What I mean is that the algorithm itself is mainly based on how the player moves, but when shooting, it adds technique 10 / shot 10 and composure 10 to the speed (20) and we get a SPEED of 13 in the engine at the moment.
I hope you understand what I'm writing. I'm using Google Translator.
@GeorgeFloydOverdosed Try this experiment. Set all physical attributes to 20, and dribbling, anticipation, and work rate to 20. With these attributes, you win everything in FM 24 and 26. In the 2017 version, you win nothing. But remember to set all other attributes to 1. Not 8, not 6, just 1.
ZaZ said: In any game where results depend on the position of autonomous agents, the speed in which they change position will always be one of the most important factors. It is only natural because moving faster allows agents to correct their inefficiency. Expand
Yes, it's quite logical for someone who plays this type of game a lot. As I mentioned above, it's quite possible that in the 2017 version, and possibly in some other version from that period (2016/2018), the algorithm significantly adds other attributes to the calculations. It's possible that it became too complicated or the calculations took too long, and they reverted to the old version. Personally, I'm convinced that the 2017 version differs in this respect from the 2008 version and the new 24-26 versions.
I inputted my player template that finished ~5th in the Premier League in FM24, into FM17, and got 14th with the 'GOODBYE 442' tactic. But that meant the good results were within reach, so I increased pace & acc from 15 to 16, and got 8th:
So it seems that most attributes not mattering is true in FM17 as it is in FM24. Perhaps not exactly the same, but not far off in any case.
I suspect the difference between 14th/8th for FM17 and 5th for FM24 is actually the quality of the tactic. And perhaps it is the case that the introduction of gegenpress, and/or just the incompetence of the new match engine team (Nic Madden who joined SI for FM16 replaced Paul Collyer as head of match engine/match ai from FM18 onwards according to ChatGPT?), permitted for more overpowered tactics.
So based on this, it seems like player attributes in FM have always been misleading BS, but perhaps at least in some earlier versions, it was adequately obscured by the constraints of the tactic, which is overall more consequential than attributes themselves (though it won't save a dud team, and the ratio seems something like 70/30), and were either more balanced before or it simply wasn't yet exploited by people like Knap fully. Personally I reckon it's both things together.
This may actually be quite useful to know, because if the underlying attribute mechanics have always been the same, and they only have some degree of control over the tactic impact, it seems to me to mean that FM26, FM27, FM28, etc. are either going to have strong exploit tactics, in which case the attribute meta works the same and we can predict that just by looking at the exploit tactic degree of success, or tactics have been flattened down, in which case the attribute meta still applies but now you need more of those lesser attributes in the meta (i.e. anticipation, composure, dribbling, etc.) in order to actually win the season. And they can't go too far down the 2nd route, because then players would complain about not being able to win anything. That's my theory anyway. Expand
Well, yes, but take a look at my tests. It's clear that setting all physical attributes to 18, plus work rate, anticipation, and dribbling to 20, landed me 19th in the table?
Speed is still important, but not as crucial as in the new Football Manager. I suspect that what we see in the engine when a player runs and scores a goal is some kind of mix of speed and other attributes. Did they simply take the easy way out in newer Football Manager games and make simpler calculations? What do I mean? The engine is designed so that a few attributes are considered, and the rest are added and divided along the way. What I mean is, if a player runs one-on-one with the goalkeeper, whether he scores a goal is a weighted average of several attributes, including speed. Such an engine is then easy to code.
Notice that when I set all physical attributes to 10 and the rest (technical and mental to 20) I finished 2nd in the Spanish league.
I also think there's a bigger difference between 10 and 20 speed in the new FM than in the old FM 2017. Interestingly, I also tested the 2008 and 2015 versions, and they behaved similarly to the 2026 version. The 2017 version showed significantly different results from the initial tests. I haven't tested other versions.
You say someone improved the match engine since the 2016 version. It's possible they significantly improved it in the 2016-2017 version, or perhaps one of them. Now, looking at a few (2D) matches from the 2017 version, it seems that the players move and think more logically. It looks much better than in the 2024 and 2026 versions. It's possible they changed something since the 2016 and 2017 versions, but with the release of the 2019 version (I'm not sure if it was from this version) they went back to the old algorithms that heavily favored speed because they figured it would be easier to program and stupid people would buy it anyway and fall for it?
Technical: ALL 1 Dribble 20 Mental: ALL 1/Decision 10/ Anticipation and Work rate 20 Physics: ALL 18
Results? I was kicked out of the club after 29 rounds La Liga: 19
What can I say? It seems that physical attributes are still very important in the 2017 version, but it's definitely more balanced than in newer versions.
As a @Rain pointed out, it is possible that this is due to gangepress for version 2019.
Is anyone on these forums able to professionally test the 2017 version for attributes?
I'm planning to start playing the 2017 version.
It seems the newer versions are a joke when it comes to attributes.
1/2 season technique/passing/crossing/first touch 1 I'm posting this in case they kick me out for bad results from alaves
It can be concluded that the attributes ranked 1 above (technique/pass/cross/first touch) are incredibly important in FM 2017. Incidentally, I've noticed that this is the version of Football Manager I've played the most. I have the most hours on Steam.
second test at this attribute La Liga: 3 Champions League- Semi final Spain cup - final Interesting Now I will do one more test where I will set the pass attribute to 1.
Suprise FM 2017 spain league 2nd place all players ATTRIBUTES: TECHNICAL 20/MENTAL 20/ PHYSICal 10 (look at screenshot) @Zippo King of tests. Maybe it's time to test the 2017 version?
Rain said: I think physical attributes becoming so good were related to Gegenpress being added in FM 19, so that may be why it's not as good in 17 and 18. Expand
There might be some truth to these claims. But I forgot to mention that I also did a test in Football Manager 2008 this morning, and when I measured these attributes, the results were similar to those in FM 24 and 26.
I'm currently finishing my first test in FM 17, where I have my technical and mental attributes at 20 and all physical attributes at 10. If the results are similar to those in FM 24 and 26, I'll probably finish at the bottom of the Spanish league table. I'll let you know soon.
After stumbling upon this thread, I basically stopped playing Football Manager. Today, something struck me and I decided to conduct a little testing, but using FM 2017. That was the version I spent the most time with. I've done a little testing, and physical attributes are still the most important. But there's a small glimmer of hope. In Football Manager 24 and 26, setting all physical attributes to 20, plus work rate, anticipation, and dribbling to 20, won everything. The remaining attributes to 1. In my first test in FM 2017, after setting these attributes, I placed 4th, 3rd, and 5th in the Spanish league, respectively.
In the next three seasons, adding all technical attributes to these attributes to 15, I placed first three times.
I think this might be interesting. Could someone test this more thoroughly in the 2017 version? It seems that in this version physical attributes are still very important but other attributes are not dead.
I'm also adding this test. While it applies to the 2018 version, it seems that the 2017 and 2018 versions may differ in their use of attributes that are dead in versions 24 and 26.
I hope you understand what I'm writing. I'm using Google Translator.
@GeorgeFloydOverdosed
Try this experiment. Set all physical attributes to 20, and dribbling, anticipation, and work rate to 20. With these attributes, you win everything in FM 24 and 26. In the 2017 version, you win nothing.
But remember to set all other attributes to 1. Not 8, not 6, just 1.
Yes, it's quite logical for someone who plays this type of game a lot. As I mentioned above, it's quite possible that in the 2017 version, and possibly in some other version from that period (2016/2018), the algorithm significantly adds other attributes to the calculations. It's possible that it became too complicated or the calculations took too long, and they reverted to the old version. Personally, I'm convinced that the 2017 version differs in this respect from the 2008 version and the new 24-26 versions.
I inputted my player template that finished ~5th in the Premier League in FM24, into FM17, and got 14th with the 'GOODBYE 442' tactic. But that meant the good results were within reach, so I increased pace & acc from 15 to 16, and got 8th:
So it seems that most attributes not mattering is true in FM17 as it is in FM24. Perhaps not exactly the same, but not far off in any case.
I suspect the difference between 14th/8th for FM17 and 5th for FM24 is actually the quality of the tactic. And perhaps it is the case that the introduction of gegenpress, and/or just the incompetence of the new match engine team (Nic Madden who joined SI for FM16 replaced Paul Collyer as head of match engine/match ai from FM18 onwards according to ChatGPT?), permitted for more overpowered tactics.
So based on this, it seems like player attributes in FM have always been misleading BS, but perhaps at least in some earlier versions, it was adequately obscured by the constraints of the tactic, which is overall more consequential than attributes themselves (though it won't save a dud team, and the ratio seems something like 70/30), and were either more balanced before or it simply wasn't yet exploited by people like Knap fully. Personally I reckon it's both things together.
This may actually be quite useful to know, because if the underlying attribute mechanics have always been the same, and they only have some degree of control over the tactic impact, it seems to me to mean that FM26, FM27, FM28, etc. are either going to have strong exploit tactics, in which case the attribute meta works the same and we can predict that just by looking at the exploit tactic degree of success, or tactics have been flattened down, in which case the attribute meta still applies but now you need more of those lesser attributes in the meta (i.e. anticipation, composure, dribbling, etc.) in order to actually win the season. And they can't go too far down the 2nd route, because then players would complain about not being able to win anything. That's my theory anyway.
Well, yes, but take a look at my tests. It's clear that setting all physical attributes to 18, plus work rate, anticipation, and dribbling to 20, landed me 19th in the table?
Speed is still important, but not as crucial as in the new Football Manager. I suspect that what we see in the engine when a player runs and scores a goal is some kind of mix of speed and other attributes. Did they simply take the easy way out in newer Football Manager games and make simpler calculations? What do I mean? The engine is designed so that a few attributes are considered, and the rest are added and divided along the way. What I mean is, if a player runs one-on-one with the goalkeeper, whether he scores a goal is a weighted average of several attributes, including speed. Such an engine is then easy to code.
Notice that when I set all physical attributes to 10 and the rest (technical and mental to 20) I finished 2nd in the Spanish league.
I also think there's a bigger difference between 10 and 20 speed in the new FM than in the old FM 2017. Interestingly, I also tested the 2008 and 2015 versions, and they behaved similarly to the 2026 version. The 2017 version showed significantly different results from the initial tests. I haven't tested other versions.
You say someone improved the match engine since the 2016 version. It's possible they significantly improved it in the 2016-2017 version, or perhaps one of them. Now, looking at a few (2D) matches from the 2017 version, it seems that the players move and think more logically. It looks much better than in the 2024 and 2026 versions. It's possible they changed something since the 2016 and 2017 versions, but with the release of the 2019 version (I'm not sure if it was from this version) they went back to the old algorithms that heavily favored speed because they figured it would be easier to program and stupid people would buy it anyway and fall for it?
The results are as follows:
La Liga: 6 but but 14th place had only 7 points less
Mental: ALL 1/Decision 10/ Anticipation and Work rate 20
Physics: ALL 18
Results? I was kicked out of the club after 29 rounds
La Liga: 19
What can I say? It seems that physical attributes are still very important in the 2017 version, but it's definitely more balanced than in newer versions.
As a @Rain pointed out, it is possible that this is due to gangepress for version 2019.
Is anyone on these forums able to professionally test the 2017 version for attributes?
I'm planning to start playing the 2017 version.
It seems the newer versions are a joke when it comes to attributes.
Finishing/shot from distance/tackling/marking 1
La Liga: 4
Physical 15
La Liga: WIN 1
technique/passing/crossing/first touch 1
I'm posting this in case they kick me out for bad results from alaves
It can be concluded that the attributes ranked 1 above (technique/pass/cross/first touch) are incredibly important in FM 2017. Incidentally, I've noticed that this is the version of Football Manager I've played the most. I have the most hours on Steam.
La Liga: 4
La Liga: 3
Champions League- Semi final
Spain cup - final
Interesting
Now I will do one more test where I will set the pass attribute to 1.
FM 2017 spain league 2nd place
all players ATTRIBUTES: TECHNICAL 20/MENTAL 20/ PHYSICal 10 (look at screenshot)
@Zippo
King of tests. Maybe it's time to test the 2017 version?
There might be some truth to these claims. But I forgot to mention that I also did a test in Football Manager 2008 this morning, and when I measured these attributes, the results were similar to those in FM 24 and 26.
I'm currently finishing my first test in FM 17, where I have my technical and mental attributes at 20 and all physical attributes at 10. If the results are similar to those in FM 24 and 26, I'll probably finish at the bottom of the Spanish league table. I'll let you know soon.
In my first test in FM 2017, after setting these attributes, I placed 4th, 3rd, and 5th in the Spanish league, respectively.
In the next three seasons, adding all technical attributes to these attributes to 15, I placed first three times.
I think this might be interesting. Could someone test this more thoroughly in the 2017 version? It seems that in this version physical attributes are still very important but other attributes are not dead.
https://strikerless.com/2017/12/16/fm18-labs-we-need-to-talk-about-decisions/
I'm also adding this test. While it applies to the 2018 version, it seems that the 2017 and 2018 versions may differ in their use of attributes that are dead in versions 24 and 26.