So what I'm taking from this is that the coaching assignments seem to have no effect at all. In fact I have no idea if coaching even has an effect on player growth. Why do we even have coaches?
I just thought of this what if you setup up your coaches where they are 5 stars in Quickness/Strength and Possession Technical and 1 star everywhere else, can you handicap the growth in the bad attributes? @harvestgreen22
@harvestgreen22 I haven't thought too much on it. But I think a simple rating where Pace+Acceleration*3 and Jumping+Dribbling*1 because I do not want to target too many attributes.
My conclusions are that V7 is clearly the shining star of the findings so far. It has the highest 1th+2th category growth. It only has "3" trainings and it uses less CA than a lot of other trainings.
@harvestgreen22 I wonder if there could be a scoring system for the training schedules. The score can show that FM highly loves Acceleration and Pace but also likes Jumping and Dribbling. The weightings could be based on the attribute tests.
@harvestgreen22 With this data, I wonder if the training schedules data can have Dribbling and Balance growth added with Pace, Acceleration and Jumping Reach.
Concentration, Anticipation, Determination，Agility can be used to separate ties in the transfer market but not a focus in training?
Flashedmind said: Yes absolutely agree, which is why I would argue that it is the combination of professionalism and CA/PA margin that is key for younger players. But that is something we already knew, in addition to match time and to a lesser extent training facilities Expand
Yes but there is nuance in the data like how Professionalism early might have diminishing returns past 15. How good Training Facilities need to be. One thing I learned was the extent Reputation of Division matters.
Seems like it does say that between 20-25, minutes played and league rep matter a lot.
Does the margin of growth thing not seem very obvious? Higher gap between CA and PA = more growth.
Still can't get over the fundamental flaw in the system where concepts like CA and PA seem to be irrelevant when a few attributes are disproportionally more important than all the others combined Expand
A point I would like to make is that if it is your goal to min-max your Pace and Acceleration, I would think anything that effects amount of growth would increase the amount of Pace and Acceleration that a player gets per year. Like for example low professionalism means less Pace and Acceleration YoY and high professionalism means more. These are the other factors which can juice up the amount of whatever attribute you are looking to min-max. So this is why I believe this 2nd part to be important.
Key Term(Margin of growth/Progression): The difference between PA and CA. A larger Margin means more growth.
Using 30000 data points he came up with these conclusions by 4 age ranges and overall conclusions. Under 20 Years:
Margin of progression has a huge impact at this stage Determination needs to be at least 6, after which the impact increase is smaller Professionalism stops mattering at 15 Even 200-300 minutes of playing time can have big impact, though minutes played matter less compared to other age groups Training Facilities stop mattering past 17 League reputation is not a huge factor Injuries don't have much impact
20-25 Years:
While margin is very important, playtime and division reputation are big factors Professionalism up to 11 doesn't change growth much, but there's a big increase for each point after that Ambition has fairly small impact Injuries have relatively small impact Training facilities appear to stop mattering past 16
25-30 Years:
Development naturally slows down or halts Playing a lot and at a high level is still key Injuries start gaining relevance Fast increase in growth impact when determination is up to 10, slows after Professionalism should be at least 6, after which it has relatively small influence Training Facilities do matter all the way up to 20
Over 30 Years:
Margin has no effect on player decay, but Current Ability does (higher CA means faster decline) Professionalism is the "undisputed king" of Hidden Attributes in stopping decay Ambition only needs to be at least 7, after which it doesn't matter Training Facilities do not affect player decay at all League reputation doesn't have a big impact Injuries have a very large impact at this stage Players should play at least 3000 minutes to help stop decay
This breakdown shows how the importance of different factors shifts dramatically across a player's career, from development-focused in younger years to decay-prevention in later years.
I think watching the video and looking at the data even more conclusions could be found.
I do think the age ranges could have noise to them but I'm sure he has the tools to gauge that in the future.
I find this to be a great second part to the puzzle that @harvestgreen22 found. If I were to use an analogy of taxes to explain the difference between the two studies, the video talks about what effects the amount in taxes(growth) the government(player) takes in, while the harvestgreen22 study talks about how the taxes are distributed to the people(attributes).
@animatron The original machine learning piece that I based the ratings on also didn't have Jumping Reach for strikers. Of Course this was for Zaz's top tactic in FM 2021, so some might have to be made. Like for example wingers are inside forwards and fullbacks are the ones providing width, so did try to weight the 2 classes. But, you can change the ratings to fit your team as well.
ZaZ said: I think the mistake is to think the other seventeen attributes of the table are useless, and only three are important at all. If you pick the attributes isolated, then you are probably right. By the table, pace, acceleration, jumping reach, and dribbling, are by far the most important. However, each of those other attributes have some small influence, and when combined they seem to make quite a difference. Dribbling alone increases expected points by almost 10, while balance, concentration, and anticipation increases almost 5 expected points each. Then you have all other attributes that increase by 1 or 3, and it is important to remember that those tests are not definitive, and only considered 2.4k matches each.
What I mean is you are focusing on the three attributes that are possibly responsible for 50%-60% of the performance of players, and ignoring the other seventeen that might just form the remaining 40-50%. It would be awesome if you were creating players with 20 in pace, acceleration, jumping, and dribbling, to then complete training for their other attributes, but by the table you showed, most the players were barely 17 in each. That is nothing impressive, and you can easily achieve that by hiring some quick youngsters with 13 or 14 starting pace and acceleration, without the need to sacrifice dribbling and other skills.
Again, you can win all championships with players at 70% of maximum performance, since most players in the game might be using only 50%-60% (because of low speed). However, you can do even better with players at 80%-100% of performance. Expand
This is why I would like the spreadsheet data itself to be accessible to see what attributes are being increased so that I personally can find which training schedule/combination of training schedules achieve the goals I want for my players.
harvestgreen22 said: In my translator, this passage is translate to a meaningless sentence I don't quite understand what that means Expand
Can you train 2 groups on one team by sending Attacker group on one day vacation and having Defender group train. And on a different day Defender group vacation for one day and attacker group train.
@harvestgreen22 Not easy to test, but in theory with how little sessions it takes to redistribute, can you just use vacation days to train certain player groups on certain days. Like Monday can be Attacker day and Wednesday can be Defender Day.
I've read through the whole thing and I agree this is revolutionary. However, I have a problem with the attributes being prioritized. Pace and Acceleration are important for all positions, but I am not too sure about the importance of Jumping Reach for positions other than Centerback. This is because of this post from FM21 where some developers used machine learning in order to create attribute weights and I believe until an updated study is done is the best we have in terms of information on the best attributes.
I personally for FM24 use a derivative one of Zaz's weight of the study's weightings. These are all the weightings, up to 100, that are above 45 in my weightings. Not sure if it is the best weightings but it is what I use to evaluate players. Is there a way to fit the trainings to fit the way I want to train my players, (not prioritizing Jumping Reach)
For Throw In Defensive Third, I'm not sure it matters as it's not run in tests but with how many points Blue scores I'm sure they have very good throw in techniques. The rest are gathered from @Mark's data.
New set pieces have been created and new set piece ideas have been shown to be high performing. I have taken all the pieces and put them together similar to what I did 10 months ago. I also will be uploading the individual set piece routines for all situations below so that you can mix and match for your team.
It's been 10 months and there are different set pieces now. I am going to upload another one that includes the best performers from the current set and see if it beats my 1-24 best hits.
I reuploaded the picture to another web disk
So what I'm taking from this is that the coaching assignments seem to have no effect at all. In fact I have no idea if coaching even has an effect on player growth. Why do we even have coaches?
In this case,
V7: 43.40
A8: 43.35
P7: 43.19
In this case:
S8: 14.03 ([Quickness]+[Match Practice]x3+[Recovery]x7+[Additional Focus Quickness]+[Double Intensity])
V7 & N8: 13.94 (tie)
O7 & H8: 13.88 (tie)
@harvestgreen22 I wonder if there could be a scoring system for the training schedules. The score can show that FM highly loves Acceleration and Pace but also likes Jumping and Dribbling. The weightings could be based on the attribute tests.
Concentration, Anticipation, Determination，Agility can be used to separate ties in the transfer market but not a focus in training?
Yes but there is nuance in the data like how Professionalism early might have diminishing returns past 15. How good Training Facilities need to be. One thing I learned was the extent Reputation of Division matters.
Seems like it does say that between 20-25, minutes played and league rep matter a lot.
Does the margin of growth thing not seem very obvious? Higher gap between CA and PA = more growth.
Still can't get over the fundamental flaw in the system where concepts like CA and PA seem to be irrelevant when a few attributes are disproportionally more important than all the others combined
A point I would like to make is that if it is your goal to min-max your Pace and Acceleration, I would think anything that effects amount of growth would increase the amount of Pace and Acceleration that a player gets per year. Like for example low professionalism means less Pace and Acceleration YoY and high professionalism means more. These are the other factors which can juice up the amount of whatever attribute you are looking to min-max. So this is why I believe this 2nd part to be important.
Key Term(Margin of growth/Progression): The difference between PA and CA. A larger Margin means more growth.
Using 30000 data points he came up with these conclusions by 4 age ranges and overall conclusions.
Under 20 Years:
Margin of progression has a huge impact at this stage
Determination needs to be at least 6, after which the impact increase is smaller
Professionalism stops mattering at 15
Even 200-300 minutes of playing time can have big impact, though minutes played matter less compared to other age groups
Training Facilities stop mattering past 17
League reputation is not a huge factor
Injuries don't have much impact
20-25 Years:
While margin is very important, playtime and division reputation are big factors
Professionalism up to 11 doesn't change growth much, but there's a big increase for each point after that
Ambition has fairly small impact
Injuries have relatively small impact
Training facilities appear to stop mattering past 16
25-30 Years:
Development naturally slows down or halts
Playing a lot and at a high level is still key
Injuries start gaining relevance
Fast increase in growth impact when determination is up to 10, slows after
Professionalism should be at least 6, after which it has relatively small influence
Training Facilities do matter all the way up to 20
Over 30 Years:
Margin has no effect on player decay, but Current Ability does (higher CA means faster decline)
Professionalism is the "undisputed king" of Hidden Attributes in stopping decay
Ambition only needs to be at least 7, after which it doesn't matter
Training Facilities do not affect player decay at all
League reputation doesn't have a big impact
Injuries have a very large impact at this stage
Players should play at least 3000 minutes to help stop decay
This breakdown shows how the importance of different factors shifts dramatically across a player's career, from development-focused in younger years to decay-prevention in later years.
I think watching the video and looking at the data even more conclusions could be found.
I do think the age ranges could have noise to them but I'm sure he has the tools to gauge that in the future.
I find this to be a great second part to the puzzle that @harvestgreen22 found. If I were to use an analogy of taxes to explain the difference between the two studies, the video talks about what effects the amount in taxes(growth) the government(player) takes in, while the harvestgreen22 study talks about how the taxes are distributed to the people(attributes).
What I mean is you are focusing on the three attributes that are possibly responsible for 50%-60% of the performance of players, and ignoring the other seventeen that might just form the remaining 40-50%. It would be awesome if you were creating players with 20 in pace, acceleration, jumping, and dribbling, to then complete training for their other attributes, but by the table you showed, most the players were barely 17 in each. That is nothing impressive, and you can easily achieve that by hiring some quick youngsters with 13 or 14 starting pace and acceleration, without the need to sacrifice dribbling and other skills.
Again, you can win all championships with players at 70% of maximum performance, since most players in the game might be using only 50%-60% (because of low speed). However, you can do even better with players at 80%-100% of performance.
This is why I would like the spreadsheet data itself to be accessible to see what attributes are being increased so that I personally can find which training schedule/combination of training schedules achieve the goals I want for my players.
@harvestgreen22 With the option in the picture I could rest the Defenders and Defensive Mids and just train the Attackers
harvestgreen22 said: Seems to only able to look at pictures, Then manually record
Is it possible for you to link the spreadsheet data or is it not ready yet?
I don't quite understand what that means
Can you train 2 groups on one team by sending Attacker group on one day vacation and having Defender group train. And on a different day Defender group vacation for one day and attacker group train.
@harvestgreen22 I don't see a spreadsheet to click on, just pictures so I can't access player--development--Progress--Attributes
@harvestgreen22 Not easy to test, but in theory with how little sessions it takes to redistribute, can you just use vacation days to train certain player groups on certain days. Like Monday can be Attacker day and Wednesday can be Defender Day.
I personally for FM24 use a derivative one of Zaz's weight of the study's weightings. These are all the weightings, up to 100, that are above 45 in my weightings. Not sure if it is the best weightings but it is what I use to evaluate players. Is there a way to fit the trainings to fit the way I want to train my players, (not prioritizing Jumping Reach)
Goalkeeper:
Mental:
Concentration: 65
Decisions: 50
Physical:
Agility: 100
Acceleration: 70
Strength: 70
Goalkeeping:
Aerial Reach: 60
Handling: 50
Center Back:
Mental:
Composure: 80
Work Rate: 55
Technical:
Heading: 55
Marking: 55
Passing: 55
Physical:
Acceleration: 90
Pace: 90
Jumping Reach: 65
Agility: 60
Stamina: 50
Strength: 50
Full Back:
Mental:
Work Rate: 90
Off The Ball: 70
Decisions: 45
Technical:
Dribbling: 50
Passing: 50
Tackling: 50
Technique: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 100
Defensive Midfielder:
Mental:
Decisions: 65
Positioning: 65
Teamwork: 65
Composure: 60
Vision: 55
Work Rate: 50
Concentration: 50
Aggression: 50
Flair: 50
Technical:
Passing: 65
Technique: 50
First Touch: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 60
Winger:
Mental:
Work Rate: 75
Technical:
Dribbling: 55
Passing: 50
Finishing: 50
Technique: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Stamina: 70
Striker:
Mental:
Work Rate: 60
Aggression: 50
Decisions: 45
Technical:
Finishing: 80
Dribbling: 75
Technique: 65
First Touch: 50
Physical:
Acceleration: 100
Pace: 100
Average weights for all positions whose averages are above 20:
Acceleration: 93.3
Pace: 90.0
Stamina: 62.5
Work Rate: 55.0
Decisions: 49.2
Passing: 42.5
Technique: 41.7
Dribbling: 33.3
Agility: 33.3
Composure: 29.2
First Touch: 28.3
Finishing: 21.7
Concentration: 20.8
Aggression: 20.8
Off The Ball: 20.0
Positioning: 20.0
Strength: 20.0