XMAS_delicious

Sup guys, as u know @senna called our attention with his improvements using much lower defensive line that was ratified by our friend @Delicious showing solid results with the lower defensive line. Both tactics have counter-press activaded on their tactical instructions and alot of ppl must be thinking if the improvements on the tactical scores are related with some defensive aspect. I have this thesis that a lower defensive line must somehow being upgrading high tempo tactics due the increase in the gap between the lines what makes IA more vunerable. For that reason I want to put in test it's XMAS_twked3 with the lower defensive line. Hope this can answer some questions from all of us here.

Base Tactics:
it's XMAS_twkd3 - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3601-it-s-xmas-twkd3/
4231 Simple Positive Headache v2 - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3809-4231-simple-positive-headache-v2/

Changes made to the base tactic:
- lower defensive line

In my tests I had an very solid run with Chelsea, one the best I had so far.

Ty once again ^^

If you want a clear explanation is something like : Mentality has passive,i didn't know that, maybe is something already well know around the world but i didn't know that,i've found out through the "few test ",i've made on Arena :P.

But even tho if that the case,why "for old meta tactics" that thesis ain't working? There is a deep ocean of hidden things that i really can't say w/o testing and more testing.
I don't even think that deep line is giving something,but i might be wrong (like always)on my thoughts,i am sincerely stopped even watch the vacation test and going just by logic using Willy's test just because at the very moment i have nothing else and going for the 5th time to attempt a edit players (one by one) isn't something i have the will to do,there is something that really i am not understanding over it.

Back to the topic,so since we know now that some mentalities have(hidden passive), we know if we do apply META-rulesless "tactic's option", Fast example : Run at defence for me was giving nothing in reality on Attacking it giving to you -points and all other options, but that's is applying only if your players have new-meta pi's otherwise i can't understand how some tactics working on attack with those options on.

First of all, you have to understand a clear point : You have to start somewhere,for example everything become clear once i did the test with islam champ but just changing the mentality on positive.
It's not like i am saying flyingcraps, you guys can go through the threads and understand the hell i did put the poor arena test through.

If we know that Islam champ (attacking mentality) is giving 55 and for some reason Positive is giving 51 means something is happening,because i knew that i had 52 or 53 with other option on it(on positive) so basically just understand what kind of option can work on your shape is giving you the extra points that you are looking for.
Now i am trying to figure out how balance work on the same prospective.
I don't know nothing about that tactic you are working on,because for me is something that in order to play "in game" you need to rip-off your players and it's working here very well because the Test league really favor them.
But, instead to focus on cosmetic,just focus on :
(I repeat i didn't even test that tactic so i am just telling you what i would do if i wanted to attempt it).

Test balance : i would add on it focus play down left and right. But i don't know if you already doing it because of the ball of distribuition.(so basically you need to test one with different ball distribution and one with FPD active).
And go on positive,or you can do a simple things just remove all the extra options and go on attacking and check what is coming out.
I would even try cautions because it really test well for opq(he did destroyed many times my poor test league :P).

Counter-press is something that basically gives nothing,but stabilize your tactic(talking about numbers). That's why once i am done i am going to test all those option. You can understand it just looking at the numbers of the tactics, it's like you get +1 on "minimum" and -1 on "maximum", but what you are looking is to fight the "weakest rng number" then the stronger. @Zippo Dark Lord can you somehow translate what i am trying to say on "scientific" way, i mean that could be a good point for the community. And since my english is elementary or if someone understand what i am trying to explain here is welcome to put in a sense that everyone can understand it.


And we need to test if for real counter-press is working somehow with a lower defensive line or it's just cosmetic. Logically if i want to press on soccer i would stay the higher possible,even tho they can long-pass etc. If you are facing Salah on steroids not even putting 10 mans back gonna stop him.

But without futher test those are just my assumations.

I didnt test on XMAS_twkd3 any dif defensive lines than the higher on (I assumed that was like on the forum tactical tests, was the same thing). I thought that could be something related with mentality but both u and senna are grabbing positive results with it (so I started to wonder if this is not attached with the tempo). Every tweak I make I try to understand by playing a full match against teams like liverpool/city (away/home). Clearly the Low line invites them to our field and we get more space behind their back.

@Delicious Be sure of it, my future tests will have the focus play logic that u applying (but im using underlaps so im gonna try focus on middle first)

Delicious said: If you want a clear explanation is something like : Mentality has passive,i didn't know that, maybe is something already well know around the world but i didn't know that,i've found out through the "few test ",i've made on Arena :P.

But even tho if that the case,why "for old meta tactics" that thesis ain't working? There is a deep ocean of hidden things that i really can't say w/o testing and more testing.
I don't even think that deep line is giving something,but i might be wrong (like always)on my thoughts,i am sincerely stopped even watch the vacation test and going just by logic using Willy's test just because at the very moment i have nothing else and going for the 5th time to attempt a edit players (one by one) isn't something i have the will to do,there is something that really i am not understanding over it.

Back to the topic,so since we know now that some mentalities have(hidden passive), we know if we do apply META-rulesless "tactic's option", Fast example : Run at defence for me was giving nothing in reality on Attacking it giving to you -points and all other options, but that's is applying only if your players have new-meta pi's otherwise i can't understand how some tactics working on attack with those options on.

First of all, you have to understand a clear point : You have to start somewhere,for example everything become clear once i did the test with islam champ but just changing the mentality on positive.
It's not like i am saying flyingcraps, you guys can go through the threads and understand the hell i put the poor arena test through.

If we know that Islam champ (attacking mentality) is giving 55 and for some reason Positive is giving 51 means something is happening,because i knew that i had 52 or 53 with other option on it(on positive) so basically just understand what kind of option can work on your shape is giving you the extra points that you are looking for.
Now i am trying to figure out how balance work on the same prospective.
I don't know nothing about that tactic you are working on,because for me is something that in order to play "in game" you need to rip-off your players and it's working here very well because the Test league really favor them.
But, instead to focus on cosmetic,just focus on :
(I repeat i didn't even test that tactic so i am just telling you what i would do if i wanted to attempt it).

Test balance : i would add on it focus play down left and right. But i don't know if you already doing it because of the ball of distribuition.(so basically you need to test one with different ball distribution and one with FPD active).
And go on positive,or you can do a simple things just remove all the extra options and go on attacking and check what is coming out.
I would even try cautions because it really test well for opq(he did destroyed many times my poor test league :P).

Counter-press is something that basically gives nothing,but stabilize your tactic(talking about numbers). That's why once i am done i am going to test all those option. You can understand it just looking at the numbers of the tactics, it's like you get +1 on "minimum" and -1 on "maximum", but what you are looking is to fight the "weakest rng number" then the stronger. @Zippo Dark Lord can you somehow translate what i am trying to say on "scientific" way, i mean that could be a good point for the community. And since my english is elementary or if someone understand what i am trying to explain here is welcome to put in a sense that everyone can understand it.


And we need to test if for real counter-press is working somehow with a lower defensive line or it's just cosmetic. Logically if i want to press on soccer i would stay the higher possible,even tho they can long-pass etc. If you are facing Salah on steroids not even putting 10 mans back gonna stop him.

But without futher test those are just my assumations. Expand

Think about it
Counter-press = reaction to ball loss
not the same thing as press line (high or low)

but of course reacting to the loss of the ball together is more effective

crizeKOS said: I didnt test on XMAS_twkd3 any dif defensive lines than the higher on (I assumed that was like on the forum tactical tests, was the same thing). I thought that could be something related with mentality but both u and senna are grabbing positive results with it (so I started to wonder if this is not attached with the tempo). Every tweak I make I try to understand by playing a full match against teams like liverpool/city (away/home). Clearly the Low line invites them to our field and we get more space behind their back.

@Delicious Be sure of it, my future tests will have the focus play logic that u applying (but im using underlaps so im gonna try focus on middle first) Expand

That's already wrong,forget to even watch games and stuff like that,it's the same "mistake" that opq is doing because he won't listen to me,it's like there are 2 separate games (even 3), on "VACATION",you don't how the games are processed,i mean that's not even rocket science that something is different between gpu's games and 2D games and i won't even IMAGINE,what's happening on vacation,but it's proven that your AM might altering the tactic by doing some strange things,you can check Evidence Based Football Manager,he really explain things in easy way.

It's not like i am stopping you to play with underlaps, i am telling you add even the DLP. "if you see things going nuts on the test",try another time with a different ball distribuition. On Balance and positive you have to add options. It's on attacking that you've to remove them. I mean now that i am even following some logic brain connections,it's clear that there is something "hidden" otherwise the arena test would be all the same results (i mean the bible test on mentality). But i don't know with what tactic they processed them,but can't really be with rulesless.

senna said: Think about it
Counter-press = reaction to ball loss
not the same thing as press line (high or low)

but of course reacting to the loss of the ball together is more effective Expand

That's my point, if my defenders are already to back to New York once the ball is lost,it's creating a gap and spacing(talking about real soccer). But i really should test them. As i said i might be wrong on it

Delicious said: That's already wrong,forget to even watch games and stuff like that,it's the same "mistake" that opq is doing because he won't listen to me,it's like there are 2 separate games (even 3), on "VACATION",you don't how the games are processed,i mean that's not even rocket science that something is different between gpu's games and 2D games and i won't even IMAGINE,what's happening on vacation,but it's proven that your AM might altering the tactic by doing some strange things,you can check Evidence Based Football Manager,he really explain things in easy way.

It's not like i am stopping you to play with underlaps, i am telling you add even the DLP. "if you see things going nuts on the test",try another time with a different ball distribuition. On Balance and positive you have to add options. It's on attacking that you've to remove them. I mean now that i am even following some logic brain connections,it's clear that there is something "hidden" otherwise the arena test would be all the same results (i mean the bible test on mentality). But i don't know with what tactic they processed them,but can't really be with rulesless. Expand

There is no rock science behind it's XMas_twkd3 logic: is just a clean 442 wide diamond shape with clean PIs. The only thing that is tweaked is the keeper distribution to the flanks.
Ppl is addind alot of stuff (including me sometimes) and they dont even know what is working. That's why I love u, u r a mad scientist taking notes about every discovery u've made. Haha

senna said: Think about it
Counter-press = reaction to ball loss
not the same thing as press line (high or low)

but of course reacting to the loss of the ball together is more effective Expand

In reality an narrow shape/higher line would benefit counter pressing

@Delicious what I meant is that i saw both balanced and positive tactics benefiting from the lower line.

crizeKOS said: @Delicious what I meant is that i saw both balanced and positive tactics benefiting from the lower line. Expand

I am sure you did,but without a proper test we can't say it yet :P. Otherwise the Dark Lord is going to chase us with his light-saber :P

Delicious said: I am sure you did,but without a proper test we can't say it yet :P. Otherwise the Dark Lord is going to chase us with his light-saber :P Expand

Yes, u r right. BUt I ll assume this based on faith I've on the Lord

Delicious said: on "VACATION",you don't how the games are processed,i mean that's not even rocket science that something is different between gpu's games and 2D games and i won't even IMAGINE,what's happening on vacation Expand

There's really no difference when you play matches in 3D, 2D, Instant Result or Holiday modes, it uses the same M.E. to calculate the match.

When you watch a match in 3D or 2D mode, it's already been played, it doesn't play in real time as you might think, otherwise it wasn't possible to put comments.

You probably have noticed that when you watch a match in 3D match and make tactical changes then it takes few seconds to apply them and during that time the match is being replayed taking into account the changes you made.

For a good PC it takes only about 0.01 second to play a match and when you watch a match in 3D, it's been played already.

The above isn't my guess about how the game work, this information is from the developer who created the match engine.

You might ask where did I get it from, I can tell that information from my friends who participate in closed beta tests, they communicate directly to the game developers and what I told you isn't a secret information ( no DNA on it ).

Once more, the information above is 100% true, it received from the developer who stands behind the creation of the M.E. ( Match Engine )

Zippo said: There's really no difference when you play matches in 3D, 2D, Instant Result or Holiday modes, it uses the same M.E. to calculate the match.

When you watch a match in 3D or 2D mode, it's already been played, it doesn't play in real time as you might think, otherwise it wasn't possible to put comments.

You probably have noticed that when you watch a match in 3D match and make tactical changes then it takes few seconds to apply them and during that take the match is being replayed taking into account the changes you made.

For a good PC it takes only about 0.01 second to play a match and when you watch a match in 3D, it's been played already.

The above isn't my guess about how the game work, it's information from the developer who created the match engine.

You might ask where did I get it from, I can tell that information from my friends who participate in closed beta tests, they communicate directly to the game developers and what I told you isn't a secret information ( no DNA on it ).

Once more, the information above is 100% true, it received from the developer who stands behind creation of the M.E. ( Match Engine ) Expand

I do believe it,but since you are "passing" the wheel to the IA,idk if is happening on FM23 as well but on previous one it would literally change your players,swapping them etc if that is happening it's already altering the whole thing we call "Vacation test".
I don't know but i find the vacation test uniliterally useless. The whole thing i did tried to explain and that some roles are working in different way from "processed" and "3D", that something i've read in tons of different places,it might be false but so i don't understand why some roles are tested trough for example : Arena/vacation are giving different results if you play them in 3D.
It was something like the GPUI can't process some movements, but we are really going in deepth on something i've just read about it.

Delicious said: I don't know but i find the vacation test uniliterally useless. The whole thing i did tried to explain and that some roles are working in different way from "processed" and "3D", that something i've read in tons of different places Expand

Unfortunately, the developers don't do good when it comes to communication with their fan base, obviously, there is lack of communication on their side and that creates a lot of myths about FM, and 99% of those myths is complete bullshit.

I suggest only trusting to official sources, or sources that confirms their information is from official sources.


Delicious said: i don't understand why some roles are test trough for example : Arena/vacation are giving different results if you play them in 3D. Expand
You can compare the data that you get playing matches in 3D with the data that you get playing matches on 'Holiday' only if there's an equal amount of matches played.

I'd say the minimal amount of matches that can be taken into consideration is about 600 matches, I can't believe that someone can play 600 matches in 3D to test a tactic.

worst thing this year is that all "Test" are big lottery. u can test the same tactic 20 times and it could have completely results. i tested my 4231 GOATed tactic 15 times and 3 times was unbeaten whole season, 10 times won the league and 2 times i was fighting for 4th place in the league. team and player stats was so diffrence that u can't find "best" tactic for u team.

DawidFM said: worst thing this year is that all "Test" are big lottery. u can test the same tactic 20 times and it could have completely results. i tested my 4231 GOATed tactic 15 times and 3 times was unbeaten whole season, 10 times won the league and 2 times i was fighting for 4th place in the league. team and player stats was so diffrence that u can't find "best" tactic for u team. Expand

It's not only this year, it's been like that all the time.

FM is a game based on RNG to simulate the real life football.

Just look at the Liverpool in the real life, one season it wins the domestic league and CL but the next season it barely gets a CL spot.

If you want a more consistent result in FM then buy better players. In theory it's possible to make an invincible team.

https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/

Zippo said: It's not only this year, it's been like that all the time.

FM is a game based on RNG to simulate the real life football.

Just look at the Liverpool in the real life, one season it wins the domestic league and CL but the next season it barely gets a CL spot.

If you want a more consistent result in FM then buy better players. In theory it's possible to make an invincible team.

https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/ Expand

Last year u only had 2/3 tactics that was working amazing in this game. this year there is no "OP" tactic.
i tested 433/4231/442 and 352(from table on this site) and they are very inconsistent. i have my 4231 on WHU save and i'm 1st in the league without any loses (march) but on other save i'm fighting in mid table.

DawidFM said: Last year u only had 2/3 tactics that was working amazing in this game. this year there is no "OP" tactic.
i tested 433/4231/442 and 352(from table on this site) and they are very inconsistent. i have my 4231 on WHU save and i'm 1st in the league without any loses (march) but on other save i'm fighting in mid table. Expand

https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17450/

DawidFM said: Last year u only had 2/3 tactics that was working amazing in this game. this year there is no "OP" tactic.
i tested 433/4231/442 and 352(from table on this site) and they are very inconsistent. i have my 4231 on WHU save and i'm 1st in the league without any loses (march) but on other save i'm fighting in mid table. Expand

OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.

This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.

So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.

If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate the game with Branford or Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.

It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game.

Zippo said: OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.

This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.

So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.

If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate game with Branford and Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.

It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game. Expand

I haven't seen a tactic with good results using AML/R that run wide with the ball (like W-Su or W-At). I think they are weak in this version, just like IF was weak in FM22 before the patch that fixed their behavior.

ZaZ said: I haven't seen a tactic with good results using AML/R that run wide with the ball (like W-Su or W-At). I think they are weak in this version, just like IF was weak in FM22 before the patch that fixed their behavior. Expand

Just try using your Fire 2.0 with PSG and then report your result https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3639-zaz-fire-2-0/

I'm sure you'll win the league easily.

Wouldn't it be a good result? So what's the problem?

crizeKOS said: https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17450/ Expand

thanks bro i will follow this topic

Zippo said: Just try using your Fire 2.0 with PSG and then report your result https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3639-zaz-fire-2-0/

I'm sure you'll win the league easily.

Wouldn't it be a good result? So what's the problem? Expand

I think that a good result would be win everything with a team like PSG...

Also a good result would be picking up Angers or something like that and be league champion

Gracolas said: I think that a good result would be win everything with a team like PSG... Expand

By "win everything" you mean winning also CL? If so then he also have a great chance of winning CL, of course, it isn't 100% but the chances are high.

Just look at PSG in real life... does it has 100% chances of winning CL? Of course, it's not. Why then in the game it should be any different, of course, if we want the game to be realistic as possible.


Gracolas said: Also a good result would be picking up Angers or something like that and be league champion Expand

No, it would not be just a good result, it would be an incredible result.

Imagine, if in real life Angers won the French league, would you say it's just a good result? I don't think so. I bet you would call it a miracle.

Zippo said: OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.

This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.

So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.

If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate the game with Branford or Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.

It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game. Expand

i know that. i alaways spend a lot of time to find what is the best for my style of play. but i see that it's very hard this year to keep a lot of clean sheets

When i say good result im comparing with last FMs.. I think you agree with me that in past versions with a single tactic you could win everything, right?

Of course that good players also helps a lot, but im just saying that there is a balance between good players and good tactic.. Maybe on this version is something like 70% weight on good players and 30% tactic, however in past versions i would say its the opposite.

Dont you agree?

should be 60%(tactic)-40% (players) in my opinion but this year it looks like 80-20 because if u have top tier striker u can with everything with shit tactic but if u have bad st and perfect tactic u will not achieve anything

Gracolas said: When i say good result im comparing with last FMs.. I think you agree with me that in past versions with a single tactic you could win everything, right? Expand

The previous FM versions had many tactical exploits such as corner exploits, long throw-ins exploits, strikerless exploits and so on, which weren't supposed to be in the game.

Using those exploits can be consider as "unfair" play so if you prefer playing "unfair" then this year you can scam save/load or use in-game editors.

Zippo said: Unfortunately, the developers don't do good when it comes to communication with their fan base, obviously, there is lack of communication on their side and that creates a lot of myths about FM, and 99% of those myths is complete bullshit.

I suggest only trusting to official sources, or sources that confirms their information is from official sources.



You can compare the data that you get playing matches in 3D with the data that you get playing matches on 'Holiday' only if there's an equal amount of matches played.

I'd say the minimal amount of matches that can be taken into consideration is about 600 matches, I can't believe that someone can play 600 matches in 3D to test a tactic. Expand

It's not like i don't trust my Dark lord. I am just saying what myths saying

But i do find vacation test the ultimate bullshit still.

Spare me o great Dark Lord

Nice, so its not related with tempo as I expected.

crizeKOS said: Nice, so its not related with tempo as I expected. Expand

why none ever believe the poor italian