This one is 83 lol but very fast
So, a training schedule should aim to increase Quickness, Pace and a mental attributes, like Anticipation. Based on Evidence Based FM videos, the training schedule should only contain sessions like Physical for Quickness and Pace, and Defending and Ball Distribution to increase anticipation and other mental attributes.
Dre said: So, a training schedule should aim to increase Quickness, Pace and a mental attributes, like Anticipation. Based on Evidence Based FM videos, the training schedule should only contain sessions like Physical for Quickness and Pace, and Defending and Ball Distribution to increase anticipation and other mental attributes. Expand
I disagree, the weightings and cost of pace is very high and increases in attributes takes a very long time added on to the fact that sub optimal training sessions are being used, my personal approach is instead of getting say a already technically gifted player who lacks pace and try to increase his pace, do the opposite try and bring in high pace guys who I can develop their technical side to their game as that is much easier to increase over a shorter period of time adding more benefit straight away to your side
as a lifelong novice in FM, I'm amazed by such dedication to testing things out and understanding how the game works.
Reading your post, I'm failing to understand something : - you are testing if an attribute not underlined as important for a role actually has an impact, by making it a relative weakness, restricting the ability of the player to "get there". However, you are testing that in a much more granular context than just the role in itself: the tactic ie. If feel like not everything is taken in account.
My question : doesn't the importance of pace actually come from the tactic you set up and the opponents you've faced?
I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
(...)
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
@Mark@ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased?
saycarramrod said: @Mark@ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased? Expand
Increase it to 100 will give more weight, and reducing or removing less important attributes will increase the other weights even further.
Maths are simple. Let's say you have 5 attributes with wights, like below. Acceleration 100 Pace 100 Dribbling 80 Anticipation 60 Finishing 60
That's a total of 400 points, so Pace will be 25% of the score of a player. Then, let's say you remove Anticipation, Dribbling and Finishing (reduce them to zero weight). Now, Pace will be 50% of the score of a player, becoming even more important for the score.
It's not exactly that simple, but the logic is the same.
saycarramrod said: @Mark@ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased? Expand
If you are doing the same for each position it means that players will be rated very similar for each position making it hard to pick. If you alter them slightly you might need to adjust the overall position applied for each position (balancing)
Is there any test with other tactics? So what if we lower the (passing) tempo to very slow (possession play of style) XOR lower pressing, disable counterattack. Will be pace or physics still be that "strong(er)"?
Too many broken or useless features, put on top of it the new transfer and UI updates then BAM, new FM!. I would never play FM if it wasn't for the random nature of the regen system (which needs improvement too tbh). If only fifa can create a totally random regen world then SI can go f**k themself.
Just to add on top of what has been discussed: I have been long time frustruated at SI's inability to differentiate the importance of attributes and roles for non-league and top league games.
For example, it is very obvious that in real life in lower leagues you will not find a Ball Playing Defender, Roaming Playmaker, Libero etc. as they do no have the mentals or technicals to pull such roles and, generally, direct game is the way to go. Nonetheless, in FM world that doesn't matter at all because you can imitate any fancy tactic with fancy roles in non-league and dominate as long as you have players with pace/acceleration.
The proper way to do is to change the importance of attributes based not only on the role, but also on the league level that you play at:
- Pace/Accelaration, Target Man/No-nonsense Defenders etc, Direct pass game should be the king in lower leagues. - Decisions/Technique, Ball Playing Defenders/Roaming Playmakers etc, Short pass game should be the king in top leagues.
However, I do not expect SI to be so intelligent and actually try to replicate what's happening in the real life in their game.
P.S. Maybe my examples of attributes and roles are debatable, but I think you get a point in that the importance of attributes should not be the same for the very best and worst in football.
TommyToxic said: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/575222-pace-is-king-how-to-get-cl-football-with-all-players-100-115-ca/
This might start a war 😆
TommyToxic said: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/575222-pace-is-king-how-to-get-cl-football-with-all-players-100-115-ca/
Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is.
sponsorkindest said: Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is.
@Zippo Agree, we need it
Zeyad said: This might start a war 😆
The only thing it will happen here if devs take that as a feedback, they will destroy Pace, Acceleration and Jumping Reach too so nothing it will be work after
TommyToxic said: https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/575222-pace-is-king-how-to-get-cl-football-with-all-players-100-115-ca/
hahahahaaaaaaa GENIUS
sponsorkindest said: Damn, the time I have wasted analyzing and buying players. @Zippo : if it’s possible, please run a sim with just acceleration and pace at 20 for everyone and jumping reach at 20 only for defenders and every other attribute at 1. That will highlight how broken football manager is.
I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility.
Purity said: I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility.
I did a quick test, first 2 games were with strikers 20 finishing, defenders 20 jumping reach everyone else were set to 1 on all attributes except 20 pace and 20 acc. Did not go well.
third and fourth game I added 20 anticipation, 20 concentration and 20 work rate, removing 20 finishing and 20 jumping.
fifth I added 20 stamina and 20 strenght
sixth, 20 agility and 20 balance.
Then last 3 games I put all attributes to 10 except 20 on anticipation, concentration work rate, acceleration and pace. As you can see with mid attributes and peak on these 5 you can beat city away.
Recommended CA for this configuration was about 123
Just beat Rennes 5-0 with all attributes set on 10 and pace and acc on 20.
For fun, 1 season with nottingham forest with 20 pace and 20 acceleration for all players
Purity said: For fun, 1 season with nottingham forest with 20 pace and 20 acceleration for all players
You left other attributes as they are? Not surprised by the results.
Purity said: I don't think this is going to work, I would bet on 0 win, for me pace and acc aren't doing everything, you still need anticipation, concentration, work rate, balance and agility.
I hope I am wrong too because if it worked there is no point in the recruitment process / analysis. In a single season sim (38 matches), the RNG can be as high as 30-40 points as highlighted by other posts in this forum, so the result on a few games is not sufficient to extrapolate and make an inference. Thats why if @Zippo had a opportunity, I was requesting for a sim (4000 matches).
I dont understand how many tests you guys need to acknowledge that those attributes are really important.. @Zippo already created this thread to highlight that and you also have the attributes table test
I agree, there's been countless amount of tests already.
Here's one more - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/
Purity said:
I did a quick test, first 2 games were with strikers 20 finishing, defenders 20 jumping reach everyone else were set to 1 on all attributes except 20 pace and 20 acc. Did not go well.
third and fourth game I added 20 anticipation, 20 concentration and 20 work rate, removing 20 finishing and 20 jumping.
fifth I added 20 stamina and 20 strenght
sixth, 20 agility and 20 balance.
Then last 3 games I put all attributes to 10 except 20 on anticipation, concentration work rate, acceleration and pace. As you can see with mid attributes and peak on these 5 you can beat city away.
Recommended CA for this configuration was about 123
Just beat Rennes 5-0 with all attributes set on 10 and pace and acc on 20.
Winning the EPL with 1 CA Squad link here
Mark said: Winning the EPL with 1 CA Squad link here
wow.. speachless
Mark said: Winning the EPL with 1 CA Squad link here
@Mark : I don’t know how you find these articles but it was super helpful. Thanks!
sponsorkindest said: I don’t know how you find these articles but it was super helpful. Thanks!
Gracolas said: wow.. speachless
To ad some context.
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena.
Lapidus said: To ad some context.
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena.
Yea, i know.. but fm-arena test (Zippo, tbf) is made by reducing x points for all non-tested attributes.
What this guy did was something even more extreme and it still works.. So, not only the other attributes are less relevant but in fact they are non relevant at all.
Lapidus said: To ad some context.
The guy who did that ( he mentioned that ) was inspired by fm-arena attribute testing that was done for the first time back in 2021 - https://fm-arena.com/table/9-attribute-testing/ so actually there's nothing new in what we've been discussing here because it was already brought to light few years ago by fm-arena.
@Lapidus : Like @Gracolas pointed out the testing in the Reddit article was extreme, similar to my request. I am new to the game (dec 2022) and fm-arena is hands down the best on content and tactics quality. Was able to learn a lot reviewing all the previous post.
Zeyad said: This might start a war 😆
Updated it now based on some requests.
I think it's fairly obvious how much pace matters compared to other attributes. But some people who love FM will never acknowledge it unless it's tested in every possible scenario imaginable, even then I'm not sure.
I think what is hard to grasp for some (me also initially) is how important it is regardless of what tactic you use, and role you set on players.
TommyToxic said: Updated it now based on some requests.
I think it's fairly obvious how much pace matters compared to other attributes. But some people who love FM will never acknowledge it unless it's tested in every possible scenario imaginable, even then I'm not sure.
I think what is hard to grasp for some (me also initially) is how important it is regardless of what tactic you use, and role you set on players.
The denial from mods is lolz. I took the WBA job in 2032 and they were the worst team in the EPL. Finished 4th with a few signings as not much cash, all had very high pace. Next year won it and the final of the UCL by upgrading the other positions. Normally my sides would be 87-93 rated via fmscout. This one is 83 lol but very fast
they should be upset indeed, the game sometimes seems like a fraud
they must work better and harder
So, a training schedule should aim to increase Quickness, Pace and a mental attributes, like Anticipation. Based on Evidence Based FM videos, the training schedule should only contain sessions like Physical for Quickness and Pace, and Defending and Ball Distribution to increase anticipation and other mental attributes.
Dre said: So, a training schedule should aim to increase Quickness, Pace and a mental attributes, like Anticipation. Based on Evidence Based FM videos, the training schedule should only contain sessions like Physical for Quickness and Pace, and Defending and Ball Distribution to increase anticipation and other mental attributes.
I disagree, the weightings and cost of pace is very high and increases in attributes takes a very long time added on to the fact that sub optimal training sessions are being used, my personal approach is instead of getting say a already technically gifted player who lacks pace and try to increase his pace, do the opposite try and bring in high pace guys who I can develop their technical side to their game as that is much easier to increase over a shorter period of time adding more benefit straight away to your side
Hey there,
as a lifelong novice in FM, I'm amazed by such dedication to testing things out and understanding how the game works.
Reading your post, I'm failing to understand something :
- you are testing if an attribute not underlined as important for a role actually has an impact, by making it a relative weakness, restricting the ability of the player to "get there". However, you are testing that in a much more granular context than just the role in itself: the tactic ie. If feel like not everything is taken in account.
My question :
doesn't the importance of pace actually come from the tactic you set up and the opponents you've faced?
Cheers
Zippo said: Hi there,
I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
But let's test it.
For our test we take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
(...)
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
(...)
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
>>> Alos, look at the "Part 2" of the test <<<
@Mark @ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased?
saycarramrod said: @Mark @ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased?
Increase it to 100 will give more weight, and reducing or removing less important attributes will increase the other weights even further.
Maths are simple. Let's say you have 5 attributes with wights, like below.
Acceleration 100
Pace 100
Dribbling 80
Anticipation 60
Finishing 60
That's a total of 400 points, so Pace will be 25% of the score of a player. Then, let's say you remove Anticipation, Dribbling and Finishing (reduce them to zero weight). Now, Pace will be 50% of the score of a player, becoming even more important for the score.
It's not exactly that simple, but the logic is the same.
saycarramrod said: @Mark @ZaZ I know you guys have a lot of experience using Genie Scout and modifying the ratings files on it - a quick question: if hypothetically I wanted to modify the ykykyk balanced or ZaZ ratings file to more heavily rate Pace and Acceleration (or any of the other ~7 or so attributes with most impact) is it as simple as just changing them to 100 in the ratings file in each individual position or is there some greater math behind them that other attribute ratings would need to be lowered for them to be increased?
If you are doing the same for each position it means that players will be rated very similar for each position making it hard to pick. If you alter them slightly you might need to adjust the overall position applied for each position (balancing)
Is there any test with other tactics?
So what if we lower the (passing) tempo to very slow (possession play of style) XOR lower pressing, disable counterattack. Will be pace or physics still be that "strong(er)"?
Too many broken or useless features, put on top of it the new transfer and UI updates then BAM, new FM!. I would never play FM if it wasn't for the random nature of the regen system (which needs improvement too tbh). If only fifa can create a totally random regen world then SI can go f**k themself.
Just to add on top of what has been discussed: I have been long time frustruated at SI's inability to differentiate the importance of attributes and roles for non-league and top league games.
For example, it is very obvious that in real life in lower leagues you will not find a Ball Playing Defender, Roaming Playmaker, Libero etc. as they do no have the mentals or technicals to pull such roles and, generally, direct game is the way to go. Nonetheless, in FM world that doesn't matter at all because you can imitate any fancy tactic with fancy roles in non-league and dominate as long as you have players with pace/acceleration.
The proper way to do is to change the importance of attributes based not only on the role, but also on the league level that you play at:
- Pace/Accelaration, Target Man/No-nonsense Defenders etc, Direct pass game should be the king in lower leagues.
- Decisions/Technique, Ball Playing Defenders/Roaming Playmakers etc, Short pass game should be the king in top leagues.
However, I do not expect SI to be so intelligent and actually try to replicate what's happening in the real life in their game.
P.S. Maybe my examples of attributes and roles are debatable, but I think you get a point in that the importance of attributes should not be the same for the very best and worst in football.