harvestgreen22 said: Simply looking at it, if the table is in blue, it indicates that this tactic is an advantage for this AI head coach. If it is red, it represents a disadvantage. Therefore, if a row of AI head coaches is all red, it indicates that he is very difficult to deal with. His tactics and "tendencies" are very much in line with the "META" of game engines. 简单的看，如果表格里是蓝色，那说明这个战术对这个AI主教练是优势， 如果是红色，则代表是劣势。 因此如果一个AI主教练的一列都是红色，那说明他很不好对付，他的战术和“tendencies”非常符合游戏引擎的“META”
You will notice that the intensity of the tactics of several AI head coaches is even on par with the player's "best of the best" tactics (indicated in red in the table). It even has an advantage over some of these AI head coaches. While some other head coaches can find that almost all their tactics can defeat him by a large margin. This indicates that some of these AI head coaches are actually using the "Meta" strategy
MARCO ROSE From RasenBallsport Leipzig E.V. RB Leipzig
DIEGO SIMEONE From Atletico Madrid
STEFANO PIOLI From Associazione Calcio Milan AC
其中，表现最好的主教练是： MARCO ROSE 罗斯 来自 RasenBallsport Leipzig e.V 莱比锡红牛 DIEGO SIMEONE 西蒙尼 来自 Atletico Madrid 马德里竞技 STEFANO PIOLI 皮奥利 来自 Associazione Calcio Milan AC米兰
You will also notice that two of the tactics are the "Presets" tactics They can only draw with some of the "worst" AI head coaches, such as "PEP GUARDIOLA" 你还会注意到，其中有2个战术是“Presets 预设”战术 他们仅能和一些“最差”的AI主教练，比如“PEP GUARDIOLA”打平手 Expand
Thank you for your hard work! I noticed that Jurgen Klopp underperforms in the match engine despite it seeming like he uses many/most of the important meta instructions. Is there something specific about him vs. Rose/Simeone/Pioli that could reveal what's truly meta?
For additional info: I'm asking because I'm trying to set up a "manager farm" in my building-a-nation save and if we can truly identify the most important AI manager attributes/tactics/tendencies, then I can optimize this.
Zippo said: Guys, a small notice here. Recently, I posted a guide how to search players with FMRTE based on the fm-arena attribute testing. But we found that FMRTE has an issue when it come to the Position Ratings, it's only possible to set them for the striker position and the application evaluates any other positions only on the Striker position ratings.
However, despite the issue, it's still possible to use FMRTE for searching players based on the position rating but it might be very confusing for some people so we decided to remove the guide about FMRTE.
I just wanted to let you what happened to the guide and why it's gone.
Cheers. Expand
Is this post on this forum or a different one? I can't seem to find it either on your profile or just by browsing the forum.
Frankly, I don't think there's a need for loans at all between harvestgreen22 and Zippo's findings. Why waste time quickly developing useless CA in order to get a loan to further quickly develop useless CA when you can spend that time slowly developing only useful CA (unless you're planning on selling the player and never play them).
I also discovered in my vanilla Athletic Bilbao save that players on Basconia still developed as though they were playing matches despite being in a non-playable league. Granted, I was only developing physicals using the optimized training schedules, but still. I saw +3 ACC +4 PAC on one of the players in a single season.
twkmax said: Just looking at the raw results in your most recent post.
By my calculations C12, J11, K10, Q10 are the best options based on how much useful CA they generate.
(@harvestgreen22 I'm not quite sure why you are focussing on E12 and U11?)
Based on my analysis you can pick one of those 4 I listed based on how extreme you want to go with focussing on only developing the 'impactful' attributes.
Most Extreme -> C12 -> J11 -> K10 -> Q10 -> Least Extreme
With C12 and J11 you will lose attributes in other places.
I would say the most 'balanced' option is definitely K10.
(also @harvestgreen22 why did you at some point you switch from 'attacking wings' to 'attacking shadow play'?) Expand
With the new attribute testing posted by Zippo, are you able to redo these training schedule evaluations using Zippo's weights? harvestgreen22 also posted GK attribute weights while Zippo and his team are beginning to test GK attributes as well, so I feel that checking GK attribute progression would also be valuable.
Regarding Matches Played, did you test "Appearances" (i.e. games started + games as substitute) or did you test "Minutes Played"? It seems like each "match played" was a 90 minute appearance, but I'd like to know how spreading those out as, say, 45-minute appearances changes things.
With this additional information, how good is the "Goalkeeping - Shot Stopping" training session? The other thread is primarily focused on Outfield players, but does this make a substantial difference for GK attributes? Because if so, maybe 1x Quickness 1x Shot Stopping for the youth team with a double intensity focus on Agility for goalkeepers would be the best training for youth GK
Thanks for your great work so far! The new tests involving condition and morale have suddenly got me wondering about "Team Cohesion" in the Dynamics tab. The text seems to imply that player performance is amplified with each other when Team Cohesion is high, but I now wonder if this is also decorative
Zippo said: This test is only for outfield players. GK is excluded from the test.
All the outfield players in the human controlled teams in our tactic testing league at the same time get their default attributes changed and tested with 2 values( 8 and 20 ) and then we measure the difference between "8" and "20" values. Expand
Thank you for the clarification, and I'm looking forward to the completion of these tests. As an aside, I'm curious if some of the attributes affect individual player statistics even if they don't affect results/points. For example, Off The Ball is stated to be a decorative attribute, but I wonder if the player still ends up offside more often with a lower rating.
EDIT: actually, this has just gotten me wondering about Player Traits and which ones A) actually do anything at all, and B) are actually affected by the attributes that are implied to affect them (including decorative attributes)
There's another thread made by harvestgreen22 in which he tested goalkeeper attributes, and some of these findings seem to be at odds with his tests. Just to confirm, are these results for any player regardless of position or role?
Completely random thought that's only tangentially related to training: does contract type affect player development? If you have two theoretically equivalent wonderkids but one is on a full-time contract while the other is on a youth contract, do they develop at different rates? The only reason I ask is because whenever I get emails from the coaching staff about signing youngsters to full time contracts, they say it's "so that they can develop" or something along those lines. At least that's what it said in FM23.
tdpm said: I don't quite understand your rationale for choosing S8 for the main squad and X8 for the youth squad. Could you help me understand? Maybe I don't quite know how to read the table. Big thank you! Expand
Just personal preference for how I want to play my saves. If you look at the other thread that OP started, the overall winner is really V7, though there is consideration for a few of the other schedules as well. I suggest heading over to that thread and checking the discussion there to get some extra insight.
Thanks again for your hard work! Seems that the extra Match Practice slots are mostly good at maximizing CA growth while minimizing the number of training slots used. Without the use of the extra MPs, every schedule that has a CA growth of 24 or better uses 6 or more training slots.
I think I'll be using S8 on my main squad and X8 on my youth squads. In semi-pro, I might use A9 or O8 - maybe also X8 - since I only have six slots over three days (only four slots on weeks with one match).
Hi, @harvestgreen22, thank you so much for the research you put into this.
Back in FM23, there was a way to "cheese" extra "Match Practice" training sessions into your schedule by saving a custom training schedule using the "Match" session. If there's no actual match on that day, it gets replaced by a Match Practice slot (to clarify, you place the maximum of 2 Match Practice slots, then you add 2 Match slots on days when there is no match). Does this still work in FM24? And if it does, can I request that you test these extra Match Practice slots?
EDIT: Attached images to add more clarity, and I've tested it in FM24 to make sure it still works. The image above is an example training schedule with 1x Quickness, 2x Match Practice, 3x Match. This other image shows what happens when you apply this training schedule on a week with 0 matches.
EDIT 2: I'd forgotten two things. First, since the only requirements for Match sessions are that they can't be on consecutive days, you can place one on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday for a total of 6x Match Practice on weeks with no matches. Second, I forgot that once you've applied a schedule onto the actual calendar, you can drag and drop sessions wherever you want, meaning you can ALWAYS get 6x Match Practice sessions even on weeks with one or more matches (not that I recommend this due to injury risk). See images below: I've also accidentally discovered another (not recommended) mechanic in case you're willing to take the time and adjust the entire year's calendar yourself. See image below:
Simply looking at it, if the table is in blue, it indicates that this tactic is an advantage for this AI head coach.
If it is red, it represents a disadvantage.
Therefore, if a row of AI head coaches is all red, it indicates that he is very difficult to deal with. His tactics and "tendencies" are very much in line with the "META" of game engines.
简单的看，如果表格里是蓝色，那说明这个战术对这个AI主教练是优势，
如果是红色，则代表是劣势。
因此如果一个AI主教练的一列都是红色，那说明他很不好对付，他的战术和“tendencies”非常符合游戏引擎的“META”
You will notice that the intensity of the tactics of several AI head coaches is even on par with the player's "best of the best" tactics (indicated in red in the table). It even has an advantage over some of these AI head coaches.
While some other head coaches can find that almost all their tactics can defeat him by a large margin.
This indicates that some of these AI head coaches are actually using the "Meta" strategy
你会注意到，几个AI主教练的战术的强度甚至是和玩家“最好中的最好”的战术打成平手（在表格里是红色表示）。甚至对于其中的一些AI主教练有优势。
而另一些主教练，可以发现几乎所有战术都能以大优势赢他。
这说明其中一些AI主教练实际在用“Meta”战术
Among them, the best-performing head coach is:
MARCO ROSE
From RasenBallsport Leipzig E.V. RB Leipzig
DIEGO SIMEONE
From Atletico Madrid
STEFANO PIOLI
From Associazione Calcio Milan AC
其中，表现最好的主教练是：
MARCO ROSE 罗斯 来自 RasenBallsport Leipzig e.V 莱比锡红牛
DIEGO SIMEONE 西蒙尼 来自 Atletico Madrid 马德里竞技
STEFANO PIOLI 皮奥利 来自 Associazione Calcio Milan AC米兰
You will also notice that two of the tactics are the "Presets" tactics
They can only draw with some of the "worst" AI head coaches, such as "PEP GUARDIOLA"
你还会注意到，其中有2个战术是“Presets 预设”战术
他们仅能和一些“最差”的AI主教练，比如“PEP GUARDIOLA”打平手
Thank you for your hard work! I noticed that Jurgen Klopp underperforms in the match engine despite it seeming like he uses many/most of the important meta instructions. Is there something specific about him vs. Rose/Simeone/Pioli that could reveal what's truly meta?
For additional info: I'm asking because I'm trying to set up a "manager farm" in my building-a-nation save and if we can truly identify the most important AI manager attributes/tactics/tendencies, then I can optimize this.
However, despite the issue, it's still possible to use FMRTE for searching players based on the position rating but it might be very confusing for some people so we decided to remove the guide about FMRTE.
I just wanted to let you what happened to the guide and why it's gone.
Cheers.
Is this post on this forum or a different one? I can't seem to find it either on your profile or just by browsing the forum.
Frankly, I don't think there's a need for loans at all between harvestgreen22 and Zippo's findings. Why waste time quickly developing useless CA in order to get a loan to further quickly develop useless CA when you can spend that time slowly developing only useful CA (unless you're planning on selling the player and never play them).
I also discovered in my vanilla Athletic Bilbao save that players on Basconia still developed as though they were playing matches despite being in a non-playable league. Granted, I was only developing physicals using the optimized training schedules, but still. I saw +3 ACC +4 PAC on one of the players in a single season.
By my calculations C12, J11, K10, Q10 are the best options based on how much useful CA they generate.
(@harvestgreen22 I'm not quite sure why you are focussing on E12 and U11?)
Based on my analysis you can pick one of those 4 I listed based on how extreme you want to go with focussing on only developing the 'impactful' attributes.
Most Extreme -> C12 -> J11 -> K10 -> Q10 -> Least Extreme
With C12 and J11 you will lose attributes in other places.
I would say the most 'balanced' option is definitely K10.
(also @harvestgreen22 why did you at some point you switch from 'attacking wings' to 'attacking shadow play'?)
With the new attribute testing posted by Zippo, are you able to redo these training schedule evaluations using Zippo's weights? harvestgreen22 also posted GK attribute weights while Zippo and his team are beginning to test GK attributes as well, so I feel that checking GK attribute progression would also be valuable.
Regarding Matches Played, did you test "Appearances" (i.e. games started + games as substitute) or did you test "Minutes Played"? It seems like each "match played" was a 90 minute appearance, but I'd like to know how spreading those out as, say, 45-minute appearances changes things.
Thanks for this!
All the outfield players in the human controlled teams in our tactic testing league at the same time get their default attributes changed and tested with 2 values( 8 and 20 ) and then we measure the difference between "8" and "20" values.
Thank you for the clarification, and I'm looking forward to the completion of these tests. As an aside, I'm curious if some of the attributes affect individual player statistics even if they don't affect results/points. For example, Off The Ball is stated to be a decorative attribute, but I wonder if the player still ends up offside more often with a lower rating.
EDIT: actually, this has just gotten me wondering about Player Traits and which ones A) actually do anything at all, and B) are actually affected by the attributes that are implied to affect them (including decorative attributes)
Just personal preference for how I want to play my saves. If you look at the other thread that OP started, the overall winner is really V7, though there is consideration for a few of the other schedules as well. I suggest heading over to that thread and checking the discussion there to get some extra insight.
I tested them on Q8-T8
Thanks again for your hard work! Seems that the extra Match Practice slots are mostly good at maximizing CA growth while minimizing the number of training slots used. Without the use of the extra MPs, every schedule that has a CA growth of 24 or better uses 6 or more training slots.
I think I'll be using S8 on my main squad and X8 on my youth squads. In semi-pro, I might use A9 or O8 - maybe also X8 - since I only have six slots over three days (only four slots on weeks with one match).
Back in FM23, there was a way to "cheese" extra "Match Practice" training sessions into your schedule by saving a custom training schedule using the "Match" session. If there's no actual match on that day, it gets replaced by a Match Practice slot (to clarify, you place the maximum of 2 Match Practice slots, then you add 2 Match slots on days when there is no match). Does this still work in FM24? And if it does, can I request that you test these extra Match Practice slots?
EDIT: Attached images to add more clarity, and I've tested it in FM24 to make sure it still works.
The image above is an example training schedule with 1x Quickness, 2x Match Practice, 3x Match.
This other image shows what happens when you apply this training schedule on a week with 0 matches.
EDIT 2: I'd forgotten two things. First, since the only requirements for Match sessions are that they can't be on consecutive days, you can place one on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday for a total of 6x Match Practice on weeks with no matches. Second, I forgot that once you've applied a schedule onto the actual calendar, you can drag and drop sessions wherever you want, meaning you can ALWAYS get 6x Match Practice sessions even on weeks with one or more matches (not that I recommend this due to injury risk). See images below:
I've also accidentally discovered another (not recommended) mechanic in case you're willing to take the time and adjust the entire year's calendar yourself. See image below: