GeorgeFloydOverdosed said: Passing, first touch, long shots, and technique have negligible benefit or even possibly negative correlation for outfield players.
If you don't want to take my word for it, refer to HarvestGreen's data on this:
You're also not attempting a fair example. No players are going to have 20 passing, first touch, long shots, and technique. Nor is a player going to have 20 dribbling and 5 in those other stats. Expand
You are right there is no such a player with 20 and 14 dribling as i mentioned but if it existed he would be worst than i player with 20 dribbling and zero in all other atribbutes because in your rating dribbling is rated 50ish in all positions and the other technical atribbutes are zero.
And we know in the game the player with 20is and a little less dribbling would perform better.
Maybe that is not cost effective from it ca, it could be better if we could choose the atriibutes and relocate better for it ca, ok i get it.
But what i want to infer here, it's people use genie scout to find the best players to play the game in their teams now, not the better cost effective ca
GeorgeFloydOverdosed said: If you doubt it, you can edit an English Premier League's team in the editor to match these attributes and see if they come ~7th in combination with Knap tactic as I claim they do. For hiddens, convert the values here (simply divide by 4).
It requires a bit of work, but the difficult legwork is already done. It would take about 30 minutes, and then perhaps another 30 minutes to test.
I have tried to state clearly that while the attribute templates are very reliable (plug those figures in and you *will* get 7th on average and with not too much variation), weightings have the downside of being unable to distinguish between 1 acc/20 pace and 10 acc/10 pace.
You mention 'prem 1.0 ratings that show pace is more important for a GK than reflexes' and 'aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1vs1', which are examples of this inherent lack of discrimination. I have attempted a weighted weights version in attempt to try and compensate for this problem, however my comparison testing found that it did performed worse than the standard Premier League 1.0 weights under normal playing conditions (8.333 position result average vs 7.333 for standard Premier League 1.0 weights).
The comparison tests included a control of Orion's weights, which averaged 13.166 position, so my weightings are definitely worth using above any random set of values, and I daresay anyone else's weights presented so far.
You say that my weightings 'show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers'. This irks me because this is just straight up disinfo. Now maybe what you mean to say is that sometimes a 100 CA goalkeeper can supposedly perform at the highest level, but cmon man, anyone can load up my ratings with the starting database in 3 minutes and see this: Expand
mate i don't discredit your research, i think it's valid when we talk about cost effective relatively.
but people don't use the ratings for that, they use to find the best players, so when you put in your ratings ZERO for long shot, technique, first touch, etc. It will fall apart. It will not show the best players, but the more cost effective maybe.
Take a look at your picture here from GenieScout, there is a GK from KV Mechelen 112Ca better than Mamardashville 148ca..near as good as Diogo Costa and Verbruggen.
But he is not that good, am i right?
Your rating show that, well forGk with 110-120ca he is the best cost effective in the game but not the best player to play for my team now.
There is no way in hell Courtouis it's not the best Gk in the game, there is no way a Gk from Indepediente Del Valle and Burnley better than Oblak, just because the Aerial Reach and Pace (???) is a little bit better than Oblak (discredit for all other atributes).
So you misguiding people when we talk about find the best players to play for my team now.
But you help a lot, and helped me a lot when we talk about cost effective for training.
treath said: he blindly trust this prem 1.0 ratings that show pace is more importante for a GK than reflexes and his gk are a phisical monster.
the problem is people trust this ratings blindly i made tests with this rating with gsscout and it show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers just because they are tall and have enough aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1-1, etc. Expand
not mention other positions that infer a player like a winger or midfield with 20 passing 20 first touch 20 long shoot 20 technic and 14 driblling are worst than a player with 20 driblling and 5 on the rest.
keithb said: Now I'm not an expert, but could it be that if the most important attribute for keepers is 9 out of 20, this could lead to them being crap? Probably not, but just a mad idea I had.
Anyway its food for thought! Expand
he blindly trust this prem 1.0 ratings that show pace is more importante for a GK than reflexes and his gk are a phisical monster.
the problem is people trust this ratings blindly i made tests with this rating with gsscout and it show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers just because they are tall and have enough aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1-1, etc.
@ZaZ I'm using this tactic on my save (always using at least one striker even if it's not meta), but i notice that this tactic and your Autumn 4.5 have different instructions.
It's little things, like pressing etc, but do you think if i insert the autumn tactic and just move up the AMC to striker CHF and less runs it would be better ??
Zaz, correct me if i'm wrong but the only difference your tactic have with Brembov31 is the CHM don't roam in his tactic.
The rest of it all instructions are literally the same. And despite the points be higher the Xg are lower, so i guess it's more to the randomic than to the quality of instructions.
I was winning 5x1 first half with 2.04xg (bad night for the adverssary gk) and the opponent 0,23xg. Easy win i tought.
But second half i do not know what happening, in 15 minuts 3 goals for them and a post ball...5x4 and the xg now is 2.04 for me (no changes) and 2.54 for them.
I put this tactic and change out defenders and atacking payers for mid....after that...there is no highlights and the xg do not change at all, it was like the game freezing and the ball keep in the midfields all time.
Zaz, i'm playing with 1.46 version but i made these tweaks myself, i guess this version will get better results.
Besides i still sticking with low crosses, but i add take more risks OCBs, Shoot Less for wingbacks, i add too sit narrower for inside forward and i really do not know if it is a coincidence or not but after i add Hold up the ball instruction for Shadow Striker my team bang more and a lot of goals.
Shadow striker itself score more and give more assists, there is a game he made 3 assists and score 2 goals, that not happen never before this instruction. Maybe after your currents tests you should add this.
-----
In defence there is a difference in Argus for my team made sense, that is set off the step up more instruction and make balanced...at least watching the games it seems i suffer less from long balss and killing passes.
ZaZ, watching games i found the performance of my shadow striker very bad, does not participate well, score some goals but....
Did you test other roles in the AMC position like Atackind Mid or Channel Midfield?? The SS really outperformed all other roles? (i read somewhere that the channel forward is the best if you play with striker)
Lol, the new top tactic is literally, literally, this tactic without any changes (team and players - in possession and out possession) beside the box to box going up to channel mid (but with the same instructions).
SalientSalmorejo said: I understand that. But the game is not random. When you are setting sliders, instructions etc, you do that because you spot a weakness in the match engine. For example, high tempo & high press have been unreasonably strong because of how fatigue works, for a while. But in FM 24 for example, high press + low line works worse than high press + high line (as it should, since you get to press with more players, and win the ball higher).
So, I was merely wondering if there is something specific about the FM26 ME that makes this work, or if it was an impactful setting OP came across by trial and error, or if it actually has no bearing on the results. Expand
in fm24 you can not drop your entire team out of possession, so high line was a must, now you put lower line and drop or tracking down with your entire team, it will be more difficult to the opponent to change passes i guess.
If you don't want to take my word for it, refer to HarvestGreen's data on this:
You're also not attempting a fair example. No players are going to have 20 passing, first touch, long shots, and technique. Nor is a player going to have 20 dribbling and 5 in those other stats.
You are right there is no such a player with 20 and 14 dribling as i mentioned but if it existed he would be worst than i player with 20 dribbling and zero in all other atribbutes because in your rating dribbling is rated 50ish in all positions and the other technical atribbutes are zero.
And we know in the game the player with 20is and a little less dribbling would perform better.
Maybe that is not cost effective from it ca, it could be better if we could choose the atriibutes and relocate better for it ca, ok i get it.
But what i want to infer here, it's people use genie scout to find the best players to play the game in their teams now, not the better cost effective ca
It requires a bit of work, but the difficult legwork is already done. It would take about 30 minutes, and then perhaps another 30 minutes to test.
I have tried to state clearly that while the attribute templates are very reliable (plug those figures in and you *will* get 7th on average and with not too much variation), weightings have the downside of being unable to distinguish between 1 acc/20 pace and 10 acc/10 pace.
You mention 'prem 1.0 ratings that show pace is more important for a GK than reflexes' and 'aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1vs1', which are examples of this inherent lack of discrimination. I have attempted a weighted weights version in attempt to try and compensate for this problem, however my comparison testing found that it did performed worse than the standard Premier League 1.0 weights under normal playing conditions (8.333 position result average vs 7.333 for standard Premier League 1.0 weights).
The comparison tests included a control of Orion's weights, which averaged 13.166 position, so my weightings are definitely worth using above any random set of values, and I daresay anyone else's weights presented so far.
You say that my weightings 'show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers'. This irks me because this is just straight up disinfo. Now maybe what you mean to say is that sometimes a 100 CA goalkeeper can supposedly perform at the highest level, but cmon man, anyone can load up my ratings with the starting database in 3 minutes and see this:
mate i don't discredit your research, i think it's valid when we talk about cost effective relatively.
but people don't use the ratings for that, they use to find the best players, so when you put in your ratings ZERO for long shot, technique, first touch, etc. It will fall apart. It will not show the best players, but the more cost effective maybe.
Take a look at your picture here from GenieScout, there is a GK from KV Mechelen 112Ca better than Mamardashville 148ca..near as good as Diogo Costa and Verbruggen.
But he is not that good, am i right?
Your rating show that, well forGk with 110-120ca he is the best cost effective in the game but not the best player to play for my team now.
There is no way in hell Courtouis it's not the best Gk in the game, there is no way a Gk from Indepediente Del Valle and Burnley better than Oblak, just because the Aerial Reach and Pace (???) is a little bit better than Oblak (discredit for all other atributes).
So you misguiding people when we talk about find the best players to play for my team now.
But you help a lot, and helped me a lot when we talk about cost effective for training.
the problem is people trust this ratings blindly i made tests with this rating with gsscout and it show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers just because they are tall and have enough aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1-1, etc.
not mention other positions that infer a player like a winger or midfield with 20 passing 20 first touch 20 long shoot 20 technic and 14 driblling are worst than a player with 20 driblling and 5 on the rest.
Anyway its food for thought!
he blindly trust this prem 1.0 ratings that show pace is more importante for a GK than reflexes and his gk are a phisical monster.
the problem is people trust this ratings blindly i made tests with this rating with gsscout and it show goalkeepers with 100 or 110 pa better than great goalkeepers just because they are tall and have enough aerial reach and jumping reach to surpass lack of reflexes, 1-1, etc.
It's little things, like pressing etc, but do you think if i insert the autumn tactic and just move up the AMC to striker CHF and less runs it would be better ??
Or the striker change the dinamics of everything?
The rest of it all instructions are literally the same. And despite the points be higher the Xg are lower, so i guess it's more to the randomic than to the quality of instructions.
I was winning 5x1 first half with 2.04xg (bad night for the adverssary gk) and the opponent 0,23xg. Easy win i tought.
But second half i do not know what happening, in 15 minuts 3 goals for them and a post ball...5x4 and the xg now is 2.04 for me (no changes) and 2.54 for them.
I put this tactic and change out defenders and atacking payers for mid....after that...there is no highlights and the xg do not change at all, it was like the game freezing and the ball keep in the midfields all time.
i made a topic about it, is training player traits because off the time it takes prejudicial for player growth?
Do you guys know about that, i did not find anything about it.
Is it better not learn at all?
Sometimes my AssMan give me advice about traits and i agree with him often and my players start to training the traits.
But now i'm thinking the player is losing training time to learn some uselles trait and will develop less trought the season....am i right?
Is there a good trait worth it to learn?
But i will stick with it in my save, i like it watching the games.
Thanks ZaZ
Besides i still sticking with low crosses, but i add take more risks OCBs, Shoot Less for wingbacks, i add too sit narrower for inside forward and i really do not know if it is a coincidence or not but after i add Hold up the ball instruction for Shadow Striker my team bang more and a lot of goals.
Shadow striker itself score more and give more assists, there is a game he made 3 assists and score 2 goals, that not happen never before this instruction. Maybe after your currents tests you should add this.
-----
In defence there is a difference in Argus for my team made sense, that is set off the step up more instruction and make balanced...at least watching the games it seems i suffer less from long balss and killing passes.
Did you test other roles in the AMC position like Atackind Mid or Channel Midfield?? The SS really outperformed all other roles?
(i read somewhere that the channel forward is the best if you play with striker)
I know the efficacy will go down but i want to use a striker, hahaaha, but struggling with the role for it.
Try going up your box to box to MC position i guess the margin is narrow but will improve something.
good work, i'm using it in my save.
So, I was merely wondering if there is something specific about the FM26 ME that makes this work, or if it was an impactful setting OP came across by trial and error, or if it actually has no bearing on the results.
in fm24 you can not drop your entire team out of possession, so high line was a must, now you put lower line and drop or tracking down with your entire team, it will be more difficult to the opponent to change passes i guess.