Pip said: I have created a new Ratings file for Genie Scout.
I have used the same values for all positions at the moment, and only for CB, FB, DM, W and FS positions - thats the formation I am using. I will add more later.
I think my maths is correct - i have set Pace & Acc as 100 and factored the other values up in relation to that - happy to be corrected.
I have tried your ratings with minor tweaks to centre back / full backs. I used the editor to add around 25 players to ipswich town who had market value under 7M with the highest current ratings according to the ratings file. Didn't touch anything no set piece no staff etc. simmed the whole season with the highest rating tactic here won the PL with 85 points, the purpose was to see if it can win the PL with undervalued players using this file, here are the relevant screenshots First screenshot was taken after first season, all of the players added were under 7M transfer value
ifilipic16 said: Thinking about this and how i saw my players develop. Could it be reputation of opposing teams is what affects player development. As i go forward with my San Marino BAN i found my players would get stuck at a low CA cap even with 20 training facilities. Something like 120CA when clubs in my league had half a star reputation. Now that they are up to 2 start even my backups go up to 140CA without playing that much in CL. Expand
Maybe the team reputation is the key factor instead of league, @harvestgreen22 can you test the team reputation as well?
I think the method used is flexible according to the needs of the actual situation,
1. For example, players in a lower league, let's say that the average young player between the ages of 15 and 18 has only 100 PA, about 70 CA,
Then, the CA they can grow is "100-70=30". Since "30" is low.
They do not have enough "residual CA" to grow "technical and spiritual" at the same time, so training that is more inclined to physical attributes can make them ultimately have higher "combat effectiveness".
2. In contrast to the other situation, suppose that the player in a good club, 15-18 years old young players generally have 170 PA, about 70 CA,
Then, the CA they can grow is "170-70=100". Such a large number of "residual CA" is enough for players to develop in different types of attributes
That said, in this case, you may need to worry about whether the "100" remaining CA will be used up in time before the player age 25, If the 100 "surplus CA" is not used up in time, it is a waste of PA
3. another situation I mentioned on the 1st floor, or you can just look at the linked table:
physical class attributes that have a hard-coded scale/numerical upper limit.
For the same training schedule, at age 20, it increases the CA by 22.5, assuming an increase in Pace of 2-2.5 At age 18, it increases the CA by 30.5, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5 At age 15, it increases the CA by 29, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5 At the age of 23, it increases the CA by 20, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5
The above results are based on the test conditions of 30 matches. If you look at my previous post, there was a part of the test that was "0 matches played", and for that case, it also only increased the Pace by 2-2.5
So what happened to the extra CA? For example, at age 20, it increases CA by 22.5, and at age 18, it increases CA by 30.5. They differ by 30.5 - 22.5 = 8 As you can see in the table, the "8" ,they are mostly assigned to technical and mental attributes
In other words, the golden age of 15-18 years old , Training technique and mental class stats is far more effective, Training the physical attributes is also more effective, but only slightly increases the effect
Being much more effective doesn't mean you have to do it. Like I said, I think it's Adjust according to the actual situation
In my training schedule above, the growth of the physical is more independent of the number of match played, that is, even if there is no match at all, their physical part growth will not be significantly reduced By the same principle, the CA brought about by the increase in the number of matches is more allocated to the "technical and mental" attributes , and More match played than 30 will further increase the value of "30.5" for 17-18-year-olds in this picture Expand
What is the league reputation of your test file? Does it affect the test results significantly?
Can you do the same test for u19 players in u19 league reputation?
Yarema said: Does it? I feel people seriously underestimate the power of CA growth for young players. Your 85 CA 18 year old physical freaks will not get any decent loans, you'll have to keep them at the club costing their further growth because of lack of competitive game time plus you'll want to guide their development. I find that it is unnecessary to cap CA growth, you can reach 20 pace and acceleration on "normal" schedules from these tests. Expand
Not all youngsters have 160+ CA, so the amount of CA is limited that's why I would rather use the one I've mentioned
This shows that by far [Rest]+[Double Intensity]+[Addtional Focus Quickness] is the best training for Players under 19 (not including 19). Thank you for sharing this
https://imgur.com/a/YZRx9Iv Compare M10 and Z10, To my great surprise Test conditions, Change From age 20, to age 17,
CA increased from 20s to 30s per season, Physical attributes, no proportional increase, And this part of the increase in CA is basically technical and mental. Expand
flob said: Really? I always had the impression that the assistant manager would change things up then. How do you deal with new players as they are not assigned? Change it back to set it up and then back to assistant manager? Expand
You can always say take control this time then it won't be an issue, AFAIK assistant manager only changes individual training if there is no training assigned
flob said: So I have been trying L5, but I noticed that some players seem to state that they are unhappy with the additional focus and some players can't seem to grow in it anymore, assuming I should not ignore these messages.
What would I need to do for the main squad, when I see those messages? Expand
Delegate all of your training to assistant manager after arranging them, this will keep your players happy and your assistant manager won't fiddle with your arrangements
Key Term(Margin of growth/Progression): The difference between PA and CA. A larger Margin means more growth.
Using 30000 data points he came up with these conclusions by 4 age ranges and overall conclusions. Under 20 Years:
Margin of progression has a huge impact at this stage Determination needs to be at least 6, after which the impact increase is smaller Professionalism stops mattering at 15 Even 200-300 minutes of playing time can have big impact, though minutes played matter less compared to other age groups Training Facilities stop mattering past 17 League reputation is not a huge factor Injuries don't have much impact
20-25 Years:
While margin is very important, playtime and division reputation are big factors Professionalism up to 11 doesn't change growth much, but there's a big increase for each point after that Ambition has fairly small impact Injuries have relatively small impact Training facilities appear to stop mattering past 16
25-30 Years:
Development naturally slows down or halts Playing a lot and at a high level is still key Injuries start gaining relevance Fast increase in growth impact when determination is up to 10, slows after Professionalism should be at least 6, after which it has relatively small influence Training Facilities do matter all the way up to 20
Over 30 Years:
Margin has no effect on player decay, but Current Ability does (higher CA means faster decline) Professionalism is the "undisputed king" of Hidden Attributes in stopping decay Ambition only needs to be at least 7, after which it doesn't matter Training Facilities do not affect player decay at all League reputation doesn't have a big impact Injuries have a very large impact at this stage Players should play at least 3000 minutes to help stop decay
This breakdown shows how the importance of different factors shifts dramatically across a player's career, from development-focused in younger years to decay-prevention in later years.
I think watching the video and looking at the data even more conclusions could be found.
I do think the age ranges could have noise to them but I'm sure he has the tools to gauge that in the future.
I find this to be a great second part to the puzzle that @harvestgreen22 found. If I were to use an analogy of taxes to explain the difference between the two studies, the video talks about what effects the amount in taxes(growth) the government(player) takes in, while the harvestgreen22 study talks about how the taxes are distributed to the people(attributes). Expand
ZaZ said: I am currently trying the schedule below. The goal is to use double intensity to allow me to focus on sessions that really matter, aiming to maximize CA growth while having good emphasis on physical attributes. Expand
@harvestgreen22 Not easy to test, but in theory with how little sessions it takes to redistribute, can you just use vacation days to train certain player groups on certain days. Like Monday can be Attacker day and Wednesday can be Defender Day. Expand
Han106 said: I've read through the whole thing and I agree this is revolutionary. However, I have a problem with the attributes being prioritized. Pace and Acceleration are important for all positions, but I am not too sure about the importance of Jumping Reach for positions other than Centerback. This is because of this post from FM21 where some developers used machine learning in order to create attribute weights and I believe until an updated study is done is the best we have in terms of information on the best attributes.
I personally for FM24 use a derivative one of Zaz's weight of the study's weightings. These are all the weightings, up to 100, that are above 45 in my weightings. Not sure if it is the best weightings but it is what I use to evaluate players. Is there a way to fit the trainings to fit the way I want to train my players, (not prioritizing Jumping Reach)
ta2199 said: Its true bro. I just try this schedule and actually player CA drop crazy haha. But indeed what he said still stay true. Even though Technical and Mental attributes drop. Physical attributes increases. But not worth it IMO. Better aim for overall growth <-> Schedule 4 actually better Expand
Not to mention the sharpness is constantly low which results in worse results..
ZaZ said: I see two major flaws for that strategy:
1. You might grow those three attributes at the same speed, but you are hindered everywhere else. That means your players will be subpar for years, in the hope of achieving higher performance after several years. That is especially true for players with less minutes of play. Remember, focusing just in those attributes would only make a difference if the character reaches PA, which will never happen with that schedule.
2. Because your players will grow CA slower, that means you will profit less from transfers. Having more income increases your budget, which allows you to hire more players with high physical attributes, ready for instant impact. Expand
Maybe we should choose something like L5 group to get best of both worlds, thoughts?
Footballenjoyer said: Ok Assuming this is right after reading all these, You don't assign any Individual Position training to any players to avoid assigning any weighting to 'Mental' and 'Technical' Attribute. You can just get ST/AM and just play them in position you need to maximize growth? Since Familiarity is mostly from playing matches in those positions. Expand
I think we are better off leaving the position as blank,
I didn't quite understand the part where he said "Yes, in game I will choose the position I need him"
You can use the same training schedule all season long, But if you want to change it halfway through due to heavy match in some weeks , that's fine , Do as you like
3 match in a week : This is common at the top level in the UK "all rest.no training"
2 match in a week : If you're worried about injury risk (4), Reduce 1-2 times [Match Practice] , If you don't think it's enough, don't train, just all rest
1 match in a week : (1),(2),(3) is safe for injury risk (4),If you have someone who is particularly tired, give them an extra 1-2 day off in the personal setting (right click) , or free to Reduce [Match Practice] by 1-2 time , Do as you like
0 match in a week : Do as you like This sometimes leads to a lack of Sharpness and team cohesion, If you're really worried, add extra training for Sharpness and team cohesion, or friendly match 1-2 in week, Expand
Is it necessary to put match practice to seperate days? Can we do it back to back in one day of training?
harvestgreen22 said: Are you talking about the coaching staff? (My English is not capable of understanding too complicated words.)
For the coach assignment: I didn't do a quantitative test, In the above test, I used the coaches team of the same ability given by the original author.
In the actual game : Since we only need to get the best out of 3 attributes, Pace, Acceleration, Jumping reach , then, we only need to hire the "best" Fitness Coach, and other coach , Like tactics, goalkeeping, attack, defense, doesn't have to hire a good one, a average coach is acceptable . Expand
Do you choose the training position of the player? Or you leave it blank?
I have used the same values for all positions at the moment, and only for CB, FB, DM, W and FS positions - thats the formation I am using. I will add more later.
I think my maths is correct - i have set Pace & Acc as 100 and factored the other values up in relation to that - happy to be corrected.
https://www.transfernow.net/dl/202501105H370cHr
Thank you for this,
I have tried your ratings with minor tweaks to centre back / full backs.
I used the editor to add around 25 players to ipswich town who had market value under 7M with the highest current ratings according to the ratings file.
Didn't touch anything no set piece no staff etc. simmed the whole season with the highest rating tactic here won the PL with 85 points, the purpose was to see if it can win the PL with undervalued players using this file, here are the relevant screenshots
First screenshot was taken after first season, all of the players added were under
7M transfer value
Maybe the team reputation is the key factor instead of league, @harvestgreen22 can you test the team reputation as well?
https://pixeldrain.com/u/R3imL2wX
I think the method used is flexible according to the needs of the actual situation,
1.
For example, players in a lower league, let's say that the average young player between the ages of 15 and 18 has only 100 PA, about 70 CA,
Then, the CA they can grow is "100-70=30".
Since "30" is low.
They do not have enough "residual CA" to grow "technical and spiritual" at the same time, so training that is more inclined to physical attributes can make them ultimately have higher "combat effectiveness".
2.
In contrast to the other situation, suppose that the player in a good club, 15-18 years old young players generally have 170 PA, about 70 CA,
Then, the CA they can grow is "170-70=100".
Such a large number of "residual CA" is enough for players to develop in different types of attributes
That said, in this case,
you may need to worry about whether the "100" remaining CA will be used up in time before the player age 25,
If the 100 "surplus CA" is not used up in time, it is a waste of PA
3.
another situation I mentioned on the 1st floor, or you can just look at the linked table:
physical class attributes that have a hard-coded scale/numerical upper limit.
For the same training schedule, at age 20, it increases the CA by 22.5, assuming an increase in Pace of 2-2.5
At age 18, it increases the CA by 30.5, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5
At age 15, it increases the CA by 29, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5
At the age of 23, it increases the CA by 20, again only increasing the Pace by 2-2.5
The above results are based on the test conditions of 30 matches.
If you look at my previous post, there was a part of the test that was "0 matches played", and for that case, it also only increased the Pace by 2-2.5
So what happened to the extra CA?
For example, at age 20, it increases CA by 22.5, and at age 18, it increases CA by 30.5.
They differ by 30.5 - 22.5 = 8
As you can see in the table, the "8" ,they are mostly assigned to technical and mental attributes
In other words, the golden age of 15-18 years old ,
Training technique and mental class stats is far more effective,
Training the physical attributes is also more effective, but only slightly increases the effect
Being much more effective doesn't mean you have to do it. Like I said, I think it's Adjust according to the actual situation
In my training schedule above, the growth of the physical is more independent of the number of match played, that is, even if there is no match at all, their physical part growth will not be significantly reduced
By the same principle, the CA brought about by the increase in the number of matches is more allocated to the "technical and mental" attributes ,
and More match played than 30 will further increase the value of "30.5" for 17-18-year-olds in this picture
What is the league reputation of your test file? Does it affect the test results significantly?
Can you do the same test for u19 players in u19 league reputation?
Not all youngsters have 160+ CA, so the amount of CA is limited that's why I would rather use the one I've mentioned
https://imgur.com/a/YZRx9Iv
Compare M10 and Z10,
To my great surprise
Test conditions,
Change From age 20, to age 17,
CA increased from 20s to 30s per season,
Physical attributes, no proportional increase,
And this part of the increase in CA is basically technical and mental.
There is no photo on the link i think
You can always say take control this time then it won't be an issue, AFAIK assistant manager only changes individual training if there is no training assigned
What would I need to do for the main squad, when I see those messages?
Delegate all of your training to assistant manager after arranging them, this will keep your players happy and your assistant manager won't fiddle with your arrangements
Key Term(Margin of growth/Progression): The difference between PA and CA. A larger Margin means more growth.
Using 30000 data points he came up with these conclusions by 4 age ranges and overall conclusions.
Under 20 Years:
Margin of progression has a huge impact at this stage
Determination needs to be at least 6, after which the impact increase is smaller
Professionalism stops mattering at 15
Even 200-300 minutes of playing time can have big impact, though minutes played matter less compared to other age groups
Training Facilities stop mattering past 17
League reputation is not a huge factor
Injuries don't have much impact
20-25 Years:
While margin is very important, playtime and division reputation are big factors
Professionalism up to 11 doesn't change growth much, but there's a big increase for each point after that
Ambition has fairly small impact
Injuries have relatively small impact
Training facilities appear to stop mattering past 16
25-30 Years:
Development naturally slows down or halts
Playing a lot and at a high level is still key
Injuries start gaining relevance
Fast increase in growth impact when determination is up to 10, slows after
Professionalism should be at least 6, after which it has relatively small influence
Training Facilities do matter all the way up to 20
Over 30 Years:
Margin has no effect on player decay, but Current Ability does (higher CA means faster decline)
Professionalism is the "undisputed king" of Hidden Attributes in stopping decay
Ambition only needs to be at least 7, after which it doesn't matter
Training Facilities do not affect player decay at all
League reputation doesn't have a big impact
Injuries have a very large impact at this stage
Players should play at least 3000 minutes to help stop decay
This breakdown shows how the importance of different factors shifts dramatically across a player's career, from development-focused in younger years to decay-prevention in later years.
I think watching the video and looking at the data even more conclusions could be found.
I do think the age ranges could have noise to them but I'm sure he has the tools to gauge that in the future.
I find this to be a great second part to the puzzle that @harvestgreen22 found. If I were to use an analogy of taxes to explain the difference between the two studies, the video talks about what effects the amount in taxes(growth) the government(player) takes in, while the harvestgreen22 study talks about how the taxes are distributed to the people(attributes).
thank you for this, keep up the great work
anything new so far?
@harvestgreen22 I don't see a spreadsheet to click on, just pictures so I can't access player--development--Progress--Attributes
I've noticed that your target striker stats are empty, is it because you use advanced forward in your tactics?
Also the fast striker has 0 jumping reach which i find rather odd
@harvestgreen22 Not easy to test, but in theory with how little sessions it takes to redistribute, can you just use vacation days to train certain player groups on certain days. Like Monday can be Attacker day and Wednesday can be Defender Day.
The file you sent has been deleted
I personally for FM24 use a derivative one of Zaz's weight of the study's weightings. These are all the weightings, up to 100, that are above 45 in my weightings. Not sure if it is the best weightings but it is what I use to evaluate players. Is there a way to fit the trainings to fit the way I want to train my players, (not prioritizing Jumping Reach)
Goalkeeper:
Mental:
Concentration: 65
Decisions: 50
Physical:
Agility: 100
Acceleration: 70
Strength: 70
Goalkeeping:
Aerial Reach: 60
Handling: 50
Center Back:
Mental:
Composure: 80
Work Rate: 55
Technical:
Heading: 55
Marking: 55
Passing: 55
Physical:
Acceleration: 90
Pace: 90
Jumping Reach: 65
Agility: 60
Stamina: 50
Strength: 50
Full Back:
Mental:
Work Rate: 90
Off The Ball: 70
Decisions: 45
Technical:
Dribbling: 50
Passing: 50
Tackling: 50
Technique: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 100
Defensive Midfielder:
Mental:
Decisions: 65
Positioning: 65
Teamwork: 65
Composure: 60
Vision: 55
Work Rate: 50
Concentration: 50
Aggression: 50
Flair: 50
Technical:
Passing: 65
Technique: 50
First Touch: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 60
Winger:
Mental:
Work Rate: 75
Technical:
Dribbling: 55
Passing: 50
Finishing: 50
Technique: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 70
Striker:
Mental:
Work Rate: 60
Aggression: 50
Decisions: 45
Technical:
Finishing: 80
Dribbling: 75
Technique: 65
First Touch: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Average weights for all positions whose averages are above 20:
Acceleration: 93.3
Pace: 90.0
Stamina: 62.5
Work Rate: 55.0
Decisions: 49.2
Passing: 42.5
Technique: 41.7
Dribbling: 33.3
Agility: 33.3
Composure: 29.2
First Touch: 28.3
Finishing: 21.7
Concentration: 20.8
Aggression: 20.8
Off The Ball: 20.0
Positioning: 20.0
Strength: 20.0
Could you share your weightings file as well?
Not to mention the sharpness is constantly low which results in worse results..
I guess I will stick with @ZaZ schedule
The @harvestgreen22 schedules are a good niche for specific situations though
1. You might grow those three attributes at the same speed, but you are hindered everywhere else. That means your players will be subpar for years, in the hope of achieving higher performance after several years. That is especially true for players with less minutes of play. Remember, focusing just in those attributes would only make a difference if the character reaches PA, which will never happen with that schedule.
2. Because your players will grow CA slower, that means you will profit less from transfers. Having more income increases your budget, which allows you to hire more players with high physical attributes, ready for instant impact.
Maybe we should choose something like L5 group to get best of both worlds, thoughts?
I think we are better off leaving the position as blank,
I didn't quite understand the part where he said "Yes, in game I will choose the position I need him"
(2).[Quickness]+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity]
(3).[Quickness]+[play from the back]+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity]
(4).[Quickness]+[Match Practice]x2+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity]
You can use the same training schedule all season long,
But if you want to change it halfway through due to heavy match in some weeks , that's fine , Do as you like
3 match in a week :
This is common at the top level in the UK
"all rest.no training"
2 match in a week :
If you're worried about injury risk
(4), Reduce 1-2 times [Match Practice] , If you don't think it's enough, don't train, just all rest
1 match in a week :
(1),(2),(3) is safe for injury risk
(4),If you have someone who is particularly tired, give them an extra 1-2 day off in the personal setting (right click) , or free to Reduce [Match Practice] by 1-2 time , Do as you like
0 match in a week :
Do as you like
This sometimes leads to a lack of Sharpness and team cohesion,
If you're really worried, add extra training for Sharpness and team cohesion, or friendly match 1-2 in week,
Is it necessary to put match practice to seperate days? Can we do it back to back in one day of training?
For the coach assignment: I didn't do a quantitative test,
In the above test, I used the coaches team of the same ability given by the original author.
In the actual game : Since we only need to get the best out of 3 attributes, Pace, Acceleration, Jumping reach , then,
we only need to hire the "best" Fitness Coach,
and other coach , Like tactics, goalkeeping, attack, defense, doesn't have to hire a good one, a average coach is acceptable .
Do you choose the training position of the player? Or you leave it blank?
(Ball playing defender, Advanced forward etc.)