Some questions about 3-strikers tactic testing

by chalengr, Mar 15, 2023

I found in fm-arena‘s testbase striker’s CA is much higher than AMC(acceleration and pace are higher too),I want to know if the difference is from this@Zippo
(my English is not good)

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Where can I read about the test base? I couldn't find any details about it on the web site

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BulldozerJokic said: Where can I read about the test base? I couldn't find any details about it on the web site

https://fm-arena.com/thread/2712-fm23-fm-arena-tactic-testing-league/
there is a game save in this post

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chalengr said: https://fm-arena.com/thread/2712-fm23-fm-arena-tactic-testing-league/
there is a game in this post


Well, looks like it's not only the strickers that are faster, but also the wingers. Meaning that any narrow-shaped and some 3 atb tactics might be underscoring points like crazy

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If you are right, these two formations from Hall of Fame suffer the most: https://fm-arena.com/thread/4576-4222n-sambo-or-jiu-jitsu-v/ and https://fm-arena.com/thread/4417-redux-352-v5-2/

UPD. This tactic here https://fm-arena.com/thread/4649-3421-advanced-pm-4life/ is the one most suffering from lack of speed among all tactics tested for current patch

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chalengr said: I found in fm-arena‘s testbase striker’s CA is much higher than AMC(acceleration and pace are higher too),I want to know if the difference is from this@Zippo
(my English is not good)


The Match Engine don't use CA to calculate the result of matches so CA is irrelevant in that terms.

The Match Engine uses the actual attributes to calculate the result of matches.

For example,

The striker above has 140CA

140CA Player


But if we add to him additional playing positions such as AMCL/AMCR/AMC/ML/MR/MC then his CA will increase from 140CA to 164CA

164CA Player


As you can see the player still has the same attributes but his CA has significantly increased from 140CA to 164CA but in matches his efficiency hasn't changed because his attributes haven't changed. In other words, even his CA has increased from 140CA to 164CA but he won't play better in matches because his attributes haven't changed.

So only by looking at the CA you can't say that one player is better than other, also, the attributes have a different CA cost for different positions. For example, in general the attributes cost much less CA for central defenders than for any other positions so you can't compare players only by looking at their CA. In other words, in the actual game in general Central Defenders tend to have lower CA comparing to Striker but it doesn't make them less efficient in matches than Strikers. it's just that for a Central Defender the attributes are "cheaper" in terms of CA than for any other position.


BulldozerJokic said: Well, looks like it's not only the strickers that are faster, but also the wingers. Meaning that any narrow-shaped and some 3 atb tactics might be underscoring points like crazy

Our tactic testing leagues is designed to represent the actual game and not some "fantasy" custom football world.

Here're some facts from the actual game:

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.

and so on...

I hope this helps.

Cheers.

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@Zippo, did you change anything on FM-Arena Testing League since you gave us that savegame? If yes, can we have a newly savegame file? It will be very helpful :)

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dzek said: @Zippo, did you change anything on FM-Arena Testing League since you gave us that savegame? If yes, can we have a newly savegame file? It will be very helpful :)

No, there haven't been any changes.

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Zippo said: Here're some facts from the actual game:

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.

and so on...

I hope this helps.

Cheers.



I agree with you that this is how it normally is, but many people can develop and find fast attaching midfields for example. Then, tactics involving attaching midfields may actually perform better than these 3 striker formations.

What are the pace and accelation for attaching midfields in these tests? If these are below 15 I think the test is somewhat unrealistic. In most fm-saves you could easily buy/find/use players with  15 pace and accelaration. If you are in any top 5 league you can find it straight away, and in most second tier leagues you will easily be capable of that in a season or two.

Could someone upload pics of the attributes? :)

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Zippo said: The Match Engine don't use CA to calculate the result of matches so CA is irrelevant in that terms.

The Match Engine uses the actual attributes to calculate the result of matches.

For example,

The striker above has 140CA

140CA Player


But if we give him additional playing positions such as AMCL/AMCR/AMC/ML/MR/MC then his CA will increase from 140CA to 164CA

164CA Player


As you can see the player still has the same attributes but his CA has significantly increased from 140CA to 164CA but in matches his efficiency hasn't changed because his attributes haven't changed. In other word, he won't play better having 164CA instead of 140CA when the actual attributes haven't changed.

So only by looking at the CA you can't say that one player is better than other, also, the attributes have a different CA cost for different positions. For example, in general the attributes cost much less CA for central defenders than for any other positions so you can't compare players only by looking at their CA. In other words, in the actual game in general Central Defenders tend to have lower CA comparing to Striker but it doesn't make them less efficient in matches than Strikers. it's just that for a Central Defender the attributes are "cheaper" in terms of CA than for any other position.




Our tactic testing leagues is designed to represent the actual game and not some "fantasy" custom football world.

Here're some facts from the actual game:

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.

and so on...

I hope this helps.

Cheers.


Well explained as always, brings a lot of clarity to the topic.

Do you think the CBs in the test save are suitable to play in a 3ATB system? I know CBs in general have low dribbling, but I think when FM players play 3ATB they prioritize attributes differently on wide CBs than in a traditional 4ATB tactic.

Wide center backs go more forward and also have to cover space out wide so having slightly higher dribbling and pace is normal, and maybe a bit less strength/jumping reach to compensate. Something like Ben White or Tomiyasu.

Is it sensible to include a second type of CB (wide CB) in the test save teams, or does that make testing more difficult without necessarily making it better for testing?

Same goes for AMs as they are very well rounded players in the test save, but in normal FM games they are usually much more attacking players similar to inside forwards or false nines.

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kjordafen said: I agree with you that this is how it normally is, but many people can develop and find fast attaching midfields for example. Then, tactics involving attaching midfields may actually perform better than these 3 striker formations.

What are the pace and accelation for attaching midfields in these tests? If these are below 15 I think the test is somewhat unrealistic. In most fm-saves you could easily buy/find/use players with  15 pace and accelaration. If you are in any top 5 league you can find it straight away, and in most second tier leagues you will easily be capable of that in a season or two.

Could someone upload pics of the attributes? :)

This is what a Striker/winger, and DM/CM/AM look like in the save. There are two striker only players in the save teams also but they have the same attributes as the wingers.

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@TommyToxic Your tactic scored 55 points and +7 goal difference with just one player being 15/15 for pace/acceleration, I think it means something :D

@Zippo Fair point! The problem for me is that I play youth-only saves for the most part, and fast regens are so very hard to come by, I have to consider soo many factors to over-perform.

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TommyToxic said: This is what a Striker/winger, and DM/CM/AM look like in the save. There are two striker only players in the save teams also but they have the same attributes as the wingers.

I will also add defender/wing back:

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BulldozerJokic said: @TommyToxic Your tactic scored 55 points and +7 goal difference with just one player being 15/15 for pace/acceleration, I think it means something :D

Thanks, it workes well for me when I test it on holiday, but I don't think tactics with multiple AMs are gonna skyrocket if their attributes change. It might have a slight positive impact. The DM/CM/AM is still a solid player even if it's more well rounded than AMs people use in normal saves.

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TommyToxic said: Thanks, it workes well for me when I test it on holiday, but I don't think tactics with multiple AMs are gonna skyrocket if their attributes change. It might have a slight positive impact. The DM/CM/AM is still a solid player even if it's more well rounded than AMs people use in normal saves.

This tactic from FM21 comes to my mind https://fm-arena.com/thread/865-void-ver-2-0/

Six players in the middle with 13/13 pace/acc. No wonder we don't see such formations performing well in the current test league.

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kjordafen said: What are the pace and accelation for attaching midfields in these tests? If these are below 15 I think the test is somewhat unrealistic.

In the actual game an average natural Central Midfielder has 13 Acceleration and 13 Pace.

In the actual game an average natural Winger/Striker has 15 Acceleration and 15 Pace.

And that balance we have in our testing league.

Also, here are some interesting facts there're only 2 natural Central Midfielders who have Acceleration and Pace higher than "17" in the actual game.

But there're about 100 Wingers who have Acceleration and Pace higher than "17" in the actual game.


kjordafen said: I agree with you that this is how it normally is, but many people can develop and find fast attaching midfields for example.

Training a new playing position from zero level might take from 3 to 6 seasons and that in case if a player's Versality attribute is high enough to learn a new position at all. So we just can't consider training a new position from zero level as a viable option, also taking into consideration that there're are many people who prefer playing only 1-3 seasons keeping mostly the default team or who change teams after 2-3 seasons.


kjordafen said: In most fm-saves you could easily buy/find/use players with  15 pace and accelaration. If you are in any top 5 league you can find it straight away, and in most second tier leagues you will easily be

Of course, in the actual game you can find/buy/use a natural Central Midfielder with 15 Acceleration and 15 Pace but the same time there're Wingers/Strikers who have 20 Acceleration and 20 Pace in the actual game. So for the actual game 15 Acceleration and 15 Pace aren't extreme values but in our tactic testing league 15 Acceleration and 15 Pace are the highest value for Acceleration and Pace attributes which means when a player having 13 Acceleration and 13 Pace in our tactic testing league then his speed is almost at the top level so the midfielders in our tactic testing league are very well balanced and that balance represent very well what we have in the actual game.

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TommyToxic said: Well explained as always, brings a lot of clarity to the topic.

Do you think the CBs in the test save are suitable to play in a 3ATB system? I know CBs in general have low dribbling, but I think when FM players play 3ATB they prioritize attributes differently on wide CBs than in a traditional 4ATB tactic.

Wide center backs go more forward and also have to cover space out wide so having slightly higher dribbling and pace is normal, and maybe a bit less strength/jumping reach to compensate. Something like Ben White or Tomiyasu.

Is it sensible to include a second type of CB (wide CB) in the test save teams, or does that make testing more difficult without necessarily making it better for testing?

Same goes for AMs as they are very well rounded players in the test save, but in normal FM games they are usually much more attacking players similar to inside forwards or false nines.

Once more, the players in our testing league are very well balanced and the testing environment represents the actual game very well.

Most importantly, the testing environment in our tactic testing is much more "fair" for different tactical approaches than if we tested with real teams from the actual game, testing tactics with real teams would be the easiest way to test but also it would be much more less "fair".

Also, another advantage of our tactic testing league is that it's free of occasionally terrible choices that the Assistant Manager can make when he picks the team to test different tactics so it ensures that some tactics won't be tested with more inferior players than other tactics.

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Zippo said: In the actual game an average natural Central Midfielder has 13 Acceleration and 13 Pace.

In the actual game an average natural Winger/Striker has 15 Acceleration and 15 Pace.

And that balance we have in our testing league.


When we upload a strikerless tactic with DWs, IWBs and variations of 3x SS, 3x AM and everything in between (SS,AM,SS etc.) to be tested, which players are selected for the "front 3" roles? The faster (15) or the slower (13) suitable players?

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Rrred said: When we upload a strikerless tactic with DWs, IWBs and variations of 3x SS, 3x AM and everything in between (SS,AM,SS etc.) to be tested, which players are selected for the "front 3" roles? The faster (15) or the slower (13) suitable players?

Wide players (15), striker (15), AM (13)

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Rrred said: When we upload a strikerless tactic with DWs, IWBs and variations of 3x SS, 3x AM and everything in between (SS,AM,SS etc.) to be tested, which players are selected for the "front 3" roles? The faster (15) or the slower (13) suitable players?

If the "front 3" are AMs, there will be slower (13) players playing there. I don't understand why @Zippo doesn't see a problem here.

It can be solved by adding AM natural position to the strikers. But that will require re-testing everything :blink:

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Rrred said: When we upload a strikerless tactic with DWs, IWBs and variations of 3x SS, 3x AM and everything in between (SS,AM,SS etc.) to be tested, which players are selected for the "front 3" roles? The faster (15) or the slower (13) suitable players?
Here're end game saves - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TouuZEnFGiwT7KhJbaJT90YA_5h1Zijr/view?usp=sharing of your strikerless tactic test - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4648-cowboyball2-strikerless/ you can get any information you like from it.


BulldozerJokic said: If the "front 3" are AMs, there will be slower (13) players playing there. I don't understand why @Zippo doesn't see a problem here.
In the actual game natural Wingers are faster than natural Attacking Midfielders and our tactic testing league keeps that balance.

When you play the actual game and you use a strikerless tactic then you put your strikers/wingers to play at the AMs and your strikers/wingers won't have "Natural" rating for the AM position but if you follow the link below then you can check how the playing position rating affects the result - https://fm-arena.com/table/19-playing-position-testing/


BulldozerJokic said: It can be solved by adding AM natural position to the strikers. But that will require re-testing everything :blink:
We always want to be sure in the reliability of our testing league and of course, we've already done what you suggested.

We added the strikers "natural" playing position rating and re-tested some highest scoring strikerless tactics.

For example, we re-tested this strikers tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4644-diva-meet-extreme-strikerless-iii-4330/

And the difference was -/+ 1-2 points, which means the highest score was 58 pts and the lowest score 54 pts.

If you ask me then -/+ 1-2 points doesn't change anything for strikerless tactics.

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Zippo said: We added the strikers "natural" playing position rating and re-tested some highest scoring strikerless tactics.

For example, we re-tested this strikers tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4644-diva-meet-extreme-strikerless-iii-4330/

And the difference was -/+ 1-2 points, which mean the highest score was 58 pts and the lowest score 54 pts.

That’s wonderful to know, thank you! For sure will help me decide what tactic to pick based on the qualities of my "amazing" danish "wonderkids" 😁

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Zippo said: The Match Engine don't use CA to calculate the result of matches so CA is irrelevant in that terms.

The Match Engine uses the actual attributes to calculate the result of matches.

For example,

The striker above has 140CA

140CA Player


But if we give him additional playing positions such as AMCL/AMCR/AMC/ML/MR/MC then his CA will increase from 140CA to 164CA

164CA Player


As you can see the player still has the same attributes but his CA has significantly increased from 140CA to 164CA but in matches his efficiency hasn't changed because his attributes haven't changed. In other word, he won't play better having 164CA instead of 140CA when the actual attributes haven't changed.

So only by looking at the CA you can't say that one player is better than other, also, the attributes have a different CA cost for different positions. For example, in general the attributes cost much less CA for central defenders than for any other positions so you can't compare players only by looking at their CA. In other words, in the actual game in general Central Defenders tend to have lower CA comparing to Striker but it doesn't make them less efficient in matches than Strikers. it's just that for a Central Defender the attributes are "cheaper" in terms of CA than for any other position.




Our tactic testing leagues is designed to represent the actual game and not some "fantasy" custom football world.

Here're some facts from the actual game:

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.

- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.

and so on...

I hope this helps.

Cheers.


Damn, this post is eye opening, didnt know that additional playing positions will increase CA. thanks as always!

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