I dislike tactics that have CBs scoring as many goals as strikers. The feeling is that these set pieces skew and misrepresent the tactic testing. (Please correct me if I am assuming something wrong here, e.g if setpieces are not considered in the tactic testing)
Is there a possibility in FM24 that tactics are tested with default setpieces?
Xeno94 said: I dislike tactics that have CBs scoring as many goals as strikers. The feeling is that these set pieces skew and misrepresent the tactic testing. (Please correct me if I am assuming something wrong here, e.g if setpieces are not considered in the tactic testing)
Is there a possibility in FM24 that tactics are tested with default setpieces? Expand
I agree that isolating set pieces could improve the quality of tactics as a whole.
If I get the new system for the set pieces system right then it seems that in FM23 the set pieces won't be a part of tactics anymore, they will be more like the training so I guess all tactics will be with the same set pieces.
ZaZ said: I agree that isolating set pieces could improve the quality of tactics as a whole. Expand
I also agree. I believe that set pieces play too large of a role in how well the tactic does in the testing. If the set pieces are not optimized it could lead to 2-4 fewer points. It would probably take some work to implement because the set pieces are saved in the tactic file. Perhaps that is changing in FM24 with the UI changes.
Lapidus said: If I get the new system for the set pieces system right then it seems that in FM23 the set pieces won't be a part of tactics anymore, they will be more like the training so I guess all tactics will be with the same set pieces. Expand
Based on my interpretation of the set piece changes for FM24, it is still the same system underneath the new UI. The new UI makes it a lot easier to create set pieces with presets but you still have the same level of control as FM23 underneath it all. Therefore, it could still be optimized in the same way as past FMs.
However, I could be wrong, and set pieces could be in the training menu this year instead of being directly associated with the saved tactic.
Blau said: Based on my interpretation of the set piece changes for FM24, it is still the same system underneath the new UI. The new UI makes it a lot easier to create set pieces with presets but you still have the same level of control as FM23 underneath it all. Therefore, it could still be optimized in the same way as past FMs. Expand
Yup, it could be optimized but in FM24 the set piece won't be attached to tactics, it'll be like the training so it'll be possible to use the same set pieces when testing different tactics which was very hard to do in the previous FM versions.
Lapidus said: Yup, it could be optimized but in FM24 the set piece won't be attached to tactics, it'll be like the training so it'll be possible to use the same set pieces when testing different tactics which was very hard to do in the previous FM versions. Expand
That will be cool, because it will allow two different tables in FM-Arena: one for tactics, and one for set pieces. Let's see how it looks when the game is released.
I don’t see how the changes in FM24 affect anything. To test a tactic you have to have set pieces, and set pieces are always dependent at least on formation and the propensity of the tactic to lead to set pieces. It’s not like the rankings are skewed because one group is submitting tactics with deliberately bad set pieces to not take advantage of known exploits, so I don’t think the ranking of tactics would change at all. If you don’t want to score a lot from corners you can just pick a top tactic and change the set piece routine, or just not sign CBs with 18 jumping reach and 16 headers. It’s just as much a problem of attributes as it is of the set pieces themselves.
But literally set pieces were making like 3-5 points average on FM23 if you believe that's too much or the contrary is literally up to you. If you like more "in-real" (still make me smile whenever i do read it) you can simply modify the corner set routine and you are done. But you will notice pretty fast how bad is on FM23 without that "corner set routine".
I really do hope they did implemented more the gameplay and making setpieces more secondary.
Delicious said: But you will notice pretty fast how bad is on FM23 without that "corner set routine". Expand
I don't mind a couple extra goals here and there, but CBs scoring 20 a season ruins the entire game (even if I don't care 100% about "immersion" and "reality" of the game.
Do you really think FM23 is that bad without the set piece exploit?
The whole point of extensive tactic testing is to find the best tactic possible. People here are trying to "break" the engine and the game, and set pieces are part of that. None of the top tactics play realistically, because that is not their point, they are supposed to win, utilising every tool possible. Besides, after a while it becomes obvious what type of set pieces are the best and almost every top tactic uses them, so they aren't skewing anything.
If you are looking for something realistic than I would advise you to look for tactical recreations or build something yourself and not go for the top tactics, because realism and winning, for most part, don't go hand in hand.
TommyToxic said: Is the difference between optimized set pieces and default really that little, with CBs scoring 20+ goals? Expand
Yep, but what we don't understand is, sometimes you literally scam a game with a corner goal, for me 20+ goals is insane and those set routines were just to hide the fact you can't really come up with a good gameplay w/e you do.
Players on this community want to win, no matter what, sometimes even with teams that are supposed to struggle to even to don't fight for relegation.
5 points average on a test league ain't really that "little", it's a quite gap, but still you don't really need the set routine, if you made your team building good enough to carry you out.
I think the whole point is that set pieces are plug and play, and can most of the times be applied to any conventional tactics. There might be some very good tactics scoring low points because they use weak set pieces, while some tactics can overachieve because of some corner routine. Having tactics and set pieces being tested separated (adding standard set pieces to all tactics in the tactic table) would increase the accuracy of the tests, in my opinion.
However, some tactics might be created to "play for set pieces", but I don't remember any tactic like that ever succeeding in the table.
Egraam said: The whole point of extensive tactic testing is to find the best tactic possible. People here are trying to "break" the engine and the game, and set pieces are part of that. None of the top tactics play realistically, because that is not their point, they are supposed to win, utilising every tool possible. Besides, after a while it becomes obvious what type of set pieces are the best and almost every top tactic uses them, so they aren't skewing anything.
If you are looking for something realistic than I would advise you to look for tactical recreations or build something yourself and not go for the top tactics, because realism and winning, for most part, don't go hand in hand. Expand
Personally, I don't mind nearly as much if a tactics "exploits" the match engine, rather than set pieces "exploiting" the match engine.
Everyone has a different preferred experience. I think as the game as grown, the ability to exploit the ME has reduced greatly.
ZaZ said: I think the whole point is that set pieces are plug and play, and can most of the times be applied to any conventional tactics. There might be some very good tactics scoring low points because they use weak set pieces, while some tactics can overachieve because of some corner routine. Having tactics and set pieces being tested separated (adding standard set pieces to all tactics in the tactic table) would increase the accuracy of the tests, in my opinion.
However, some tactics might be created to "play for set pieces", but I don't remember any tactic like that ever succeeding in the table. Expand
Couldn't agree more, i am curious how FM-Arena is gonna setup it, so at least we can setup something similar.
But as I said before you can’t test a tactic without set pieces, so what is going to be your default? Do you want to have a default that deliberately aims headers away from CBs? If you play with 3 CBs are you not allowed to have them all in the box because that’s “unfair”? Some people are just jumping to conclusions about rankings without even trying to present evidence that there’s a problem. (Like showing that some completely different tactic would move from a mediocre ranking to be ranked best if you just aimed corners at the other CB). Yes, in FM23 you could create a corner routine that scored a lot of goals … IF the player you aimed at had extreme jumping reach and headers, and if your corner taker was accurate. If you prioritized fast CBs and they weren’t good at jumping and heading you could have that routine and not even know there was anything unusual about it. The issue was just as much a problem of how the match engine dealt with those attributes as it was the positioning. So should tactics also not exploit pace and acceleration because that is a much bigger advantage than any corner routine?
MeanOnSunday said: But as I said before you can’t test a tactic without set pieces, so what is going to be your default? Do you want to have a default that deliberately aims headers away from CBs? If you play with 3 CBs are you not allowed to have them all in the box because that’s “unfair”? Some people are just jumping to conclusions about rankings without even trying to present evidence that there’s a problem. (Like showing that some completely different tactic would move from a mediocre ranking to be ranked best if you just aimed corners at the other CB). Yes, in FM23 you could create a corner routine that scored a lot of goals … IF the player you aimed at had extreme jumping reach and headers, and if your corner taker was accurate. If you prioritized fast CBs and they weren’t good at jumping and heading you could have that routine and not even know there was anything unusual about it. The issue was just as much a problem of how the match engine dealt with those attributes as it was the positioning. So should tactics also not exploit pace and acceleration because that is a much bigger advantage than any corner routine? Expand
People whining for many reason, but since here we are testing tactics "power" or whatever we do wanna call it, that's might be a good way, point is not every clear is how actually tactics are being tested at the very moment, which can create confusion, we don't know what AM is gonna do about set routine. I guess FMArena's stuff is setuping all those settings as well. About set routine, you can apply your routine however you want, doesn't feel like change that much : i am getting numbers between with city
30-41 goals corners(Haaland cheatcode) ; With Luton 16-22(Adebayo) ; With Villa 13-20 (their main focus got like 14 Jumping reach).
I dislike tactics that have CBs scoring as many goals as strikers. The feeling is that these set pieces skew and misrepresent the tactic testing. (Please correct me if I am assuming something wrong here, e.g if setpieces are not considered in the tactic testing)
Is there a possibility in FM24 that tactics are tested with default setpieces?
Xeno94 said: I dislike tactics that have CBs scoring as many goals as strikers. The feeling is that these set pieces skew and misrepresent the tactic testing. (Please correct me if I am assuming something wrong here, e.g if setpieces are not considered in the tactic testing)
Is there a possibility in FM24 that tactics are tested with default setpieces?
I agree that isolating set pieces could improve the quality of tactics as a whole.
ZaZ said: I agree that isolating set pieces could improve the quality of tactics as a whole.
Very pleased to hear that from you of all people! Hopefully it's something that can be implemented for FM24.
If I get the new system for the set pieces system right then it seems that in FM23 the set pieces won't be a part of tactics anymore, they will be more like the training so I guess all tactics will be with the same set pieces.
ZaZ said: I agree that isolating set pieces could improve the quality of tactics as a whole.
I also agree. I believe that set pieces play too large of a role in how well the tactic does in the testing. If the set pieces are not optimized it could lead to 2-4 fewer points. It would probably take some work to implement because the set pieces are saved in the tactic file. Perhaps that is changing in FM24 with the UI changes.
Lapidus said: If I get the new system for the set pieces system right then it seems that in FM23 the set pieces won't be a part of tactics anymore, they will be more like the training so I guess all tactics will be with the same set pieces.
Based on my interpretation of the set piece changes for FM24, it is still the same system underneath the new UI. The new UI makes it a lot easier to create set pieces with presets but you still have the same level of control as FM23 underneath it all. Therefore, it could still be optimized in the same way as past FMs.
However, I could be wrong, and set pieces could be in the training menu this year instead of being directly associated with the saved tactic.
Blau said: Based on my interpretation of the set piece changes for FM24, it is still the same system underneath the new UI. The new UI makes it a lot easier to create set pieces with presets but you still have the same level of control as FM23 underneath it all. Therefore, it could still be optimized in the same way as past FMs.
Yup, it could be optimized but in FM24 the set piece won't be attached to tactics, it'll be like the training so it'll be possible to use the same set pieces when testing different tactics which was very hard to do in the previous FM versions.
Lapidus said: Yup, it could be optimized but in FM24 the set piece won't be attached to tactics, it'll be like the training so it'll be possible to use the same set pieces when testing different tactics which was very hard to do in the previous FM versions.
That will be cool, because it will allow two different tables in FM-Arena: one for tactics, and one for set pieces. Let's see how it looks when the game is released.
I don’t see how the changes in FM24 affect anything. To test a tactic you have to have set pieces, and set pieces are always dependent at least on formation and the propensity of the tactic to lead to set pieces. It’s not like the rankings are skewed because one group is submitting tactics with deliberately bad set pieces to not take advantage of known exploits, so I don’t think the ranking of tactics would change at all. If you don’t want to score a lot from corners you can just pick a top tactic and change the set piece routine, or just not sign CBs with 18 jumping reach and 16 headers. It’s just as much a problem of attributes as it is of the set pieces themselves.
First i would say to see how it works in-game.
But literally set pieces were making like 3-5 points average on FM23 if you believe that's too much or the contrary is literally up to you. If you like more "in-real" (still make me smile whenever i do read it) you can simply modify the corner set routine and you are done. But you will notice pretty fast how bad is on FM23 without that "corner set routine".
I really do hope they did implemented more the gameplay and making setpieces more secondary.
Delicious said: But you will notice pretty fast how bad is on FM23 without that "corner set routine".
I don't mind a couple extra goals here and there, but CBs scoring 20 a season ruins the entire game (even if I don't care 100% about "immersion" and "reality" of the game.
Do you really think FM23 is that bad without the set piece exploit?
Delicious said: But literally set pieces were making like 3-5 points average on FM23
Is the difference between optimized set pieces and default really that little, with CBs scoring 20+ goals?
The whole point of extensive tactic testing is to find the best tactic possible. People here are trying to "break" the engine and the game, and set pieces are part of that. None of the top tactics play realistically, because that is not their point, they are supposed to win, utilising every tool possible. Besides, after a while it becomes obvious what type of set pieces are the best and almost every top tactic uses them, so they aren't skewing anything.
If you are looking for something realistic than I would advise you to look for tactical recreations or build something yourself and not go for the top tactics, because realism and winning, for most part, don't go hand in hand.
TommyToxic said: Is the difference between optimized set pieces and default really that little, with CBs scoring 20+ goals?
Yep, but what we don't understand is, sometimes you literally scam a game with a corner goal, for me 20+ goals is insane and those set routines were just to hide the fact you can't really come up with a good gameplay w/e you do.
Players on this community want to win, no matter what, sometimes even with teams that are supposed to struggle to even to don't fight for relegation.
5 points average on a test league ain't really that "little", it's a quite gap, but still you don't really need the set routine, if you made your team building good enough to carry you out.
I think the whole point is that set pieces are plug and play, and can most of the times be applied to any conventional tactics. There might be some very good tactics scoring low points because they use weak set pieces, while some tactics can overachieve because of some corner routine. Having tactics and set pieces being tested separated (adding standard set pieces to all tactics in the tactic table) would increase the accuracy of the tests, in my opinion.
However, some tactics might be created to "play for set pieces", but I don't remember any tactic like that ever succeeding in the table.
Egraam said: The whole point of extensive tactic testing is to find the best tactic possible. People here are trying to "break" the engine and the game, and set pieces are part of that. None of the top tactics play realistically, because that is not their point, they are supposed to win, utilising every tool possible. Besides, after a while it becomes obvious what type of set pieces are the best and almost every top tactic uses them, so they aren't skewing anything.
If you are looking for something realistic than I would advise you to look for tactical recreations or build something yourself and not go for the top tactics, because realism and winning, for most part, don't go hand in hand.
Personally, I don't mind nearly as much if a tactics "exploits" the match engine, rather than set pieces "exploiting" the match engine.
Everyone has a different preferred experience. I think as the game as grown, the ability to exploit the ME has reduced greatly.
ZaZ said: I think the whole point is that set pieces are plug and play, and can most of the times be applied to any conventional tactics. There might be some very good tactics scoring low points because they use weak set pieces, while some tactics can overachieve because of some corner routine. Having tactics and set pieces being tested separated (adding standard set pieces to all tactics in the tactic table) would increase the accuracy of the tests, in my opinion.
However, some tactics might be created to "play for set pieces", but I don't remember any tactic like that ever succeeding in the table.
Couldn't agree more, i am curious how FM-Arena is gonna setup it, so at least we can setup something similar.
But as I said before you can’t test a tactic without set pieces, so what is going to be your default? Do you want to have a default that deliberately aims headers away from CBs? If you play with 3 CBs are you not allowed to have them all in the box because that’s “unfair”? Some people are just jumping to conclusions about rankings without even trying to present evidence that there’s a problem. (Like showing that some completely different tactic would move from a mediocre ranking to be ranked best if you just aimed corners at the other CB). Yes, in FM23 you could create a corner routine that scored a lot of goals … IF the player you aimed at had extreme jumping reach and headers, and if your corner taker was accurate. If you prioritized fast CBs and they weren’t good at jumping and heading you could have that routine and not even know there was anything unusual about it. The issue was just as much a problem of how the match engine dealt with those attributes as it was the positioning. So should tactics also not exploit pace and acceleration because that is a much bigger advantage than any corner routine?
MeanOnSunday said: But as I said before you can’t test a tactic without set pieces, so what is going to be your default? Do you want to have a default that deliberately aims headers away from CBs? If you play with 3 CBs are you not allowed to have them all in the box because that’s “unfair”? Some people are just jumping to conclusions about rankings without even trying to present evidence that there’s a problem. (Like showing that some completely different tactic would move from a mediocre ranking to be ranked best if you just aimed corners at the other CB). Yes, in FM23 you could create a corner routine that scored a lot of goals … IF the player you aimed at had extreme jumping reach and headers, and if your corner taker was accurate. If you prioritized fast CBs and they weren’t good at jumping and heading you could have that routine and not even know there was anything unusual about it. The issue was just as much a problem of how the match engine dealt with those attributes as it was the positioning. So should tactics also not exploit pace and acceleration because that is a much bigger advantage than any corner routine?
People whining for many reason, but since here we are testing tactics "power" or whatever we do wanna call it, that's might be a good way, point is not every clear is how actually tactics are being tested at the very moment, which can create confusion, we don't know what AM is gonna do about set routine.
I guess FMArena's stuff is setuping all those settings as well. About set routine, you can apply your routine however you want, doesn't feel like change that much : i am getting numbers between with city
30-41 goals corners(Haaland cheatcode) ; With Luton 16-22(Adebayo) ; With Villa 13-20 (their main focus got like 14 Jumping reach).
Set pieces are determined by the assistant manager https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/25968/