Another thing about the r5xm3t rating file. Anyone here using a strikeless tactic seen any difference in using the Attacking midfields ratings vs the fast strikers ratings for their top line?
I'm using the AMC/Wingers ratings even if there are no strikers up front. It's working well, but wondering if anyone tries to use other ratings?
I tried to put my best "target striker" as my AMC in my strikerless tactic and THAT went poorly.
I have to say though that your UI and the simplicity of your tool did make it a way superior tool than Genie Scout (for my use of it, not necessarily as a generic tool). Of course GS is more powerful, but it is way less instinctive to sort out a shortlist of players considering the "meta attributes" than HOW you decided to make it available in your UI.
Panneton0 said: First of all, your tool is amazing and I add my voice to those encouraging you to put a little "donate" button somewhere.
I have two questions that occured while trying it in a low-league save of mine 1) Following the formulaes I can find, I don't understand this (see screenshot). With 4 in an attribute, I'd think his "factor" would be (4-8)/12=-0.333. So I guess there's a supplemental penalty hidden but I don't know where
2) Why do you set "score < 0 --> score = 0" ? Is this a limitation for your squad builder? UI limitation? In one of my saves, in a low league, most players have a negative score (and I am doing a youth-only challenge, so no transfers in!). Trying to optimize my pityfull team so I'd guess I'd field my "less bad" lads I can see their negative scores individually, but not in the squad view. Is this by design?
Again, AMAZING tool, and slick visual! Love it Expand
Another thing: Your "change log" shows "built" as time.now, not the time of the actual build. Keep up the good work and I hope you're having great holidays (if you celebrate it!).
Optimal training + U18/U23 appearances vs Loaner club's training + First team appearances
Has anyone also crunched the numbers for progress between "optimized training" and "loaned players". When a player goes on loan (and let's say he is starter at the loaner club), you can't set his training for [Chosen training]+[Quickness]+[Double], but his progress is uncapped since he'll get many first team appearances.
My little-to-no-basis instinct would be that one should only loan a player if his attributes distribution is already optimal, but with high untapped PA. Any player with high PA and suboptimal attributes distribution should stay with our training to start skewing his attributes back the right way.
First of all, your tool is amazing and I add my voice to those encouraging you to put a little "donate" button somewhere.
I have two questions that occured while trying it in a low-league save of mine 1) Following the formulaes I can find, I don't understand this (see screenshot). With 4 in an attribute, I'd think his "factor" would be (4-8)/12=-0.333. So I guess there's a supplemental penalty hidden but I don't know where
2) Why do you set "score < 0 --> score = 0" ? Is this a limitation for your squad builder? UI limitation? In one of my saves, in a low league, most players have a negative score (and I am doing a youth-only challenge, so no transfers in!). Trying to optimize my pityfull team so I'd guess I'd field my "less bad" lads I can see their negative scores individually, but not in the squad view. Is this by design?
So I guess that the "precomputed" result (if this is the case, I know nothing is yet confirmed) is not only the result, but also pass maps / positions / etc. Because ingame highlights still "kinda" feel like they fit with the tactic (giving the potentially better illusion of micro-computations). Thanks for all your inputs, this is all very interesting
MeanOnSunday said: Doesn’t make sense to worry about it. Sign the best free agents and loans you can get at the start of each year. No young player is ever going to progress enough from training to get into your team, or to stay with the team as you get promoted. Expand
Usually would agree, but in a "Youth academy challenge", that is not an option. I am aware how the challenge makes it very very difficult, but let's say for "academic" interest, if we have any data on what (if any) part-time training can min/max CA gains toward meta attributes, and how it compares to the best full-time ones.
This is purely out of curiosity, to further some understanding of training mechanisms.
Out of curiosity, anyone tested part-time training? Only having 6 slots (2 of them likely being a game) changes things. Not clear to me if the "unavailable" slots count as rest. Anyone tested the progress cap with that? Wondering how to boost a semi-pro team :P
I might not have been clear. I am fully aware that attributes have their strenghts and that this is all a multi-variable problem. The question is whether the ME makes micro-computations "on the spot" with true complex interactions between attributes or if it is only a render of more macro-computations that only ponderates "success" with main attributes.
In other words, is it true that "high pace = best decisions" or is the huge success of pace more an indicator that ME does not make "decisions" and "vision" shine enough during the play-by-play computations.
You guys (or gals) have tested things WAY more than the average Joe. Your inputs on this might help MANY players better understand their favorite games. As I also saw many people getting disenchanted with the ME, while I feel all of your findings are not as damning as it seems.
I have recently started to wrap my head around all the info I could find from amazing testers.
First, the concept of "meta" tactics, for which Gerrard feels like the unequaled master. For FM24, most of the best tactics are a variation of some 424 Gegenpress. Others can perform, but those seem to have the best results. Every FM iteration has their "meta" startegies that give statistically better results.
Second, the concept of "meta" attibutes, for which we all agree that Pace/Acceleration dominate for some time now, with some tweaks in the weighting in different opuses. Many have tested this and the quality of data and analysis amazes me.
Where I find myself left with a sense of misunderstanding is the why. So there is my question:
Is the match engine: 1 Complex and as advertised, but with inherent (and unavoidable... this is a simulation) imbalances that make some tactics/attributes stand out more in the "results" department 2 An illusion of complexity, but actually very simplified, with barely any real-time micro-calculations that are attributes-specific
I personnally feel like all the data we have does NOT actually point toward option 2, unlike many comments and analysis I find in FM-Arena. However, I have never done rigorous testing, data mining, code testing, or anything. So I just want to share my hypothesis so I can better understand FM's match engine and, mostly, how much fun us tacticians can have with it
Hypothesis: The match engine is ACTUALLY complex and taking into accounts live micro-computations that use all attributes and tactic tweaks, even if attribute testing shows that many attributes have no impact on results.
How does that hypothesis still fits the concept of meta tactic and meta attributes: Let's say that you want to play positionnal play, based on many passes in tight spaces. If the match engine is made in such a way that no player can find a real good space, you will never achieve good positional play / tiki-taka style. Even a player with 20 Off-the-ball and 1 Pace, could find the best "pocket of space" ACCORDING to the ME, if the ME does not suggest the best spot, his "amazing skill" won't help at all.
On the other hand, if the player is the opposite (20 Pace, 1 Off the Ball), even if he doesn't find a good pocket of space, he'll be the first on the ball anyways. So as a "result", fast players would be better even in "positional play" possession tactics. Not because he finds better pockets, but because the ME can't find good pockets for any of both those players... so the fast one, at least, can still be useful.
Another example: If a player receives the ball and has 3 options. 1 good, 2 bad. Let's say the Engine looks at "decision" for a fast computation of the next play. If the ME is made so a 1-Decision player has 80% chances of taking the right decision while a 20-Decision player has a 95% chance, then, very clearly, the "Decision" attribute ha little-to-no value. Not because it is not used in the computation, but because it does not have a realistic impact ingame.
Many have hypothesised that a player with high Pace makes better decisions (leaning toward the idea that the match engine is actually over-simplified with a "general" rating for each actions). But just looking at the results does not necessarily points toward that. A fast player might provide better results because the ME is not good at providing intelligent options anyways, so the fast player will just be generally way off his marker when he makes his move.
Where my hypothesis falls short Vision, decision, off the ball, positionning are attributes that are very tough to understand. If the ME forces players to find some specific pockets of space depending on their roles/attributes and those pockets are not the "smartest ones" (because you know... football IS complicated), a player with high vision might still do weird stuff ingame. Just because the ME might think it's good.
But when I see someone with 3 Long shots pull a top-corner screamer in, then I feel a little bit weirded out. So this is why I'm still very much wondering how the ME actually works, and how micro-computations within a game are actually made.
How are attributes testing working with different tactics If attributes testing are done with a "meta tactic" (which is wide/fast/gegenpress-heavy), then maybe we are actually skewing our perception of attributes importance toward physical a lot. Let's say we look at a hyper-conservative possession-heavy tactic, how would attributes scale up? I would guess that whatever the attributes, those tactics will score lower. This has been thoroughly seen. But would Pace/Accel/Dribb still be that high up? Would Vision/Off-the-Ball show their head slightly above the water of "no impact"?
That might provide insight on how the ME actually works.
******************************
I conclude this by saying that I see many amazing analystst and data crunchers in these threads. My question really leads to this:
- As a FM tactician who would LOVE to create club DNAs and "chose" a style, adjusting games and using the complexity of our favorite sport, can the ME actually evolve the right way or is it too simplified and there is no hope in actually finding nuances in performance and style of individuals outside of meta attributes?
If my hypothesis is right, then the problem is simply that the ME is not yet providing players with "smarts", or giving enough weight of some attributes (IMO, 1 vision means the player looks at his feet 99% of the time, maybe the ME just says: let's drop his options by 5%), or just not attributing "success probability" to actions the right way, making a 20 decision player still making decisions that won't help the team. Meaning that possession tactics don't work because smart players don't lead to smart plays. But fast players lead to easy plays.
If my hypothesis is wrong, then yeah... the ME won't realistically evolve anytime soon and we'll have to keep playing pace monsters to reproduce possession-heavy tactics that can't really work anyways.
P.S. Training is not as advertised, that much seems certain. But my questionning here is solely on the ME. Training is it's own subject.
Please, add screenshots of the tactic and some results with it.
Thank you. Expand
My bad, this was a copy from other forums and pictures didn't follow :|
I just added some screenshots. One analysis of a typical game (possession, number of passes, zone of action) was added too considering this tactic is more about its STYLE than its RESULTS (which are still very good if you build a decent team around it).
Total Control 21.4.0 4-2-3-1 Highly entertaining - High Possession - High Success - Not Plug'n'Play
-- General comments --
This is my first uploaded tactic ever, and the reason is simple: For the first time, I've managed to make my players play the actual way I wanted them to play.
Like many others, I've been inspired by Barcelona's high possession approach of the golden days '10-'11. Match engines of diverse FM editions have been tough on tactic creators with a possession-oriented mind. After testing and tweaks, I can finally present a tactic that covers all my personal needs:
- Full blown control of the game: 70%+ possession - Maximum possession in front of the box, center field - High number of passes between central midfielders (DM / MC / AMC) - Actual attacking intent, with through balls and dribbles - Highly frustrating: Low-to-none xG from the opponent
-- Latest update -- (21.4.0 - See name of attached files)
21.2.0: In this new release, the inside forwards are instructed to get more runs behind the defenders when in the last third. This provides better clean chances to replace the frustrating blocked long shots.
DM was also recycled in a Half-Back to help the defenders. Possession remained unchanged, but defense got a little more solid. Both central defenders are now a little less important in the passing game and can concentrate on their defensive positioning.
AMC got "promoted" to Attacking Playmaker so his participation to the central passing game reflects his importance in the wanted system.
21.3.0: Wing backs dropped to DR/DL positions for better defending. Set piece routines modified for better overall results! Maybe other minor tweaks here and there
21.4.0: The "Gentlemen" version is upon us! (Stick with V21.3.0 if you have underdog team or if your team isn't yet Total Control-ready )
Stay on feet: I've always wanted my team to play clean football, with less cards. First and foremost, because I'm a softie and I don't want talented players to get hurt. On a tactical level, I want to avoid having to make substitutions based on suspensions or based on fear of suspesion. With this new approach, I had the chance to stop replacing both my DC in the middle of the game... and actually sub in my offensive players for more punch late game. Finally, the tactic is as "aggressive" as ever when out-of-possession, aiming at high-pressure and getting back the ball BETWEEN players instead of at their feet. You press, they have to make a quick decision. Since their tactic won't ever have the structure to help them make that decision (like Total Control does), most likely they'll try a pass that your players can intercept. Never need to go to the ground, you outsmart them. Clean team, still wins !
Set pieces: Some tweaks to strengthen the capacity of getting back possession if the set piece fails to find your dangerous players in time.
-- Obviously, this tactic is not perfect. None is. It is highly NOT plug-and-play. The main reason is that the "roles" of the players on the pitch are not exactly what the "description" of their roles is. I had to change the roles and instructions so that the players actually acted the way I wanted on the field, even if the text wasn't pointing toward it. You then truly need to check your players stats since a "good" defender according to the game for this position may not be your actual best choice!
-- Player Selection -- For player selection, as a rule of thumbs, you will ALWAYS need to have good stats (even for defenders!) for: - First touch - Decision - Vision - Off the ball - Positioning
This is an extremely high-tempo tactic, where the players will need to think and act fast. Without those stats, expect mistakes. And if you make mistakes, just like any possession tactics, you will pay dearly. The actual numbers needed depend on your league level. Aim for those stats to be at least above average. You can deal with lower speed, which is usually a stat that boost the price of players.
Remember, the Match Engine provides a complex fast-paced and intricate decision making process for your team as a whole. Sometimes, an attribute not listed here (may it be high or low) can make a player unsuited for the tactic because it sligthly affects his split-second decision toward something you don't want for the tactic to work. My thoughts about this? Don't buy 100M$ players... get a couple of lower-priced guys and try them out. Or better yet, train them yourself. Team cohesion > Individual stats anyways.
Specifically: SK-De: You want an agressive keeper with good communication. Since most of the opportunities from your opponents will come from breakouts and one-on-one, no need for him to actually be a good "shot stopper"! Good aerial reach may also help for corners and such, as usual.
Priority: Communication, Aerial Reach, One on Ones, Rushing out, Anticipation, Decision, First touch
CD-De: Your defenders are your last hope at killing the counter-attacks and also need to be able to recycle possession. They will be used in the passing game so they need not to panic and kick the ball far away. They also need to think fast since them losing possession is a 80% chance of getting scored against...
Priority: First Touch, Marking, Anticipation, Decision, Positioning, Pace, Jumping Reach (for set pieces)
IWB-Su: Not your typical lateral defender. They will be sitting near the center of the pitch and become passing options during attacking movements. They are amongst the prime creators because, unlike the APs, they are usually marked with less rigor. You need smart players but again, other managers in the game will value fast lateral defenders almost exclusively, so you should be able to get one that is smart and just somewhat fast... or train one!
Priority: First touch, Marking, Anticipation, Decision, Off the Ball, Positioning, Acceleration, Pace
BWM-Su: This guy does everything. He'll receive a lot of passes, especially when your opponent starts parking the bus. Forward passes will become trickier, so the team will look to go through him, with some one-twos, to unlock spaces. With his role, he'll also be on the lookout and jump on the adversary whenever possession is lost. Get yourself an all-star here and he'll solidify the tactic.
Priority: First touch, Marking, Agression, Anticipation, Concentration, Decision, Off the Ball, Positioning, Work rate, Acceleration, Strength, (Long Shots)*
* The long shot attribute shouldn't be a priority, but it's a good-to-have. The reason is that no one should actively try to shoot from afar, but when the opponent starts parking the bus, your players may have no choice at some point. And from what I've seen, the one with the best opportunities to do a long shot with an actual good line-of-sight to the goal is your BWM. Mine scores a screamer every other game and it helps when my opponent tries to frustrate me
AP-Su (In CM position): One of the toughest position to find someone suitable. This AP will be surrounded, always, by adversaries and teammates alike. He is the one who needs the best Vision and Decision making skills since he'll have sooooo many options and dangers around him. If he makes the right decision, you'll win. If he doesn't, your team will be pressured into mistakes more often, and this tactic is not forgiving
Priority: First touch, Composure, Concentration, Decision, Vision
AP-Su (In AMC position): This guy will move around the other AP to give him some passes opportunities. So a little more movement is needed from him (everyone covers a lot of ground with this high-intensity tactic, but this guy needs his movements to be efficient for him to have actual value in the setup). He will move and do some one-twos with his partner in MC position. He needs to act fast, again, to avoid loss of possession.
Priority: First touch, Decisions, Off the Ball, Vision, Work Rate, Acceleration, Agility
IF-Su: They will help with the possession, just like everyone. But you also need them to understand when the opportunity for a goal is unfolding. Someone needs to score at some point and your IFs will most probably be your best bet!
Priority: First touch, Finishing, Composure, Decision, Flair, Off the Ball, Vision, Acceleration, Agility
F9-Su: This is by far the most complex role out there. You WILL want to try different players and see which one does what you want. The balance of selfishness and teamwork is hard to get. Some "better" players may not be the best here... You really need someone who'll drop in the middle to help with possession and surprisingly gets forward for no reason at some point to unsettle the defensive line. This guy needs to be unpredictable for the adversary... which also kind of means I'm not sure what is the recipe for success! Here is what my best options had in common over my tests:
Priority: First touch, Finishing, Dribbling, Composure, Flair, Off the Ball, Acceleration, Agility
All players: Finally, this is a high-tempo tactic... which means you need all your players to have good stamina. An other thing I can tell, is that good roster depth is important. Even with good stamina, you will need to rotate your selection once in a while. That and to deal with suspensions because unfortunately you will accumulate a lot of yellow cards (haven't had much reds though, so that's good).
-- Tactical concept --
The tactic will provide extreme possession in front of the opponent box, with fast short passes to keep possession without risking being closed-in. The lateral players will come inside on attacking movement while go wide on defense. While this may seem counter-intuitive, the best counterattacks need to go through non-used space to be fully effective, so widening up when you lose possession actually translates in faster pression on the counter-attacking opponent, at a point where a fine-tuned team will actually get to the ball before the opponent get to it, almost always.
It is well known that possession for possession sake is a bad and fruitless approach. The "attacking" mentality helps trying to actually create chances and get some through balls and shots in when the opportunity is decent!
-- How to tweak the tactic during the game --
At the start of the season, opponents may try to attack against you, which will lead to easy wins. As soon as they realize you have a dangerous approach, they will most probably park the bus and hope for a break. With this tactic, one break can kill your game as they will have a lot of space behind your defenders. You need to monitor how you lose the ball, even at the FIRST highlight where you see a counter-attack. They will have one or two of those in the game... so correct whatever is needed.
If the problem is that you players took too much time with ball at their feet and got tackled, you can actually abuse and get up to "very attacking" mentality. You may lose the ball more, but for goal kicks, instead of counter attacks. Goal kicks are not as dangerous since you will be regrouped and get possession back more easily.
If the problem is more "long passes" intercepted wastefully, bring down the mentality to "positive" or even "balanced".
Other than that, just be alert and tweak individual instructions according to the problem you're witnessing!
-- OI and training --
OI: Do not let your AssMan do it. I leave it all blank, but sometimes push a little "tackle harder" or "press more" on the opponent fastest striker if he is breaking my line too easily. Other than that, OI simply disrupt the general idea of being "in charge" of the game
Training: I let my AssMan do the General Training (Better use your own, but I'm a tactics guy... I couldn't do good trainings even if my life depended on it). For individual training, I do positional training for where I will use the player, with those roles:
SK - A
BPD - D
IWB - S
BWM - S
DLP - S
IF - S
AP - S
F9 - A
As you can see, some positions are "trained" not with the role they are used in for the tactic. This is because the role has been tweaked for the actual behavior to correspond to my team play philosophy, but the attributes I want to work on are not necessarily the ones highlighted for the player role.
-- Your input --
Please feel free to try it out and comment with your personal tweaks! This is what I call wonderful football. It is not a "game engine breaking tactic" and needs intelligent input not to fall into the "frustrating high-possession yet losing to a 21:1 ratio of shots" category of tactics
Anyone here using a strikeless tactic seen any difference in using the Attacking midfields ratings vs the fast strikers ratings for their top line?
I'm using the AMC/Wingers ratings even if there are no strikers up front. It's working well, but wondering if anyone tries to use other ratings?
I tried to put my best "target striker" as my AMC in my strikerless tactic and THAT went poorly.
So kudos to you!
I have two questions that occured while trying it in a low-league save of mine
1) Following the formulaes I can find, I don't understand this (see screenshot). With 4 in an attribute, I'd think his "factor" would be (4-8)/12=-0.333. So I guess there's a supplemental penalty hidden but I don't know where
2) Why do you set "score < 0 --> score = 0" ? Is this a limitation for your squad builder? UI limitation? In one of my saves, in a low league, most players have a negative score (and I am doing a youth-only challenge, so no transfers in!). Trying to optimize my pityfull team so I'd guess I'd field my "less bad" lads
Again, AMAZING tool, and slick visual! Love it
Another thing: Your "change log" shows "built" as time.now, not the time of the actual build. Keep up the good work and I hope you're having great holidays (if you celebrate it!).
vs
Loaner club's training + First team appearances
Has anyone also crunched the numbers for progress between "optimized training" and "loaned players". When a player goes on loan (and let's say he is starter at the loaner club), you can't set his training for [Chosen training]+[Quickness]+[Double], but his progress is uncapped since he'll get many first team appearances.
My little-to-no-basis instinct would be that one should only loan a player if his attributes distribution is already optimal, but with high untapped PA. Any player with high PA and suboptimal attributes distribution should stay with our training to start skewing his attributes back the right way.
Thoughts?
I have two questions that occured while trying it in a low-league save of mine
1) Following the formulaes I can find, I don't understand this (see screenshot). With 4 in an attribute, I'd think his "factor" would be (4-8)/12=-0.333. So I guess there's a supplemental penalty hidden but I don't know where
2) Why do you set "score < 0 --> score = 0" ? Is this a limitation for your squad builder? UI limitation? In one of my saves, in a low league, most players have a negative score (and I am doing a youth-only challenge, so no transfers in!). Trying to optimize my pityfull team so I'd guess I'd field my "less bad" lads
Again, AMAZING tool, and slick visual! Love it
Usually would agree, but in a "Youth academy challenge", that is not an option. I am aware how the challenge makes it very very difficult, but let's say for "academic" interest, if we have any data on what (if any) part-time training can min/max CA gains toward meta attributes, and how it compares to the best full-time ones.
This is purely out of curiosity, to further some understanding of training mechanisms.
In other words, is it true that "high pace = best decisions" or is the huge success of pace more an indicator that ME does not make "decisions" and "vision" shine enough during the play-by-play computations.
@harvestgreen22
@Gerrard
You guys (or gals) have tested things WAY more than the average Joe. Your inputs on this might help MANY players better understand their favorite games. As I also saw many people getting disenchanted with the ME, while I feel all of your findings are not as damning as it seems.
First, the concept of "meta" tactics, for which Gerrard feels like the unequaled master. For FM24, most of the best tactics are a variation of some 424 Gegenpress. Others can perform, but those seem to have the best results. Every FM iteration has their "meta" startegies that give statistically better results.
Second, the concept of "meta" attibutes, for which we all agree that Pace/Acceleration dominate for some time now, with some tweaks in the weighting in different opuses. Many have tested this and the quality of data and analysis amazes me.
It is very obvious to me, after reading all of the rigorous works like
https://fm-arena.com/thread/14009-attribute-testing-football-manager-24/page-1/
https://fm-arena.com/thread/15934-summary-of-recent-findings-for-optimal-play-in-fm24-amp-fm26/page-1/
Plus all the tactics hall of fame that there is indeed a way to play the game to optimize the RESULT.
Where I find myself left with a sense of misunderstanding is the why. So there is my question:
Is the match engine:
1 Complex and as advertised, but with inherent (and unavoidable... this is a simulation) imbalances that make some tactics/attributes stand out more in the "results" department
2 An illusion of complexity, but actually very simplified, with barely any real-time micro-calculations that are attributes-specific
I personnally feel like all the data we have does NOT actually point toward option 2, unlike many comments and analysis I find in FM-Arena. However, I have never done rigorous testing, data mining, code testing, or anything. So I just want to share my hypothesis so I can better understand FM's match engine and, mostly, how much fun us tacticians can have with it
Hypothesis: The match engine is ACTUALLY complex and taking into accounts live micro-computations that use all attributes and tactic tweaks, even if attribute testing shows that many attributes have no impact on results.
How does that hypothesis still fits the concept of meta tactic and meta attributes:
Let's say that you want to play positionnal play, based on many passes in tight spaces. If the match engine is made in such a way that no player can find a real good space, you will never achieve good positional play / tiki-taka style. Even a player with 20 Off-the-ball and 1 Pace, could find the best "pocket of space" ACCORDING to the ME, if the ME does not suggest the best spot, his "amazing skill" won't help at all.
On the other hand, if the player is the opposite (20 Pace, 1 Off the Ball), even if he doesn't find a good pocket of space, he'll be the first on the ball anyways. So as a "result", fast players would be better even in "positional play" possession tactics. Not because he finds better pockets, but because the ME can't find good pockets for any of both those players... so the fast one, at least, can still be useful.
Another example: If a player receives the ball and has 3 options. 1 good, 2 bad. Let's say the Engine looks at "decision" for a fast computation of the next play. If the ME is made so a 1-Decision player has 80% chances of taking the right decision while a 20-Decision player has a 95% chance, then, very clearly, the "Decision" attribute ha little-to-no value. Not because it is not used in the computation, but because it does not have a realistic impact ingame.
Many have hypothesised that a player with high Pace makes better decisions (leaning toward the idea that the match engine is actually over-simplified with a "general" rating for each actions). But just looking at the results does not necessarily points toward that. A fast player might provide better results because the ME is not good at providing intelligent options anyways, so the fast player will just be generally way off his marker when he makes his move.
Where my hypothesis falls short
Vision, decision, off the ball, positionning are attributes that are very tough to understand. If the ME forces players to find some specific pockets of space depending on their roles/attributes and those pockets are not the "smartest ones" (because you know... football IS complicated), a player with high vision might still do weird stuff ingame. Just because the ME might think it's good.
But when I see someone with 3 Long shots pull a top-corner screamer in, then I feel a little bit weirded out. So this is why I'm still very much wondering how the ME actually works, and how micro-computations within a game are actually made.
How are attributes testing working with different tactics
If attributes testing are done with a "meta tactic" (which is wide/fast/gegenpress-heavy), then maybe we are actually skewing our perception of attributes importance toward physical a lot. Let's say we look at a hyper-conservative possession-heavy tactic, how would attributes scale up? I would guess that whatever the attributes, those tactics will score lower. This has been thoroughly seen. But would Pace/Accel/Dribb still be that high up? Would Vision/Off-the-Ball show their head slightly above the water of "no impact"?
That might provide insight on how the ME actually works.
******************************
I conclude this by saying that I see many amazing analystst and data crunchers in these threads. My question really leads to this:
- As a FM tactician who would LOVE to create club DNAs and "chose" a style, adjusting games and using the complexity of our favorite sport, can the ME actually evolve the right way or is it too simplified and there is no hope in actually finding nuances in performance and style of individuals outside of meta attributes?
If my hypothesis is right, then the problem is simply that the ME is not yet providing players with "smarts", or giving enough weight of some attributes (IMO, 1 vision means the player looks at his feet 99% of the time, maybe the ME just says: let's drop his options by 5%), or just not attributing "success probability" to actions the right way, making a 20 decision player still making decisions that won't help the team. Meaning that possession tactics don't work because smart players don't lead to smart plays. But fast players lead to easy plays.
If my hypothesis is wrong, then yeah... the ME won't realistically evolve anytime soon and we'll have to keep playing pace monsters to reproduce possession-heavy tactics that can't really work anyways.
P.S. Training is not as advertised, that much seems certain. But my questionning here is solely on the ME. Training is it's own subject.
Back to the drawing board!
Please, add screenshots of the tactic and some results with it.
Thank you.
My bad, this was a copy from other forums and pictures didn't follow :|
I just added some screenshots. One analysis of a typical game (possession, number of passes, zone of action) was added too considering this tactic is more about its STYLE than its RESULTS (which are still very good if you build a decent team around it).
4-2-3-1 Highly entertaining - High Possession - High Success - Not Plug'n'Play
-- General comments --
This is my first uploaded tactic ever, and the reason is simple: For the first time, I've managed to make my players play the actual way I wanted them to play.
Like many others, I've been inspired by Barcelona's high possession approach of the golden days '10-'11. Match engines of diverse FM editions have been tough on tactic creators with a possession-oriented mind. After testing and tweaks, I can finally present a tactic that covers all my personal needs:
- Full blown control of the game: 70%+ possession
- Maximum possession in front of the box, center field
- High number of passes between central midfielders (DM / MC / AMC)
- Actual attacking intent, with through balls and dribbles
- Highly frustrating: Low-to-none xG from the opponent
-- Latest update -- (21.4.0 - See name of attached files)
21.2.0: In this new release, the inside forwards are instructed to get more runs behind the defenders when in the last third. This provides better clean chances to replace the frustrating blocked long shots.
DM was also recycled in a Half-Back to help the defenders. Possession remained unchanged, but defense got a little more solid. Both central defenders are now a little less important in the passing game and can concentrate on their defensive positioning.
AMC got "promoted" to Attacking Playmaker so his participation to the central passing game reflects his importance in the wanted system.
21.3.0: Wing backs dropped to DR/DL positions for better defending. Set piece routines modified for better overall results! Maybe other minor tweaks here and there
21.4.0: The "Gentlemen" version is upon us! (Stick with V21.3.0 if you have underdog team or if your team isn't yet Total Control-ready
Stay on feet: I've always wanted my team to play clean football, with less cards. First and foremost, because I'm a softie and I don't want talented players to get hurt. On a tactical level, I want to avoid having to make substitutions based on suspensions or based on fear of suspesion. With this new approach, I had the chance to stop replacing both my DC in the middle of the game... and actually sub in my offensive players for more punch late game. Finally, the tactic is as "aggressive" as ever when out-of-possession, aiming at high-pressure and getting back the ball BETWEEN players instead of at their feet. You press, they have to make a quick decision. Since their tactic won't ever have the structure to help them make that decision (like Total Control does), most likely they'll try a pass that your players can intercept. Never need to go to the ground, you outsmart them. Clean team, still wins !
Set pieces: Some tweaks to strengthen the capacity of getting back possession if the set piece fails to find your dangerous players in time.
--
Obviously, this tactic is not perfect. None is. It is highly NOT plug-and-play. The main reason is that the "roles" of the players on the pitch are not exactly what the "description" of their roles is. I had to change the roles and instructions so that the players actually acted the way I wanted on the field, even if the text wasn't pointing toward it. You then truly need to check your players stats since a "good" defender according to the game for this position may not be your actual best choice!
-- Player Selection --
For player selection, as a rule of thumbs, you will ALWAYS need to have good stats (even for defenders!) for:
- First touch
- Decision
- Vision
- Off the ball
- Positioning
This is an extremely high-tempo tactic, where the players will need to think and act fast. Without those stats, expect mistakes. And if you make mistakes, just like any possession tactics, you will pay dearly. The actual numbers needed depend on your league level. Aim for those stats to be at least above average. You can deal with lower speed, which is usually a stat that boost the price of players.
Remember, the Match Engine provides a complex fast-paced and intricate decision making process for your team as a whole. Sometimes, an attribute not listed here (may it be high or low) can make a player unsuited for the tactic because it sligthly affects his split-second decision toward something you don't want for the tactic to work. My thoughts about this? Don't buy 100M$ players... get a couple of lower-priced guys and try them out. Or better yet, train them yourself. Team cohesion > Individual stats anyways.
Specifically:
SK-De: You want an agressive keeper with good communication. Since most of the opportunities from your opponents will come from breakouts and one-on-one, no need for him to actually be a good "shot stopper"! Good aerial reach may also help for corners and such, as usual.
Priority: Communication, Aerial Reach, One on Ones, Rushing out, Anticipation, Decision, First touch
CD-De: Your defenders are your last hope at killing the counter-attacks and also need to be able to recycle possession. They will be used in the passing game so they need not to panic and kick the ball far away. They also need to think fast since them losing possession is a 80% chance of getting scored against...
Priority: First Touch, Marking, Anticipation, Decision, Positioning, Pace, Jumping Reach (for set pieces)
IWB-Su: Not your typical lateral defender. They will be sitting near the center of the pitch and become passing options during attacking movements. They are amongst the prime creators because, unlike the APs, they are usually marked with less rigor. You need smart players but again, other managers in the game will value fast lateral defenders almost exclusively, so you should be able to get one that is smart and just somewhat fast... or train one!
Priority: First touch, Marking, Anticipation, Decision, Off the Ball, Positioning, Acceleration, Pace
BWM-Su: This guy does everything. He'll receive a lot of passes, especially when your opponent starts parking the bus. Forward passes will become trickier, so the team will look to go through him, with some one-twos, to unlock spaces. With his role, he'll also be on the lookout and jump on the adversary whenever possession is lost. Get yourself an all-star here and he'll solidify the tactic.
Priority: First touch, Marking, Agression, Anticipation, Concentration, Decision, Off the Ball, Positioning, Work rate, Acceleration, Strength, (Long Shots)*
* The long shot attribute shouldn't be a priority, but it's a good-to-have. The reason is that no one should actively try to shoot from afar, but when the opponent starts parking the bus, your players may have no choice at some point. And from what I've seen, the one with the best opportunities to do a long shot with an actual good line-of-sight to the goal is your BWM. Mine scores a screamer every other game and it helps when my opponent tries to frustrate me
AP-Su (In CM position): One of the toughest position to find someone suitable. This AP will be surrounded, always, by adversaries and teammates alike. He is the one who needs the best Vision and Decision making skills since he'll have sooooo many options and dangers around him. If he makes the right decision, you'll win. If he doesn't, your team will be pressured into mistakes more often, and this tactic is not forgiving
Priority: First touch, Composure, Concentration, Decision, Vision
AP-Su (In AMC position): This guy will move around the other AP to give him some passes opportunities. So a little more movement is needed from him (everyone covers a lot of ground with this high-intensity tactic, but this guy needs his movements to be efficient for him to have actual value in the setup). He will move and do some one-twos with his partner in MC position. He needs to act fast, again, to avoid loss of possession.
Priority: First touch, Decisions, Off the Ball, Vision, Work Rate, Acceleration, Agility
IF-Su: They will help with the possession, just like everyone. But you also need them to understand when the opportunity for a goal is unfolding. Someone needs to score at some point and your IFs will most probably be your best bet!
Priority: First touch, Finishing, Composure, Decision, Flair, Off the Ball, Vision, Acceleration, Agility
F9-Su: This is by far the most complex role out there. You WILL want to try different players and see which one does what you want. The balance of selfishness and teamwork is hard to get. Some "better" players may not be the best here... You really need someone who'll drop in the middle to help with possession and surprisingly gets forward for no reason at some point to unsettle the defensive line. This guy needs to be unpredictable for the adversary... which also kind of means I'm not sure what is the recipe for success! Here is what my best options had in common over my tests:
Priority: First touch, Finishing, Dribbling, Composure, Flair, Off the Ball, Acceleration, Agility
All players: Finally, this is a high-tempo tactic... which means you need all your players to have good stamina. An other thing I can tell, is that good roster depth is important. Even with good stamina, you will need to rotate your selection once in a while. That and to deal with suspensions because unfortunately you will accumulate a lot of yellow cards (haven't had much reds though, so that's good).
-- Tactical concept --
The tactic will provide extreme possession in front of the opponent box, with fast short passes to keep possession without risking being closed-in. The lateral players will come inside on attacking movement while go wide on defense. While this may seem counter-intuitive, the best counterattacks need to go through non-used space to be fully effective, so widening up when you lose possession actually translates in faster pression on the counter-attacking opponent, at a point where a fine-tuned team will actually get to the ball before the opponent get to it, almost always.
It is well known that possession for possession sake is a bad and fruitless approach. The "attacking" mentality helps trying to actually create chances and get some through balls and shots in when the opportunity is decent!
-- How to tweak the tactic during the game --
At the start of the season, opponents may try to attack against you, which will lead to easy wins. As soon as they realize you have a dangerous approach, they will most probably park the bus and hope for a break. With this tactic, one break can kill your game as they will have a lot of space behind your defenders. You need to monitor how you lose the ball, even at the FIRST highlight where you see a counter-attack. They will have one or two of those in the game... so correct whatever is needed.
If the problem is that you players took too much time with ball at their feet and got tackled, you can actually abuse and get up to "very attacking" mentality. You may lose the ball more, but for goal kicks, instead of counter attacks. Goal kicks are not as dangerous since you will be regrouped and get possession back more easily.
If the problem is more "long passes" intercepted wastefully, bring down the mentality to "positive" or even "balanced".
Other than that, just be alert and tweak individual instructions according to the problem you're witnessing!
-- OI and training --
OI: Do not let your AssMan do it. I leave it all blank, but sometimes push a little "tackle harder" or "press more" on the opponent fastest striker if he is breaking my line too easily. Other than that, OI simply disrupt the general idea of being "in charge" of the game
Training: I let my AssMan do the General Training (Better use your own, but I'm a tactics guy... I couldn't do good trainings even if my life depended on it). For individual training, I do positional training for where I will use the player, with those roles:
SK - A
BPD - D
IWB - S
BWM - S
DLP - S
IF - S
AP - S
F9 - A
As you can see, some positions are "trained" not with the role they are used in for the tactic. This is because the role has been tweaked for the actual behavior to correspond to my team play philosophy, but the attributes I want to work on are not necessarily the ones highlighted for the player role.
-- Your input --
Please feel free to try it out and comment with your personal tweaks! This is what I call wonderful football. It is not a "game engine breaking tactic" and needs intelligent input not to fall into the "frustrating high-possession yet losing to a 21:1 ratio of shots" category of tactics