Recall that 87% for ST is 2.571 and 73% for ST is 6.111, and that positions other than ST appear to be consistently ~1 position lower.
Every position for the Knap 424 formation has been sampled now, and I'm satisfied that the same set of required attributes apply to all outfield positions in the same way.
I've done some readjustments to the weightings.
I've dropped Sterling the equivalent of ~1 position, but this means he should we should expect no worse than ~4 position, yet his average is 5.375 if we give +1 for not being ST. This is the best I've been able to do.
Non-ST positions seem more comparable to ST now (less unexplained position difference), and stamina is now a more reasonable 40 instead of 94 weight - stamina seemed to be the partial cause of Sterling's overrating. Quite a few players have pleasant coincidental changes, such as Maeda going higher and Gyokeres lower, which is more line with the real rankings.
However some changes had to go with it, such as Vlahovic dropping a little below Messi. I figure it's more likely that Sterling should drop 1 position, than Vlahovic should not drop 0.5 position. And given most players seem more to be more accurate now, I'm not too concerned about Vlahovic.
Next step is translating to Genie Scout weights, then I can upload the updated file. Main reason for updated file will be adding the new GK weights of course. Expand
GeorgeFloydOverdosed said: You are saying either one of two things: That my method is unreliable because the opposition teams are in flux, or otherwise that deducing weightings more precisely is pointless because in reality the opposition teams are always in flux.
Look, my view is that I don't need teams to be frozen, because I actually think having teams in flux replicates the realism better. I don't need to be able to work out precisely how good a particular player is. If I can just improve the reasonable certainty from +/- 15% to +/- 8%, then that's what worth doing in my opinion. Of course, data from controlled testing is often useful, but it's not the be all or end all.
Because it is more enjoyable than playing the game itself. The difficulty makes it an enjoyable challenge, and it's one of the few things I know of that hasn't been done to death by a million people.
You say 'we know what is important', but it has become apparent that the assertion pace/acc is everything isn't quite true anymore. I'm still discovering new things that surprise me. And judging by quite a few of the recent replies in this thread, many don't have a clue what's important in the game and what's not.
Now you could say 'well, we've worked out the game well enough to win everything with ease', and that would have been true already back in 2019 - before EBFM, HarvestGreen, FM Arena, etc. - because we had Knap tactics. If other people want to persist with the game vanilla or whatnot, good for them - the problem I have with it is when people tell me what to do with my time based on that attitude. Expand
I actually appreciate your tests fr, look forward to your files as this as a good baseline to apply to the upcoming game imo
90% | Erling Haaland - 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 1st = 1.666 position 85% | Kylian Mbappe - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 1st, 1st = 2.5 position 83% | Daizen Maeda - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd = 3 position 84% | Kyogo Furuhashi - 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd = 3 position 84% | Harry Kane - 5th, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 7th = 3.5 position 84% | Robert Lewandowski - 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 8th, 5th, 3rd = 3.555 position 82% | Dusan Vlahovic - 1st, 4th, 4th, 5th, 1st, 6th, 4th = 3.571 position 89% | Lautaro Martinez - 7th, 3rd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 5th = 3.75 position 81% | Victor Osimhen - 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th = 3.833 position 79% | Lionel Messi - 4th, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 9th, 3rd = 4 position 86% | Viktor Gyokeres - 6th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 2nd, 5th = 4.25 position 77% | Donyell Malen - 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 5th, 5th, 7th = 4.666 position 74% | Robert Glatzel - 5th, 7th, 6th, 3rd, 12th, 6th = 6.5 position 73% | Paulo Dybala - 5th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 3rd, 12th = 6.833 position 64% | Adam Le Fondre - 8th, 11th (sacked), 5th, 7th (sacked), 6th (sacked), 8th (sacked) = 7.5 position
DR
85% | Giovanni Di Lorenzo - 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 9th, 2nd, 5th, 5th = 4.143 position 71% | Kingsley Schindler - 4th, 11th, 6th, 11th = 8 position
The percentage is what I get based on the current weightings I have, adjusted where the top player in the position is 90%. Currently it needs to be updated to account for Gyokeres and Martinez.
The same set of weights for ST are used for DR.
I'm no statistician, but ChatGPT says that the reasonable margin of error for a player's percentage so far is about +/- 7.8%. This is inclusive of the natural seasonal variance as well as the inaccuracy of the weightings. It means that you can be pretty certain that best player is going to be at least 82%, or for a practical example, if you were selecting the top natural ST for England, it would narrow it down to 14 players (Kane 84.27% > Danny Ings 76.90%). Expand
Looking good so far, can’t wait for the new weightings.
GeorgeFloydOverdosed said: Using the weights in the above post, I've done testing of my Genie Scout weights vs. Orion's weights.
I think it's the first time a results-based comparison of the Genie Scout rating files has been attempted.
Method:
- Luton in Premier League - Remove all players - Filter in Genie Scout for CA-PA gap of 0-3 and current reputation 0-6000 and green proficiency in relevant position - Take top 3-4 in each position - Move them to Luton - Change age, personality, natural fitness, consistency, important matches, nationality, height, weight, etc. so that there is control where there needs to be - Position proficiency is deliberately *not* controlled (this has pros and cons) - One season with Knap tactic and Blue routines (Premier League, FA Cup & Carabao Cup @ full detail)
Extra info:
Player overlap - 13 of 27 players Peak acc/pace/jump/drib (Orion) - 18/18/19/15 Peak acc/pace/jump/drib (My weights) - 18/18/19/13 Median acc/pace/jump/drib (Orion) - 14/14/13/12 Median acc/pace/jump/drib (My weights) - 14/14/14/11
The results:
My weights - 10th, 9th, 4th, 9th, 9th, 9th = 8.333th average Orion's weights - 18th, 12th, 16th, 10th, 10th, 13th = 13.166th average
Now I would caution against reading into these results too much at the moment, but I think it's safe to say at least that Orion's weights do not do significantly better than mine. To my mind, it's further suggestive evidence that all positions share the same necessary attributes; there are not position-specific attributes.
The main reason for caution is that it could simply be that my weights ended up having a higher jumping reach player on the field. The Orion team did start their 19 jump DC most games though, and if my weights are selecting more frequently for high jumping reach players who win then that's a feature not a bug. When I do this test with my Premier League 1.0 weights and one or two others, that will shed more light on this more conclusively. Expand
Can you do this against your max performance rating as I found that to be the best, I just removed injury proneness as I don’t require imo
I did 10 season test on fc Metz and that one out preformed the newest file set but might be some rng possibly please test.
I'll call it Premier League 1.0, since that's what it's designed to thrive in and I'll probably have a Championship/lower league one later.
Hiddens are not included, as weighting them seems to just mess things up badly. Use filter: 8 min for consistency, important matches, pressure, professionalism, natural fitness. Dirtiness 14<, Injury Proneness 13<.
Vision, Strength, Finishing are required, but not included because your players will most likely have 7-8+ in these attributes anyway and weighting them would just do more harm than good (i.e. 18 fin/12 pace player gets higher rating than 6 fin/14 pace player).
GK is included. SW is a basic tutor rating.
DC and Target Man have jumping reach valued at 17, but you should really put a filter for this, as 15 can be worthless compared to 17.
I've done a glance comparison with FM26 scoring system vs. these weightings in Genie Scout, it seems to work as intended.. but Genie Scout does have issues with how it calculates things, so if you want to be sure I recommend you use FM26 scoring system to double check the player before signing. Expand
What weights would you give for the hiddens if I were to use on genie or fmrte
dancamp said: i don't have genie scout cause i play on a mac but i'm using fmdatalabs for similar attribute rating with exports -- safe to say anything not listed here gets a 0 weight? also, do you have gk weights somewhere and i missed it? Expand
I use fmrte, works perfectly for this on mac, but doesn’t have a drop down list for ranking them in the next pos each but it still works
ccww said: I used Zaz's tactics, training program, and set-piece strategy. In my first season at Fenerbahçe, I won all the trophies. In big matches and tough away games, I only played defensively and with balance. I took control of the matches in the first 45 minutes and kept morale high with substitutions. It was a very enjoyable career, and at the beginning of my career, I made three transfers that suited my tactical system: Enzo Boyomo for 10 million plus 30 million in installments, Moussa Diaby on a free transfer, and Lewis Skelly on loan. It was truly a great tactic, thank you.@ZaZ Expand
this is crazy, u said you did this on big matches or away games
LightningFlik said: Sorry to pile on with demands @GeorgeFloydOverdosed, but can you provide these weights as raw data? That is, I don't think Genie Scout runs on Linux but I'd be interested in seeing what you've come up with.
@ZaZ how do I use the filters, you said one is to remove bad players and one is to find elite players, are we supposed to use them together, or increase certain attributes like only pace & accel for the min filter or all lmk
FMST26 weights (copy paste this into statistics > custom metrics (advanced)):
Outfield:
(acceleration * 90.5 + pace * 94 + jumping_reach * 43 + pressure * 17 + dribbling * 14.3 + work_rate * 66.5 + agility * 16.0 + anticipation * 40 + composure * 26 + stamina * 50 + consistency * 14.05 + determination * 43.5 + balance * 14.25 + strength * 5.0 + concentration * 45 + finishing * 2.0 + important_matches * 10.1 + natural_fitness * 6.45 + professionalism * 15.0 + ambition * 2.0 + loyalty * 1.0 + aggression * 10 + vision * 0.5 + left_foot * 6 + right_foot * 5 - (injury_proneness * (48 / (natural_fitness * 0.75))) - (dirtiness * 32 * (aggression * 0.1))) / 113.2
GK:
((aerial_reach * 28.68 + command_of_area * 15.69 + first_touch * 16.99 + passing * 10.46 + reflexes * 86 + concentration * 82.35 + determination * 88.89 + work_rate * 38.68 + acceleration * 15.03 + balance * 10.46 + agility * 32.68 + jumping_reach * 14.30 + natural_fitness * 10.46 + pace * 28.30 + stamina * 32.68 + strength * 10.46 + technique * 15.69 + pressure * 15.03 + professionalism * 9.80 + flair * 49.02 - injury_proneness * 49.02 + vision * 25 - dirtiness * 16.34 - ca * 9.80)) / 84.5
what values would you put for Injury Proneness, natural fitness, dirtiness and aggression as simple values on other platforms?
73% | Andrian Kraev (DM) = 9th, 8th, 5th, 5th = 6.75 position
Recall that 87% for ST is 2.571 and 73% for ST is 6.111, and that positions other than ST appear to be consistently ~1 position lower.
Every position for the Knap 424 formation has been sampled now, and I'm satisfied that the same set of required attributes apply to all outfield positions in the same way.
I've done some readjustments to the weightings.
I've dropped Sterling the equivalent of ~1 position, but this means he should we should expect no worse than ~4 position, yet his average is 5.375 if we give +1 for not being ST. This is the best I've been able to do.
Non-ST positions seem more comparable to ST now (less unexplained position difference), and stamina is now a more reasonable 40 instead of 94 weight - stamina seemed to be the partial cause of Sterling's overrating. Quite a few players have pleasant coincidental changes, such as Maeda going higher and Gyokeres lower, which is more line with the real rankings.
However some changes had to go with it, such as Vlahovic dropping a little below Messi. I figure it's more likely that Sterling should drop 1 position, than Vlahovic should not drop 0.5 position. And given most players seem more to be more accurate now, I'm not too concerned about Vlahovic.
Next step is translating to Genie Scout weights, then I can upload the updated file. Main reason for updated file will be adding the new GK weights of course.
Can’t wait to see the new weights
Use FMST26 (works for FM24 & FM26) and copy paste this into statistics > custom metrics (advanced):
(acceleration * 86.8 + pace * 86.2 + jumping_reach * 46.2 + pressure * 16.7 + dribbling * 14.6 + work_rate * 63.0 + agility * 17.0 + anticipation * 58.2 + composure * 25.6 + stamina * 93.9 + consistency * 14.1 + determination * 30.0 + balance * 13.5 + strength * 1.0 + concentration * 47.3 + finishing * 2.0 + important_matches * 10.2 + natural_fitness * 7.9 + professionalism * 15.0 + ambition * 2.0 + loyalty * 1.0 + aggression * 6.3 + vision * 0.5 + left_foot * 6 + right_foot * 5 - (injury_proneness * (50 / (natural_fitness * 0.85))) - (dirtiness * 32 * (aggression * 0.1))) / 118
the same weightings for each position?
Look, my view is that I don't need teams to be frozen, because I actually think having teams in flux replicates the realism better. I don't need to be able to work out precisely how good a particular player is. If I can just improve the reasonable certainty from +/- 15% to +/- 8%, then that's what worth doing in my opinion. Of course, data from controlled testing is often useful, but it's not the be all or end all.
Because it is more enjoyable than playing the game itself. The difficulty makes it an enjoyable challenge, and it's one of the few things I know of that hasn't been done to death by a million people.
You say 'we know what is important', but it has become apparent that the assertion pace/acc is everything isn't quite true anymore. I'm still discovering new things that surprise me. And judging by quite a few of the recent replies in this thread, many don't have a clue what's important in the game and what's not.
Now you could say 'well, we've worked out the game well enough to win everything with ease', and that would have been true already back in 2019 - before EBFM, HarvestGreen, FM Arena, etc. - because we had Knap tactics. If other people want to persist with the game vanilla or whatnot, good for them - the problem I have with it is when people tell me what to do with my time based on that attitude.
I actually appreciate your tests fr, look forward to your files as this as a good baseline to apply to the upcoming game imo
ST
90% | Erling Haaland - 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 2nd, 1st = 1.666 position
85% | Kylian Mbappe - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 1st, 1st = 2.5 position
83% | Daizen Maeda - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd = 3 position
84% | Kyogo Furuhashi - 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd = 3 position
84% | Harry Kane - 5th, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 7th = 3.5 position
84% | Robert Lewandowski - 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 2nd, 8th, 5th, 3rd = 3.555 position
82% | Dusan Vlahovic - 1st, 4th, 4th, 5th, 1st, 6th, 4th = 3.571 position
89% | Lautaro Martinez - 7th, 3rd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 5th = 3.75 position
81% | Victor Osimhen - 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th = 3.833 position
79% | Lionel Messi - 4th, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 9th, 3rd = 4 position
86% | Viktor Gyokeres - 6th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 2nd, 5th = 4.25 position
77% | Donyell Malen - 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 5th, 5th, 7th = 4.666 position
74% | Robert Glatzel - 5th, 7th, 6th, 3rd, 12th, 6th = 6.5 position
73% | Paulo Dybala - 5th, 5th, 6th, 10th, 3rd, 12th = 6.833 position
64% | Adam Le Fondre - 8th, 11th (sacked), 5th, 7th (sacked), 6th (sacked), 8th (sacked) = 7.5 position
DR
85% | Giovanni Di Lorenzo - 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 9th, 2nd, 5th, 5th = 4.143 position
71% | Kingsley Schindler - 4th, 11th, 6th, 11th = 8 position
The percentage is what I get based on the current weightings I have, adjusted where the top player in the position is 90%. Currently it needs to be updated to account for Gyokeres and Martinez.
The same set of weights for ST are used for DR.
I'm no statistician, but ChatGPT says that the reasonable margin of error for a player's percentage so far is about +/- 7.8%. This is inclusive of the natural seasonal variance as well as the inaccuracy of the weightings. It means that you can be pretty certain that best player is going to be at least 82%, or for a practical example, if you were selecting the top natural ST for England, it would narrow it down to 14 players (Kane 84.27% > Danny Ings 76.90%).
Looking good so far, can’t wait for the new weightings.
I think it's the first time a results-based comparison of the Genie Scout rating files has been attempted.
Method:
- Luton in Premier League
- Remove all players
- Filter in Genie Scout for CA-PA gap of 0-3 and current reputation 0-6000 and green proficiency in relevant position
- Take top 3-4 in each position
- Move them to Luton
- Change age, personality, natural fitness, consistency, important matches, nationality, height, weight, etc. so that there is control where there needs to be
- Position proficiency is deliberately *not* controlled (this has pros and cons)
- One season with Knap tactic and Blue routines (Premier League, FA Cup & Carabao Cup @ full detail)
Extra info:
Player overlap - 13 of 27 players
Peak acc/pace/jump/drib (Orion) - 18/18/19/15
Peak acc/pace/jump/drib (My weights) - 18/18/19/13
Median acc/pace/jump/drib (Orion) - 14/14/13/12
Median acc/pace/jump/drib (My weights) - 14/14/14/11
The results:
My weights - 10th, 9th, 4th, 9th, 9th, 9th = 8.333th average
Orion's weights - 18th, 12th, 16th, 10th, 10th, 13th = 13.166th average
Now I would caution against reading into these results too much at the moment, but I think it's safe to say at least that Orion's weights do not do significantly better than mine. To my mind, it's further suggestive evidence that all positions share the same necessary attributes; there are not position-specific attributes.
The main reason for caution is that it could simply be that my weights ended up having a higher jumping reach player on the field. The Orion team did start their 19 jump DC most games though, and if my weights are selecting more frequently for high jumping reach players who win then that's a feature not a bug. When I do this test with my Premier League 1.0 weights and one or two others, that will shed more light on this more conclusively.
Can you do this against your max performance rating as I found that to be the best, I just removed injury proneness as I don’t require imo
I did 10 season test on fc Metz and that one out preformed the newest file set but might be some rng possibly please test.
https://files.catbox.moe/zhf2yl.grf
I'll call it Premier League 1.0, since that's what it's designed to thrive in and I'll probably have a Championship/lower league one later.
Hiddens are not included, as weighting them seems to just mess things up badly. Use filter: 8 min for consistency, important matches, pressure, professionalism, natural fitness. Dirtiness 14<, Injury Proneness 13<.
Vision, Strength, Finishing are required, but not included because your players will most likely have 7-8+ in these attributes anyway and weighting them would just do more harm than good (i.e. 18 fin/12 pace player gets higher rating than 6 fin/14 pace player).
GK is included. SW is a basic tutor rating.
DC and Target Man have jumping reach valued at 17, but you should really put a filter for this, as 15 can be worthless compared to 17.
I've done a glance comparison with FM26 scoring system vs. these weightings in Genie Scout, it seems to work as intended.. but Genie Scout does have issues with how it calculates things, so if you want to be sure I recommend you use FM26 scoring system to double check the player before signing.
What weights would you give for the hiddens if I were to use on genie or fmrte
I use fmrte, works perfectly for this on mac, but doesn’t have a drop down list for ranking them in the next pos each but it still works
same I have this question, but i think it's been working for me, I check pre match expectations before i play and decide based off that.
but would like to hear your view on this @ZaZ
this is crazy, u said you did this on big matches or away games
"I only played defensively and with balance"
what fdo you mean by this?
Season 3 almost won everything with a low-tier club from Portugal
using blended or pure?
(No rush, whenever you have time).
Yes please, I want to use on personal tool pls
Filter for agility and reflexes mainly, maybe a tie breaker on aerial reach?