Orion said: I'm expecting to have more free time next month so maybe I'll be able to do something about it. My long-term plan was to also do this analysis for other FM editions I have in my possession at Steam but as said it takes quite some time just to process the seasons and believe me, even thou devs didn't brag about it they optimised the game by A LOT and processing speed between FM24 and FM23 is significant. Can't imagine how slow will it be for older ones.
The data is there and it's possible to just run the analysis using only visible attributes from player's profile (so Technical, Mental, Physical - excluding set pieces/penalty takes). As always it's matter of free time. Expand
flob said: Thanks for replying and testing. I am kinda thinking the same, that Genie does something extra to it. I don't 'need' to use Genie, but I like the extra colomns of 'potential AMLR' etc for seeing how good they can get with their percentages (not the actual PA colomn, dont care about that one), if that's even properly showing. Expand
You might already know this but FYI the potential AMLR is only a guess made by genie scout. And I often see it estimate players way higher with their potential than what actually happens. It often estimates players already in their early 20s with not so great professionalism reaching their potential, which rarely happens.
Tl;dr I can do it and I did it before for 'general model' but it's pointless since after a few attributes the rest become basically a noise in the data.
Also in data analysis and especially in model development not always the more is better. Sometimes you use less features to 'generalise' model so it actually fits better. Another thing is it was meant to use mostly inside the game as an indicator about core attributes. I don't expect anyone to compare players based on 50 attributes. The 6-8 is doable even for 'visual' comparison. Expand
Ok, thanks for getting back to me. I still think there might be some value above 8 attributes. I see what you're saying about the lesser ones making 1% of impact which wouldn't be worth it. But let's say for argument's sake we take the next 3 highest factors for a striker (right now #8 is Composure with 45%), so #9 could be Technique with 36%, #10 Long Shots with 33% and #11 is Passing with 30%. If Jumping is most impactful at 100%, then a player that has Jumping 10 but the 3 I mentioned at 16 would be as effective (in theory) as one with 10 in the ones I mentioned and 16 in Jumping.
A list of top 15 or 20 attributes for each position would be very useful I think!
Anyway, I understand if you're too busy because you're doing this out of your own time to share with the community. If you can't I think I'll tweak your general results from the FM23 test and add them in (the impactful ones).
I'm thinking about this more in order to 'optimize' finding the best player out of curiosity, not just to try to win more games in FM. I use them with genie scout ratings so it's not a lot of trouble for me to insert more attributes (I don't use spreadsheet or a visualizer).
flob said: I am aware, I am purely talking about the results from the formula. As he created a FM Genie file, it should give the same results as it's the same formula. It's now literally the opposite so there is something different. Expand
flob said: I understand. So now, after reading your reply, I decided to try the formula manually for 2 players and with doing it manually, my main AML player (Strjacki) scores higher then the backup player (Lemmens). This is correct. Genie Scout however, with your file, rates it the way around with a massive gap. I'll post some screenshots so you can have a look as you created the Genie Scout file.
Strjacki - main AML
Lemmens - backup AML
Genie Scout picture 1
Genie Scout picture 2
You can see in genie scout picture 2 that I have the colomn sorting at Fast Striker and in picture 1 in combination with 2 where my main AML is listed, including the % compaired to other players, including my backup player Lemmens. It's very strange that Strjacki only scores 66,51% on your Genie Scout File. See the following picture for the FS ratings, just to be sure.
Genie Scout ratings picture for Fast Striker Expand
I don't think you can consider Orion's calculation as an exact prediction. A ton of things go into a player's performance such as player role, consistency, important matches, pressure, time with the club, team-mate synergy, morale, fitness + additional randomness.
I'm sure his formula also isn't 100% fine-tuned e.g. like he mentioned, number of times a player plays in a position, randomness of experiments etc...
I think it's more about using this data to make an educated decision e.g. between which two players to buy. More times than not the one scoring higher does better.
Great work @Orion , I'm happy I now have attribute strength per position available to use! A few have already asked about a larger list of attributes. I'm wondering how much effort it would be to do your tests/calculations for more attributes? I'm thinking this because the 8th attribute for some position is giving in the 30%s percent. I feel like if the 9th is 20% that is still impactful on the player's 'ability'.
You asked where to draw the line? If you'd be able to do the calculation and leave out anything under 10% that would be amazing!
I'm just a bit ocd with stuff like this so I'd love it if I had a more complete genie ratings file.
I'd be happy to create the genie rating file after and share it.
My long-term plan was to also do this analysis for other FM editions I have in my possession at Steam but as said it takes quite some time just to process the seasons and believe me, even thou devs didn't brag about it they optimised the game by A LOT and processing speed between FM24 and FM23 is significant. Can't imagine how slow will it be for older ones.
The data is there and it's possible to just run the analysis using only visible attributes from player's profile (so Technical, Mental, Physical - excluding set pieces/penalty takes). As always it's matter of free time.
Thanks!
You might already know this but FYI the potential AMLR is only a guess made by genie scout. And I often see it estimate players way higher with their potential than what actually happens. It often estimates players already in their early 20s with not so great professionalism reaching their potential, which rarely happens.
Comment 1 ; Comment 2
Tl;dr I can do it and I did it before for 'general model' but it's pointless since after a few attributes the rest become basically a noise in the data.
Also in data analysis and especially in model development not always the more is better. Sometimes you use less features to 'generalise' model so it actually fits better.
Another thing is it was meant to use mostly inside the game as an indicator about core attributes. I don't expect anyone to compare players based on 50 attributes. The 6-8 is doable even for 'visual' comparison.
Ok, thanks for getting back to me. I still think there might be some value above 8 attributes. I see what you're saying about the lesser ones making 1% of impact which wouldn't be worth it. But let's say for argument's sake we take the next 3 highest factors for a striker (right now #8 is Composure with 45%), so #9 could be Technique with 36%, #10 Long Shots with 33% and #11 is Passing with 30%. If Jumping is most impactful at 100%, then a player that has Jumping 10 but the 3 I mentioned at 16 would be as effective (in theory) as one with 10 in the ones I mentioned and 16 in Jumping.
A list of top 15 or 20 attributes for each position would be very useful I think!
Anyway, I understand if you're too busy because you're doing this out of your own time to share with the community. If you can't I think I'll tweak your general results from the FM23 test and add them in (the impactful ones).
I'm thinking about this more in order to 'optimize' finding the best player out of curiosity, not just to try to win more games in FM. I use them with genie scout ratings so it's not a lot of trouble for me to insert more attributes (I don't use spreadsheet or a visualizer).
Oh I see. I misunderstood.
Strjacki - main AML
Lemmens - backup AML
Genie Scout picture 1
Genie Scout picture 2
You can see in genie scout picture 2 that I have the colomn sorting at Fast Striker and in picture 1 in combination with 2 where my main AML is listed, including the % compaired to other players, including my backup player Lemmens. It's very strange that Strjacki only scores 66,51% on your Genie Scout File. See the following picture for the FS ratings, just to be sure.
Genie Scout ratings picture for Fast Striker
I don't think you can consider Orion's calculation as an exact prediction. A ton of things go into a player's performance such as player role, consistency, important matches, pressure, time with the club, team-mate synergy, morale, fitness + additional randomness.
I'm sure his formula also isn't 100% fine-tuned e.g. like he mentioned, number of times a player plays in a position, randomness of experiments etc...
I think it's more about using this data to make an educated decision e.g. between which two players to buy. More times than not the one scoring higher does better.
A few have already asked about a larger list of attributes. I'm wondering how much effort it would be to do your tests/calculations for more attributes? I'm thinking this because the 8th attribute for some position is giving in the 30%s percent. I feel like if the 9th is 20% that is still impactful on the player's 'ability'.
You asked where to draw the line? If you'd be able to do the calculation and leave out anything under 10% that would be amazing!
I'm just a bit ocd with stuff like this so I'd love it if I had a more complete genie ratings file.
I'd be happy to create the genie rating file after and share it.