jflavus said: Is there any video that shares what you say ? I am literally trying to understand but nothing seems to help with my understanding. Expand
It's fine if you don't quite understand the meat of this conversation as a new player. There's a few dudes on YouTube that have done live testing of these schedules to great effect. But they like this training schedule most: [Quickness]+[Match Practice]x2+[Overall]. HarvestGreen22 prefers this most: [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[general Attack]+[Recovery]x7. In another post, he puts up spreadsheets you can open up via Google Sheets to run deeper review of what he tested. But you'll have to note that his data pool is much smaller than what Evidence Based Football Manager did (30). HarvestGreen22's tests appear to be averaged out over 3 seasons starting from certain ages.
jflavus said: Is there anyone who is willing to show me how this training system works and how to adjust it? I am quite new to the game and I am trying to understand what to do and how to implement it to the game. I haven't even started my career yet, it is funny how there is so much to learn in this game but when it is all in writing is so hard to understand. Expand
The whole point of the complaints isn't that bad. You could just ignore it... over the course of the season, they'll start to stop complaining. In general, the idea is more to try and get us to play the base game simpler... instead of these fancy schedules, HarvestGreen22's tests suggests that simple is better. I've started a new save with R. Madrid using this simplified training and I'm seeing that Dani Carvajal (one of the most injury prone players at the elite level) barely gets injured in training. The funny thing is injury prone doesn't seem to affect match injuries as much as training injuries... because in 2 seasons, Carvajal got injured about 6 times for a grand total of 16 days via training, but never got hurt in an actual match. It used to be pretty even between the two. I can't drop him because nobody wants to buy him for his price and I can't release him because I'll be paying him good money to leave when I can actually put him to use in rotations... stuck with him until his contract runs out. LOL! But the point is that simple is better. If you don't want to ignore them, you fix every week of your training schedule and then you delegate the training to your Assistant Manager. And then you take over every so often to correct them as matches gets moved around due to scheduling and stuffs, but you delegate again to AssMan when completed. The AssMan won't go and manipulate the schedule because he knows that it was done with purpose and your squad(s) won't complain. But I'm too lazy to swap back and forth, so I stick with the complaints and just ignore them. BUT! One caveat. Once they've grown used to a certain schedule and stop complaining, when you make changes, they'll start to complain again. LOL!
There is a group of players (a pretty large group, actually) that is modding the training engine so that complicated is better. You should be able to find them pretty easily if you wanted to. I have yet to start using their training engine, but I am really considering using their match engine - as a means of removing Pace+Acceleration as being the most dominant attributes. Just food for thought.
GeorgeFloydOverdosed said: I observed in the spreadsheets that set pieces decline -1.00 even when you have CA growth up to 15 with the blue 'general' training sessions. By contrast there is 0 decline when you use many of the other session types.
So I came up with some theories.
The first was that perhaps instead of set pieces & technicals in general being squeezed out by low CA, it was instead the 'general' sessions being usually 80-100% priority while the other sessions are 20-60% priority - perhaps the the remaining 40-80% was directed to a hidden pool of attribute growth, just like how 'rest' increases physicals by default. This hidden attribute growth would be significantly more overall growth, which makes sense, as in games focusing on specific attributes often carries an efficiency cost as a game balance.
Perhaps 'priority' can be stacked up to 100%, but anything more simply changes the proportions of that 100%, and each extra session is an extra session of hidden attribute growth. So for instance, 'attacking' (80%) + 'overall' (100%) = 2 x hidden growth and 100% directed growth, whereas 'goalkeeping' (20%) + 'penalties' (20%) + 'outfield' (60%) = 3 x hidden growth and 100% directed growth. This would make sense from what we know SI does, where they use misdirection to keep the true mechanics unknown - in this case, the best training regime would be what appears the least likely and simplistic.
But I did some rough tests, and can rule all of the above out. HarvestGreen22's Quick + Attack + Rest + Quick focus produced significantly better results with less injuries.
I thought I'd share some screenshots, as this shows what you can expect in reality as opposed to a perfect environment averaged 1000 times - one season, England Div 3, 3-4 star coaches, a generous amount of good but not amazing youngsters actually training at the club, just let the chips fall where they may in terms match experience, injuries and so forth (but I'm still selecting amongst the 'survivors' to show here).
Walters_quickattack = Quick + Attack + Rest + Quick focus. 40 injuries. Walters_mixed = My dense but optimized regime based on theories above. 80 injuries. Walters_extreme = Complete overload on physicals training + 2 x match practice & 'overall' to boost technicals/mentals. 207 injuries.
So in typical play is the HarvestGreen22 training significantly better? Yes, it gives 1-2 extra Pace/Acc in 1 season, halves the injury rate, and might even have an edge in mentals over a more 'balanced' regime Expand
What was the difference in his different Long Throws? Was that just a random attribute gain from load-up because Brian Walters' Long Throws has a "0" in the pre-editor? I am very interested in finding out how to best grow these set piece attributes on my own, reliably. You make a very good point. SI likes to tease us on how their system works, but it isn't a direct translation of how it actually works. If you do further testing for set pieces, please do help fill the rest of us in.
I started a new R. Madrid run. Currently in season 2. I'm going to implement Resistance this season instead of Quickness. And I'm going to add a bunch of takers into my set pieces and penalty... as much as possible to see if it affects my attribute growths for set piece and penalty "takers".
I can also confirm that, Quickness+Attack+Match Practice+7xRecovery is very effective and efficient (Carvajal didn't get injured very often due to training and he's almost-always injured due to training!). My younger guys like Arda and Camavinga grew a ton. Not so much Tchouameni and Bellingham. But that's probably due to the fact they had less room for growth anyway; Bellingham is already one of the highest rated players regarding CA in the game. And the fact I moved him to right wing to allow myself to make use of all the central midfielders that R. Madrid has probably took a huge drain on his CA, unfortunately.
I read through the spreadsheet and found that resistance training, by itself, did more for the overall physical attributes than quickness. But that’s only true for spread 7. I’ve yet to review 10, but I’m assuming that it stands, mostly, true?
And I wonder… if it stands true, does it make the most sense to use resistance training as opposed to quickness training? I also noticed that Match Review doesn’t have any noticeable negative effects, so it’s worth noting that adding it into your schedule to up cohesion in the beginning of a season to help give your team a slight edge going into each match due to team cohesion. Match Tactics gives too much growth to Decisions, so I have to say it’s probably only good to open each half season (July and January) as you bring in new players. But only to help them catch up to your tactics.
I also see that Penalties and Set Routines shows a net negative. I recommend that more testing be done to a squad where you help manage set pieces more… ala adding more takers and more outfielders to head in the corners and what not. I suspect the net negative effect comes from the lack of takers being named. But from the onset of the default data as provided by the original poster, it suggests that set piece attributes are best raised by “Wonderkids” when they’re still considered “Wonderkids”. Which means your best bet is to specialize set piece takers young and only use them for the parts you need from him.
Listen. What are the chances we stop changing the attributes for the entire team and then just on one position at a time and then run sims for each attribute change until we have a large enough pool to average out the difference? And then we do per position change ratings? Because here’s my thinking about some of these attributes that are “for show”. Decisions, Off the Ball, Vision and the like… that maybe they have less impact on the result, but more impact on how well a player performs per the game’s ratings engine. I’ve had a few test runs of Decisions in my recent RMadrid save. I run Bellingham as a CM-A. I then change his Decisions up and down. What ends up happening is when his Decisions is low, I’ll likely still win (because I’m RMadrid and I have a solid tactic (personal tactic that actually appears like the World Cup winner’s tactic but with a CM-A instead of an AM-A. Pretty much the same… and my FBs are support). But anyway. Solid tactic. Anywho… I’d usually win anyway… but Bellingham’s ratings average out to be poor/good per his Decisions attribute. Even when I win, he might still have a lower rating because he made poor “decisions”.
It looks like the match engine understands my team’s superior and my tactic is superior (tested with Elche and got top 10 two seasons in a row). But Bellingham may, or may not, be good in those matches. And I often see highlights where Bellingham loses the ball randomly that leads to an opponent highlight counter. They may not score, but they get close enough because of him. And then when his decisions is 20, even when I lose, he did well. So… again. Looking like cosmetics to the actual engine, but appears to help the player’s contribution and pads their stats. But if everyone has the same Decisions attribute, the engine is going to think they’re all making the same good decisions so we can’t weigh it on a per player basis if you get what I mean?
Then again… it’s Bellingham. Just with 1 or 20 for Decisions. Even if he made bad choices, dude would still kill it in midfield. Lol! But food for thought.
Also. Per EBFM's findings, [Endurance] additional focus increased more Pace than [Quickness] additional focus for 15 years old pure strikers and pure attacking midfield wingers.
In his findings for [Quickness], Acceleration and Pace went up for pure strikers by 0 and 0.2, respectively. And -0.1 and 0.4 for [Endurance]. As opposed to the average per position control group. Conversely, when his control and test groups were aged to 24, [Quickness] additional training had more effect to increase Pace and Acceleration as opposed to [Endurance] additional training.
EBFM's testing was exactly what the FM community needed, but he was just a one-man army catering to the masses.
What I wonder is if his tests stand mostly true for FM24, would each additional focus also have different effects per position and age? And if it does have different effects on each person by their position and age, what if they have different positions?!?
He also found that [Strength] additional focus is pretty much useless as of FM23. Which might stand true for FM24 as well. So, don't use it... ever... again...
And he also found that the [Match Review] training session has a net positive effect on Pace. Which I don't understand why... but I guess if you reviewed something and found yourself to be moving too slowly, you might want to be quicker and then, by the grace of God, you end up quicker because of it. LOL!
[Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Recovery]x7+[Attacking]+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity] in main team
（Rest）no training+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity] in U18 team Expand
Can I get a correction? Per the table, you were able to create more Pace+Acceleration growth with [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Attacking]+[Recovery]x7 than the super rest training schedule? O_o
I thought that it grew the fastest when you're doing nothing at all per the original discovery? Or is this on younger folks only? Meaning that if you did super rest for younger folks, you'll get more Pace+Acceleration as well? Please advise.
Edit: How well-rounded are the players running the best schedule? [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Attacking]+[Recovery]x7? Like how defensively responsible are the defenders?
Can anyone confirm if these routines would also be successful in FM23 and if it's possible to get them in the FM23 format for download and/or if anyone can give me a description of how to build them in FM23? Please advise.
Is this in FM24? If so, would this file be importable to FM23? Lol. Please advise.
[s]Edit: would it retain functionality in FM23’s match engine?[/s]
Edit to the edit: I tried it. FM23 won't load it. LOL! Probably slight differences in formatting of the file. But since it won't load it, is there anyone who can give me the directions for the setup? Please advise.
I’m a little late to the party… but is there any schedule that will help maximize my GKs?
Like maybe use the Quickness, Match Practice x1, Attack From Back, and Shot Stopping? To help the GK(s) grow properly? LMK.
And what is the difference in Pace/Acceleration and overall CA gains between these two? 1. 1x Quickness, 1x Match Practice, and 1x Attack Shadow Play 2. 1x Quickness, 1x Match Practice, and 1x Attacking Direct
I am literally trying to understand but nothing seems to help with my understanding.
It's fine if you don't quite understand the meat of this conversation as a new player. There's a few dudes on YouTube that have done live testing of these schedules to great effect. But they like this training schedule most: [Quickness]+[Match Practice]x2+[Overall]. HarvestGreen22 prefers this most: [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[general Attack]+[Recovery]x7. In another post, he puts up spreadsheets you can open up via Google Sheets to run deeper review of what he tested. But you'll have to note that his data pool is much smaller than what Evidence Based Football Manager did (30). HarvestGreen22's tests appear to be averaged out over 3 seasons starting from certain ages.
jflavus said: Is there anyone who is willing to show me how this training system works and how to adjust it? I am quite new to the game and I am trying to understand what to do and how to implement it to the game. I haven't even started my career yet, it is funny how there is so much to learn in this game but when it is all in writing is so hard to understand.
The whole point of the complaints isn't that bad. You could just ignore it... over the course of the season, they'll start to stop complaining. In general, the idea is more to try and get us to play the base game simpler... instead of these fancy schedules, HarvestGreen22's tests suggests that simple is better. I've started a new save with R. Madrid using this simplified training and I'm seeing that Dani Carvajal (one of the most injury prone players at the elite level) barely gets injured in training. The funny thing is injury prone doesn't seem to affect match injuries as much as training injuries... because in 2 seasons, Carvajal got injured about 6 times for a grand total of 16 days via training, but never got hurt in an actual match. It used to be pretty even between the two. I can't drop him because nobody wants to buy him for his price and I can't release him because I'll be paying him good money to leave when I can actually put him to use in rotations... stuck with him until his contract runs out. LOL! But the point is that simple is better. If you don't want to ignore them, you fix every week of your training schedule and then you delegate the training to your Assistant Manager. And then you take over every so often to correct them as matches gets moved around due to scheduling and stuffs, but you delegate again to AssMan when completed. The AssMan won't go and manipulate the schedule because he knows that it was done with purpose and your squad(s) won't complain. But I'm too lazy to swap back and forth, so I stick with the complaints and just ignore them. BUT! One caveat. Once they've grown used to a certain schedule and stop complaining, when you make changes, they'll start to complain again. LOL!
There is a group of players (a pretty large group, actually) that is modding the training engine so that complicated is better. You should be able to find them pretty easily if you wanted to. I have yet to start using their training engine, but I am really considering using their match engine - as a means of removing Pace+Acceleration as being the most dominant attributes. Just food for thought.
So I came up with some theories.
The first was that perhaps instead of set pieces & technicals in general being squeezed out by low CA, it was instead the 'general' sessions being usually 80-100% priority while the other sessions are 20-60% priority - perhaps the the remaining 40-80% was directed to a hidden pool of attribute growth, just like how 'rest' increases physicals by default. This hidden attribute growth would be significantly more overall growth, which makes sense, as in games focusing on specific attributes often carries an efficiency cost as a game balance.
Perhaps 'priority' can be stacked up to 100%, but anything more simply changes the proportions of that 100%, and each extra session is an extra session of hidden attribute growth. So for instance, 'attacking' (80%) + 'overall' (100%) = 2 x hidden growth and 100% directed growth, whereas 'goalkeeping' (20%) + 'penalties' (20%) + 'outfield' (60%) = 3 x hidden growth and 100% directed growth. This would make sense from what we know SI does, where they use misdirection to keep the true mechanics unknown - in this case, the best training regime would be what appears the least likely and simplistic.
But I did some rough tests, and can rule all of the above out. HarvestGreen22's Quick + Attack + Rest + Quick focus produced significantly better results with less injuries.
I thought I'd share some screenshots, as this shows what you can expect in reality as opposed to a perfect environment averaged 1000 times - one season, England Div 3, 3-4 star coaches, a generous amount of good but not amazing youngsters actually training at the club, just let the chips fall where they may in terms match experience, injuries and so forth (but I'm still selecting amongst the 'survivors' to show here).
Walters_quickattack = Quick + Attack + Rest + Quick focus. 40 injuries.
Walters_mixed = My dense but optimized regime based on theories above. 80 injuries.
Walters_extreme = Complete overload on physicals training + 2 x match practice & 'overall' to boost technicals/mentals. 207 injuries.
So in typical play is the HarvestGreen22 training significantly better? Yes, it gives 1-2 extra Pace/Acc in 1 season, halves the injury rate, and might even have an edge in mentals over a more 'balanced' regime
What was the difference in his different Long Throws? Was that just a random attribute gain from load-up because Brian Walters' Long Throws has a "0" in the pre-editor? I am very interested in finding out how to best grow these set piece attributes on my own, reliably. You make a very good point. SI likes to tease us on how their system works, but it isn't a direct translation of how it actually works. If you do further testing for set pieces, please do help fill the rest of us in.
I started a new R. Madrid run. Currently in season 2. I'm going to implement Resistance this season instead of Quickness. And I'm going to add a bunch of takers into my set pieces and penalty... as much as possible to see if it affects my attribute growths for set piece and penalty "takers".
I can also confirm that, Quickness+Attack+Match Practice+7xRecovery is very effective and efficient (Carvajal didn't get injured very often due to training and he's almost-always injured due to training!). My younger guys like Arda and Camavinga grew a ton. Not so much Tchouameni and Bellingham. But that's probably due to the fact they had less room for growth anyway; Bellingham is already one of the highest rated players regarding CA in the game. And the fact I moved him to right wing to allow myself to make use of all the central midfielders that R. Madrid has probably took a huge drain on his CA, unfortunately.
And I wonder… if it stands true, does it make the most sense to use resistance training as opposed to quickness training? I also noticed that Match Review doesn’t have any noticeable negative effects, so it’s worth noting that adding it into your schedule to up cohesion in the beginning of a season to help give your team a slight edge going into each match due to team cohesion. Match Tactics gives too much growth to Decisions, so I have to say it’s probably only good to open each half season (July and January) as you bring in new players. But only to help them catch up to your tactics.
I also see that Penalties and Set Routines shows a net negative. I recommend that more testing be done to a squad where you help manage set pieces more… ala adding more takers and more outfielders to head in the corners and what not. I suspect the net negative effect comes from the lack of takers being named. But from the onset of the default data as provided by the original poster, it suggests that set piece attributes are best raised by “Wonderkids” when they’re still considered “Wonderkids”. Which means your best bet is to specialize set piece takers young and only use them for the parts you need from him.
It looks like the match engine understands my team’s superior and my tactic is superior (tested with Elche and got top 10 two seasons in a row). But Bellingham may, or may not, be good in those matches. And I often see highlights where Bellingham loses the ball randomly that leads to an opponent highlight counter. They may not score, but they get close enough because of him. And then when his decisions is 20, even when I lose, he did well. So… again. Looking like cosmetics to the actual engine, but appears to help the player’s contribution and pads their stats. But if everyone has the same Decisions attribute, the engine is going to think they’re all making the same good decisions so we can’t weigh it on a per player basis if you get what I mean?
Then again… it’s Bellingham. Just with 1 or 20 for Decisions. Even if he made bad choices, dude would still kill it in midfield. Lol! But food for thought.
In his findings for [Quickness], Acceleration and Pace went up for pure strikers by 0 and 0.2, respectively. And -0.1 and 0.4 for [Endurance]. As opposed to the average per position control group. Conversely, when his control and test groups were aged to 24, [Quickness] additional training had more effect to increase Pace and Acceleration as opposed to [Endurance] additional training.
EBFM's testing was exactly what the FM community needed, but he was just a one-man army catering to the masses.
What I wonder is if his tests stand mostly true for FM24, would each additional focus also have different effects per position and age? And if it does have different effects on each person by their position and age, what if they have different positions?!?
He also found that [Strength] additional focus is pretty much useless as of FM23. Which might stand true for FM24 as well. So, don't use it... ever... again...
And he also found that the [Match Review] training session has a net positive effect on Pace. Which I don't understand why... but I guess if you reviewed something and found yourself to be moving too slowly, you might want to be quicker and then, by the grace of God, you end up quicker because of it. LOL!
[Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Recovery]x7+[Attacking]+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity]
in main team
（Rest）no training+[Addtional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity]
in U18 team
Can I get a correction? Per the table, you were able to create more Pace+Acceleration growth with [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Attacking]+[Recovery]x7 than the super rest training schedule? O_o
I thought that it grew the fastest when you're doing nothing at all per the original discovery? Or is this on younger folks only? Meaning that if you did super rest for younger folks, you'll get more Pace+Acceleration as well? Please advise.
Edit: How well-rounded are the players running the best schedule? [Quickness]+[Match Practice]+[Attacking]+[Recovery]x7? Like how defensively responsible are the defenders?
Figures… do you know where I can get a bunch of routines to test with my squad? Since 21, I’ve been playing the game with just general tactics. Lol!
[s]Edit: would it retain functionality in FM23’s match engine?[/s]
Edit to the edit: I tried it. FM23 won't load it. LOL! Probably slight differences in formatting of the file. But since it won't load it, is there anyone who can give me the directions for the setup? Please advise.
Like maybe use the Quickness, Match Practice x1, Attack From Back, and Shot Stopping? To help the GK(s) grow properly? LMK.
And what is the difference in Pace/Acceleration and overall CA gains between these two?
1. 1x Quickness, 1x Match Practice, and 1x Attack Shadow Play
2. 1x Quickness, 1x Match Practice, and 1x Attacking Direct