stefanopt said: Following this, is there any team that matches the criteria for being a really good team under these assumptions? Expand
Any top club like PSG, Man City, Liverpool and so on.. they all have extremely fast players in any line and that's what ensures their domination in the game.
Lapidus said: Any top club like PSG, Man City, Liverpool and so on.. they all have extremely fast players in any line and that's what ensures their domination in the game. Expand
What about lower level clubs with players like that?
stefanopt said: What about lower level clubs with players like that? Expand
Take any league and you'll see it follows that patter.
I mean, in any league the clubs that are predicted to finish at the top of the table tend to have faster players than the clubs that are predicted to finish at the middle or bottom of the table.
I also want to remind you that for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles Pace isn't highlighted attribute but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are highlighted attributes so the game tells us that Pace attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and can be ignored but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are one of the key attributes for the roles and should look at.
In the previous test we reduced the Pace attribute of the central midfielders from "13" to "5" and then we relocated the freed CA into Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique attributes increasing them from "14" to "17". Please note, the CA didn't change and it stayed the same 147CA and as we know reducing Pace and increasing Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique drastically decreased the result, the score dropped from "51" points to "36" points and G.D. dropped from "+3" to "-16", which is quite significant drop I'd say.
Now, let's try a bit different thing what if reduce the Decisions, which according to the game is one the most important attribute for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles, to some crazy low level like "5" and relocate the freed CA to Pace, Strength and Agility attributes, which according the game mean nothing for Mezzala.
So we're making the central midfielders to be "dumb" having only "5" Decisions when before they had "14"... obviously, this should have some tragic consequences for the result... right?
Default attributes ( 147CA )
Relocated Decision attribute ( 147CA )
Ouchh... another surprising result.
As you can see, reducing the Decisions attribute of the central midfielders to "5" from "14" didn't have any tragic consequences for the result, instead relocating Decisions into Pace, Agility and Strength actually greatly improved the result, the score has increased from 51 to 61 points and the G.D. has increased from +3 to +16.
So when you make your central midfielders to be "dumber" in exchange for speed and strength then it actually significantly improves the result even the game tells us that the opposite should happen...
As you can see Central Midfielders can play just fine even having "5" Decisions instead of "14" but if you reduced their Pace to "5" from "13" then the result drops drastically but the game tells us that Decisions is one of the key attribute almost for any Central Midfielder role but Pace can be ignored.
There can't be different opinions that the design behind the role attributes is terrible and should be redone long time ago and it's really embarrassing that we still have it.
Poacher said: There can't be different opinions that the design behind the role attributes is terrible and should be redone long time ago and it's really embarrassing that we still have it. Expand
I think SI should focus on improving the exiting features instead bringing new and useless one
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes? Expand
If in your league an average player has 10-11 for Acceleration and Pace then you need to look for players with 13-14 Acceleration and Pace to be the "king".
But if you play in EPL then there's a lot top club have players with 15-16 Acceleration and Pace so in EPL to the king you need 17-18 Acceleration and Pace players.
Also, Acceleration and Pace levels are different for every line, I mean there's almost no Central Midfielders with Acceleration and Pace higher than 13-15 so for the central midfielder line having 13-15 Acceleration and Pace is already good enough when for the wingers line 13-15 Acceleration and Pace aren't great numbers.
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes? Expand
Just use a common sense.
It works great when:
- Your Strikers are faster than the opposition Strikers - Your Wingers are faster than the opposition Wingers - Your Midfielders are faster than the opposition Midfielders - Your Defenders are faster than the opposition Defenders
But as @Lapidus said there could be a significant difference in speed between the lines because for example, in the game an average Midfielder, usually, is much slower than an average Wingers.
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes? Expand
In the lower leagues you just can't players who have that high level for Acc and Pace like "17" and you don't need to.
I play in English division 4th - Sky Bet League Two and the wingers there have about 13 for Acc and Pace and central midfielders have about 9 for Acc and Pace so if in my division you have central midfielders that are faster than 9 and wingers that are faster than 13 then you already can smash the league, so need to look for 17 Acc and Pace, epically, when it's obvious that you won't find anyone.
But the top leagues is a different story, the top clubs like Man City and PSG having incredible players like Mbappe and Haaland who have 18-20 Acc and Pace so to compete with them you need similar quality players and as you can see in this case even having 17 Acc and Pace might be not enough because they have 18-20.
- Your Strikers are faster than the opposition Strikers - Your Wingers are faster than the opposition Wingers - Your Midfielders are faster than the opposition Midfielders - Your Defenders are faster than the opposition Defenders
But as @Lapidus said there could be a significant difference in speed between the lines because for example, in the game an average Midfielder, usually, is much slower than an average Wingers. Expand
Wouldn't common sense be than your strikers are faster than his defenders, Your defenders faster than his strikers/wingers? It's not like the strikers of two teams go against each other.
They all are complete sh*t. Their score is 20-30 points worse than the best tested tactics.
I really don't understand why SI put these crap into the game. Expand
I think they would score a lot better with the set pieces used by the top tactics. It's kinda hard to directly compare the two with different set pieces. Half of the tactics are still not great tho
Blau said: I think they would score a lot better with the set pieces used by the top tactics. It's kinda hard to directly compare the two with different set pieces. Half of the tactics are still not great tho Expand
An average score of the Preset Tactics is about 20-25 points when the top rated tactics get 55 points so the difference is about 30 points.
Ok, how much the best set pieces can boots the score? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? 8 points?
Even with the best set pieces the Preset Tactics will be total crap. I don't understand why SI put them into the game.
Grumpy said: An average score of the Preset Tactics is about 20-25 points when the top rated tactics get 55 points so the difference is about 30 points.
Ok, how much the best set pieces can boots the score? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? 8 points?
Even with the best set pieces the Preset Tactic will total crap. I don't understand why SI put them into the game. Expand
Yes, you are right but if you get better players eventually you will get better results(if you don't break your pc/console/tablet in the process).
SI is doing many mistakes that we don't even understand why are even there, but about "preset" tactics is just a way to help out new comers to "understand" the game, imagine if you don't know about no-creators,nothing basically you are a ps5 player and you just wanna "play" on the meaning of the term, those preset tactics can help you at least to understand the game a little. I won't even imagine if they follow the highligheted stats... Poor newbies
Yes, those preset-tactics could've been tested before to release the game by a "test-team" to check the quality of them(but i guess they did that,no clue how) as default ones, but at the moment SI seem to like to invest resources on different direction. Or maybe they won't release too strong preset to don't cut literally the balls of creators.
Honestly if you pick a preset gegenpress and change a couple of roles, add proper corner routine you have a pretty good tactic on your hands. Much better than what most people create themselves.
Yes some styles are bad, those could be better. Some roles used are also far from optimal. And well default set piece is terrible although much more realistic in terms of numbers to real life.
I think the preset tactics are a decent starting point to use and tweak. Obviously they keep it simple and don't "exploit" the engine like the ones tested here.
Yarema said: Honestly if you pick a preset gegenpress and change a couple of roles, add proper corner routine you have a pretty good tactic on your hands. Much better than what most people create themselves.
Yes some styles are bad, those could be better. Some roles used are also far from optimal. And well default set piece is terrible although much more realistic in terms of numbers to real life.
I think the preset tactics are a decent starting point to use and tweak. Obviously they keep it simple and don't "exploit" the engine like the ones tested here. Expand
You said the problem yourself though. *IF* you happen to pick gegenpress preset with the right formation you got a semi-good tactic, but there are many other presets and not everyone is a gegenpress fan. Why are the other styles presets so goddamn awful? What's the point of them if they are that bad? They don't teach you anything about roles duties and instructions (many of which are cosmetic to begin with) they just mislead you. You are much better off coming here and looking at top tactics to see what actually "works" in the game
Those styles aren't equal IRL either. I have absolutely no issue with route one scoring badly for example. It's actually not a problem of the preset tactic, rather that the whole concept doesn't work well in the engine.
To me point of the game is to experiment a bit what works. Not sure when people became so afraid of it. Nowadays everyone wants optimal build and guide from the first minute they start the game, any game. You can enter FM with certain preferences, maybe you like 433, maybe 5221... try stuff out, see what works yourself - for example that gegenpress just plain performs better than anything else, that faster players generally perform better and so on. Once you actually know exactly what works best the game is fairly simple and you need additional challenges on top to make it challenging.
Yarema said: Those styles aren't equal IRL either. I have absolutely no issue with route one scoring badly for example. It's actually not a problem of the preset tactic, rather that the whole concept doesn't work well in the engine.
To me point of the game is to experiment a bit what works. Not sure when people became so afraid of it. Nowadays everyone wants optimal build and guide from the first minute they start the game, any game. You can enter FM with certain preferences, maybe you like 433, maybe 5221... try stuff out, see what works yourself - for example that gegenpress just plain performs better than anything else, that faster players generally perform better and so on. Once you actually know exactly what works best the game is fairly simple and you need additional challenges on top to make it challenging. Expand
I think that just sounds good. Even if you spent 10 thousand hours plus on the game never would you be able to figure out that the fastest players are so OP and some attributes almost don't matter without the brute force testing of FM-Arena.
Also saying that the point of the game is to "experiment" is very much your taste, I don't know about the majority of the players, but I know many like me who enjoy it more being like a puzzle and solving tactical problems on an almost game by game basis making the most of your players attributes etc. But this is not possible without knowing exactly what the machanics do and when half the mechanics don't do anything and the only things that seem to really work are gengenpress related like high press etc.
For example in real life it can easily be argued that a "weaker" team should sit in a mid block or low block but in FM it barely works, you will actually concede much fewer goals playing a high press with 3 DMs for example like some top tactics here
You can pick up a lot watching games and stats. I don't know what you are looking at for 10000 hours because you certainly can figure out how OP speed is, I did it over 20 years ago. We can argue it's sad that in all the years it hasn't changed.
Or more specific to FM23, finishing matters a lot for strikers. When you watch them play and you see the guy with 17 finishing scores way more than the guy with 12 even though he's better in some other attributes. May or may not be true in test environment, but every time I rotate similar strikers the one with better finishing scores more so I make a note that this is an important attribute. I can't really quantify it like a rigorous test but I can evaluate quite decently.
Tactically you maybe try tiki-taka and observe that while you have posession you don't do anything with it so you tweak it a bit and when it's still not better swap style. Until you stumble upon something that works reasonably well like gegenpress or vertical tiki-taka.
Effectively it's the same puzzle you are talking about except on a bigger scale. While you assume it all works and tweak last 2 buttons and are then shocked how they don't completely transform the game.
Following this, is there any team that matches the criteria for being a really good team under these assumptions?
If you're refering to attributes wise, these are the best teams in my save (ykykyk balanced ratings).
stefanopt said: Following this, is there any team that matches the criteria for being a really good team under these assumptions?
Any top club like PSG, Man City, Liverpool and so on.. they all have extremely fast players in any line and that's what ensures their domination in the game.
Lapidus said: Any top club like PSG, Man City, Liverpool and so on.. they all have extremely fast players in any line and that's what ensures their domination in the game.
What about lower level clubs with players like that?
stefanopt said: What about lower level clubs with players like that?
Take any league and you'll see it follows that patter.
I mean, in any league the clubs that are predicted to finish at the top of the table tend to have faster players than the clubs that are predicted to finish at the middle or bottom of the table.
Here's another interesting test.
I'll remind you that in the previous test we took 2 x Mezzalas and Defensive Midfielder from this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
I also want to remind you that for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles Pace isn't highlighted attribute but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are highlighted attributes so the game tells us that Pace attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and can be ignored but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are one of the key attributes for the roles and should look at.
In the previous test we reduced the Pace attribute of the central midfielders from "13" to "5" and then we relocated the freed CA into Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique attributes increasing them from "14" to "17". Please note, the CA didn't change and it stayed the same 147CA and as we know reducing Pace and increasing Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique drastically decreased the result, the score dropped from "51" points to "36" points and G.D. dropped from "+3" to "-16", which is quite significant drop I'd say.
Now, let's try a bit different thing what if reduce the Decisions, which according to the game is one the most important attribute for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles, to some crazy low level like "5" and relocate the freed CA to Pace, Strength and Agility attributes, which according the game mean nothing for Mezzala.
So we're making the central midfielders to be "dumb" having only "5" Decisions when before they had "14"... obviously, this should have some tragic consequences for the result... right?
Default attributes ( 147CA )
Relocated Decision attribute ( 147CA )
Ouchh... another surprising result.
As you can see, reducing the Decisions attribute of the central midfielders to "5" from "14" didn't have any tragic consequences for the result, instead relocating Decisions into Pace, Agility and Strength actually greatly improved the result, the score has increased from 51 to 61 points and the G.D. has increased from +3 to +16.
So when you make your central midfielders to be "dumber" in exchange for speed and strength then it actually significantly improves the result even the game tells us that the opposite should happen...
As you can see Central Midfielders can play just fine even having "5" Decisions instead of "14" but if you reduced their Pace to "5" from "13" then the result drops drastically but the game tells us that Decisions is one of the key attribute almost for any Central Midfielder role but Pace can be ignored.
That's crazy right?
There can't be different opinions that the design behind the role attributes is terrible and should be redone long time ago and it's really embarrassing that we still have it.
Poacher said: There can't be different opinions that the design behind the role attributes is terrible and should be redone long time ago and it's really embarrassing that we still have it.
I think SI should focus on improving the exiting features instead bringing new and useless one
omg, everything I hypothesized about the game was wrong
letsgo9 said: omg, everything I hypothesized about the game was wrong
lol... the same here
Also, the start rating for the roles is rubbish. I really don't understand why it's in the game. I never pay attention to it.
So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes?
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes?
If in your league an average player has 10-11 for Acceleration and Pace then you need to look for players with 13-14 Acceleration and Pace to be the "king".
But if you play in EPL then there's a lot top club have players with 15-16 Acceleration and Pace so in EPL to the king you need 17-18 Acceleration and Pace players.
Also, Acceleration and Pace levels are different for every line, I mean there's almost no Central Midfielders with Acceleration and Pace higher than 13-15 so for the central midfielder line having 13-15 Acceleration and Pace is already good enough when for the wingers line 13-15 Acceleration and Pace aren't great numbers.
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes?
Just use a common sense.
It works great when:
- Your Strikers are faster than the opposition Strikers
- Your Wingers are faster than the opposition Wingers
- Your Midfielders are faster than the opposition Midfielders
- Your Defenders are faster than the opposition Defenders
But as @Lapidus said there could be a significant difference in speed between the lines because for example, in the game an average Midfielder, usually, is much slower than an average Wingers.
ok, thanks for help
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes?
In the lower leagues you just can't players who have that high level for Acc and Pace like "17" and you don't need to.
I play in English division 4th - Sky Bet League Two and the wingers there have about 13 for Acc and Pace and central midfielders have about 9 for Acc and Pace so if in my division you have central midfielders that are faster than 9 and wingers that are faster than 13 then you already can smash the league, so need to look for 17 Acc and Pace, epically, when it's obvious that you won't find anyone.
But the top leagues is a different story, the top clubs like Man City and PSG having incredible players like Mbappe and Haaland who have 18-20 Acc and Pace so to compete with them you need similar quality players and as you can see in this case even having 17 Acc and Pace might be not enough because they have 18-20.
Kamas1 said: So what, for example search only players with pace and acc like 17 and more? regardless of other attributes?
I filter attributes like Zippo was testing with Bournemouth:
https://fm-arena.com/thread/3293-what-it-takes-to-dominate-epl-with-bournemouth/
I set for example playing in premier league all 7 attributes to 12/13 and pace highest possible, for CD's all 7 attributes 12/13 and pace jumping reach highest possible.
Milakus said: Just use a common sense.
It works great when:
- Your Strikers are faster than the opposition Strikers
- Your Wingers are faster than the opposition Wingers
- Your Midfielders are faster than the opposition Midfielders
- Your Defenders are faster than the opposition Defenders
But as @Lapidus said there could be a significant difference in speed between the lines because for example, in the game an average Midfielder, usually, is much slower than an average Wingers.
Wouldn't common sense be than your strikers are faster than his defenders,
Your defenders faster than his strikers/wingers?
It's not like the strikers of two teams go against each other.
3rd with palace, using fastest players
Just look at the Preset Tactics that the game offers us to play with - Preset Tactics
They all are complete sh*t. Their score is 20-30 points worse than the best tested tactics.
I really don't understand why SI put these crap into the game.
Newcomers think that the preset tactics are decent at least but in reality they are total crap.
I just don't understand the intention of the game developers to send everyone in a wrong direction in every game area.
Grumpy said: Just look at the Preset Tactics that the game offers us to play with - Preset Tactics
They all are complete sh*t. Their score is 20-30 points worse than the best tested tactics.
I really don't understand why SI put these crap into the game.
I think they would score a lot better with the set pieces used by the top tactics. It's kinda hard to directly compare the two with different set pieces. Half of the tactics are still not great tho
Blau said: I think they would score a lot better with the set pieces used by the top tactics. It's kinda hard to directly compare the two with different set pieces. Half of the tactics are still not great tho
An average score of the Preset Tactics is about 20-25 points when the top rated tactics get 55 points so the difference is about 30 points.
Ok, how much the best set pieces can boots the score? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? 8 points?
Even with the best set pieces the Preset Tactics will be total crap. I don't understand why SI put them into the game.
Grumpy said: An average score of the Preset Tactics is about 20-25 points when the top rated tactics get 55 points so the difference is about 30 points.
Ok, how much the best set pieces can boots the score? 3 points? 4 points? 6 points? 8 points?
Even with the best set pieces the Preset Tactic will total crap. I don't understand why SI put them into the game.
Yes, you are right but if you get better players eventually you will get better results(if you don't break your pc/console/tablet in the process).
SI is doing many mistakes that we don't even understand why are even there, but about "preset" tactics is just a way to help out new comers to "understand" the game, imagine if you don't know about no-creators,nothing basically you are a ps5 player and you just wanna "play" on the meaning of the term, those preset tactics can help you at least to understand the game a little. I won't even imagine if they follow the highligheted stats... Poor newbies
Yes, those preset-tactics could've been tested before to release the game by a "test-team" to check the quality of them(but i guess they did that,no clue how) as default ones, but at the moment SI seem to like to invest resources on different direction.
Or maybe they won't release too strong preset to don't cut literally the balls of creators.
Delicious said: Poor newbies
the highlighted attributes .... the preset tactics ... R.I.P. newcomers ... the game devs love you
Honestly if you pick a preset gegenpress and change a couple of roles, add proper corner routine you have a pretty good tactic on your hands. Much better than what most people create themselves.
Yes some styles are bad, those could be better. Some roles used are also far from optimal. And well default set piece is terrible although much more realistic in terms of numbers to real life.
I think the preset tactics are a decent starting point to use and tweak. Obviously they keep it simple and don't "exploit" the engine like the ones tested here.
Yarema said: Honestly if you pick a preset gegenpress and change a couple of roles, add proper corner routine you have a pretty good tactic on your hands. Much better than what most people create themselves.
Yes some styles are bad, those could be better. Some roles used are also far from optimal. And well default set piece is terrible although much more realistic in terms of numbers to real life.
I think the preset tactics are a decent starting point to use and tweak. Obviously they keep it simple and don't "exploit" the engine like the ones tested here.
You said the problem yourself though. *IF* you happen to pick gegenpress preset with the right formation you got a semi-good tactic, but there are many other presets and not everyone is a gegenpress fan. Why are the other styles presets so goddamn awful? What's the point of them if they are that bad? They don't teach you anything about roles duties and instructions (many of which are cosmetic to begin with) they just mislead you. You are much better off coming here and looking at top tactics to see what actually "works" in the game
Those styles aren't equal IRL either. I have absolutely no issue with route one scoring badly for example. It's actually not a problem of the preset tactic, rather that the whole concept doesn't work well in the engine.
To me point of the game is to experiment a bit what works. Not sure when people became so afraid of it. Nowadays everyone wants optimal build and guide from the first minute they start the game, any game.
You can enter FM with certain preferences, maybe you like 433, maybe 5221... try stuff out, see what works yourself - for example that gegenpress just plain performs better than anything else, that faster players generally perform better and so on. Once you actually know exactly what works best the game is fairly simple and you need additional challenges on top to make it challenging.
Yarema said: Those styles aren't equal IRL either. I have absolutely no issue with route one scoring badly for example. It's actually not a problem of the preset tactic, rather that the whole concept doesn't work well in the engine.
To me point of the game is to experiment a bit what works. Not sure when people became so afraid of it. Nowadays everyone wants optimal build and guide from the first minute they start the game, any game.
You can enter FM with certain preferences, maybe you like 433, maybe 5221... try stuff out, see what works yourself - for example that gegenpress just plain performs better than anything else, that faster players generally perform better and so on. Once you actually know exactly what works best the game is fairly simple and you need additional challenges on top to make it challenging.
I think that just sounds good. Even if you spent 10 thousand hours plus on the game never would you be able to figure out that the fastest players are so OP and some attributes almost don't matter without the brute force testing of FM-Arena.
Also saying that the point of the game is to "experiment" is very much your taste, I don't know about the majority of the players, but I know many like me who enjoy it more being like a puzzle and solving tactical problems on an almost game by game basis making the most of your players attributes etc. But this is not possible without knowing exactly what the machanics do and when half the mechanics don't do anything and the only things that seem to really work are gengenpress related like high press etc.
For example in real life it can easily be argued that a "weaker" team should sit in a mid block or low block but in FM it barely works, you will actually concede much fewer goals playing a high press with 3 DMs for example like some top tactics here
You can pick up a lot watching games and stats. I don't know what you are looking at for 10000 hours because you certainly can figure out how OP speed is, I did it over 20 years ago. We can argue it's sad that in all the years it hasn't changed.
Or more specific to FM23, finishing matters a lot for strikers. When you watch them play and you see the guy with 17 finishing scores way more than the guy with 12 even though he's better in some other attributes. May or may not be true in test environment, but every time I rotate similar strikers the one with better finishing scores more so I make a note that this is an important attribute. I can't really quantify it like a rigorous test but I can evaluate quite decently.
Tactically you maybe try tiki-taka and observe that while you have posession you don't do anything with it so you tweak it a bit and when it's still not better swap style. Until you stumble upon something that works reasonably well like gegenpress or vertical tiki-taka.
Effectively it's the same puzzle you are talking about except on a bigger scale. While you assume it all works and tweak last 2 buttons and are then shocked how they don't completely transform the game.
https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/575222-pace-is-king-how-to-get-cl-football-with-all-players-100-115-ca/