(FM23) Risen V5 by Dzek

An updated version of this tactic.
Tactical style by @Delicious.

Changes:
Team Instructions
  - Added: Higher Tempo, Get Stuck In
  - Removed: Slightly Higher Tempo

Roles and Duties
  - CD(De)  -->  BPD(De)
  - WB(Su)  -->  IWB(Su)
  - BWM(Su)  -->  VOL(At)
  - W(Su)  -->  WM(Su)

Tweaks on all PIs.

@dzek can you do a run with Pass directness on standard?

Delicious said: @dzek can you do a run with Pass directness on standard? Expand
I already did a lot of testing myself and at FM-Arena and I came to the conclusion that "Shorter Passing" is better than "Standard" in terms of TIs.

Something I wanted to mention if someone doesn't know, if you have "Higher Tempo" and decrease/increase the passing directness lower/higher than "Standard" then the tempo also decreases/increases accordingly, but if you change the passing directness via PIs then the tempo is not affected.

dzek said: I already did a lot of testing myself and at FM-Arena and I came to the conclusion that "Shorter Passing" is better than "Standard" in terms of TIs.

Something I wanted to mention if someone doesn't know, if you have "Higher Tempo" and reduce the passing directness lower than "Standard" then the tempo is also reduced, but if you change the passing directness via PIs then the tempo is not affected. Expand

But since you've put more directness PI how does interact with pass shorter on TI?
How do you came up with that conclusion. Even that ease on PI but with Much trigger.

I am just looking for WM's PI (since is the only role that doesn't have dribble more for Possession, i am studying it for Pep 3421) but those stuff are a bit curious as well )

Delicious said: I am just looking for WM's PI (since is the only role that doesn't have dribble more for Possession, i am studying it for Pep 3421) but those stuff are a bit curious as well ) Expand

"Run At Defense" TI sets WMs dribble settings at the same level with IWs or W

Only when you remove "Run At Defense" TI then there'll be a difference in dribbling between WM and IWs/W

Delicious said: But since you've put more directness PI how does interact with pass shorter on TI?
How do you came up with that conclusion. Even that ease on PI but with Much trigger. Expand
Instructions in FM tend to be modifiers on the existing level rather than overriding - e.g. if your team is told to play short, but you have a PI telling your DM to play more direct - they're still not going to play as direct as if your team was balanced passing directness with the same PI. PIs are assumed to be e.g. 'play more direct than the rest of the team is'.

The same applies to "Trigger Press" and "Attacking Width - I'm not 100% sure for this but it could be with Stay Wider/Sit Narrower PIs".

Delicious said: I am just looking for WM's PI (since is the only role that doesn't have dribble more for Possession, i am studying it for Pep 3421) but those stuff are a bit curious as well ) Expand
I'm trying to figure it out too if "Dribble More" PI have a positively/negatively impact on wide players.

Lapidus said: "Run At Defense" TI sets WMs dribble settings at the same level with IWs or W Expand

I know, but i wanna understand why WM did that tiny better then IW. If you were refering to pep recreation i obv don't use run at defence. But since you never finish to learn something new about this wonderfull and optmized game, i am curious

About pass directness on PI for me works only if you set-in on standard, but he saying that doesn't work like that ?_?

Lapidus said: "Run At Defense" TI sets WMs dribble settings at the same level with IWs or W

Only when you remove "Run At Defense" TI then there'll be a difference in dribbling between WM and IWs/W Expand
I don't think so. "Run At Defence" impact players in advanced positions like AMC/L/R and ST. The reason behind this is because if you add TI "Run At Defence" and remove PI "Dribble More" on BPDs then you don't get the same dribbling levels so they don't dribble with ball on their feet.

Delicious said: I know, but i wanna understand why WM did that tiny better then IW. Expand

Zippo has said it many times already that even with 4,000 matches there's still 0.5 - 1 points RNG

Both tactic got 56 points so the difference falls into RNG range.

Delicious said: About pass directness on PI for me works only if you set-in on standard, but he saying that doesn't work like that ?_? Expand
I'm not sure if i understand your question but you can read this comment by SI's Match Engine developer, Jack Joyce.

dzek said: I don't think so. "Run At Defence" impact players in advanced positions like AMC/L/R and ST. Expand

You're mistaken, it also impacts other positions.

Put this tactic without "Run At Defence" TI for testing again and you'll see a difference.

dzek said: Instructions in FM tend to be modifiers on the existing level rather than overriding - e.g. if your team is told to play short, but you have a PI telling your DM to play more direct - they're still not going to play as direct as if your team was balanced passing directness with the same PI. PIs are assumed to be e.g. 'play more direct than the rest of the team is'.

The same applies to "Trigger Press" and "Attacking Width - I'm not 100% sure for this but it could be with Stay Wider/Sit Narrower PIs".


I'm trying to figure it out too if "Dribble More" PI have a positively/negatively impact on wide players. Expand

Run at defence is "dribble more+something" ; the problem is we don't really know where is applied.
I am not saying you don't have to try things all the contrary that's why i was curious about standard pass directnees with those PI.

Lapidus said: You're mistaken, it also impacts other positions.

Put this tactic without "Run At Defence" TI for testing again and you'll see a difference. Expand
I didn't say it will not have any difference and I already tried it and with "Run At Defence" enabled was more effective. I said that it impacts more advanced positions players.

Without "Run At Defence" - https://fm-arena.com/thread/6004-41212-re-cookie-vi-tweak-v3-1/
With "Run At Defence" - https://fm-arena.com/thread/6005-41212-re-cookie-vi-tweak-v3-2/

Lapidus said: You're mistaken, it also impacts other positions.

Put this tactic without "Run At Defence" TI for testing again and you'll see a difference. Expand

I am sure it doesn't impact defenders (DCL/R) and DL/DR otherwise we wouldn't put dribble more there .

Tested more then idk i guess 400k games are enough? or do we need more?

dzek said: I'm not sure if i understand your question but you can read

this comment by SI's Match Engine developer, Jack Joyce. Expand

Gonna read it, is quite interesting for anything is outside of gegenpress stuff.

From the guy on SI:

Instructions in FM tend to be modifiers on the existing level rather than overriding - e.g. if your team is told to play short, but you have a PI telling your DM to play more direct - they're still not going to play as direct as if your team was balanced passing directness with the same PI. PIs are assumed to be e.g. 'play more direct than the rest of the team is'.

The same applies to more or less any kind of instruction in the game, but I can't go into exact detail because we tweak/improve a lot of this every year and I don't want to give you any info that is then invalid in the future.

But generally, a team told to play short and carefully will behave differently when told to work ball into box compared to a team that was told to play direct and quickly.

From me:

I am more confused then before )).

So since you've putted all pass more directness to almost all roles as PI how does it affect it ?_?
And what's your porpuse to doing that. (It's just curiosity)

dzek said: I'm not sure if i understand your question but you can read this comment by SI's Match Engine developer, Jack Joyce. Expand

@Delicious

He didn't say anything new.

He repeated what has been known.

Some TI work as "modifiers" and some TI work as "overriding"

When it comes Passing, it's modifying and when it comes Dribbling it's overriding

Delicious said: I am more confused then before )). Expand
Bro is very clear

Imagine "Shorter Passing" is the number 7 and "Standard Passing" is the number 10 in a scale of 1-20.

Let's say you set your team to play on shorter passing..
and you set your DMs to play more direct passing on PIs..

Then your DMs will play more direct THAN the rest of your team which means their passing will increase somewhere between 7-10 on the scale. Maybe 8 or 9.

Delicious said: So since you've putted all pass more directness to almost all roles as PI how does it affect it ?_?
And what's your porpuse to doing that. (It's just curiosity) Expand
Now, with shorter passing, players TEND to keep possession and patiently pass the ball horizontally until they find a gap to exploit. With a higher tempo you increase your players' need to move the ball forward and shorten the pass for the sake of it, but they continue to do so because of the shorter passing TI. As "Pass Into Space" works wonders in this match engine then I thought increasing the passing directness in PIs would help "Pass Into Space" more and I saw this from my testing that my players especially AF scoring 15-20+ more goals than before.

Lapidus said: @Delicious

He didn't say anything new.

He repeated what has been known.

Some TI work as "modifiers" and some TI work as "overriding"

When it comes Passing, it's modifying and when it comes Dribbling it's overriding Expand

Yo, then explain me how this interact with much directer passing as PI from the tactic dzek posted and pass it shorter TI and pass into space.


If you know a place where i can get those info,link them. To me that's mean nothing at all, are we gonna play more direct or more shorter or super pass into space? To me tons of those stuff that are inside the game makes 0 sense at all.

Like why did you put take more risk/ much more directness if they basically doing the same thing ?_?
Idk if you guys ever watched those stuff on the Full comprensive game.

dzek said: Bro is very clear

Imagine "Shorter Passing" is the number 7 and "Standard Passing" is the number 10 in a scale of 1-20.

Let's say you set your team to play on shorter passing..
and you set your DMs to play more direct passing on PIs..

Then your DMs will play more direct THAN the rest of your team which means their passing will increase somewhere between 7-10 on the scale. Maybe 8 or 9.


Now, with shorter passing, players TEND to keep possession and patiently pass the ball horizontally until they find a gap to exploit. With a higher tempo you increase your players' need to move the ball forward and shorten the pass for the sake of it, but they continue to do so because of the shorter passing TI. As "Pass Into Space" works wonders in this match engine then I thought increasing the passing directness in PIs would help "Pass Into Space" more and I saw this from my testing that my players especially AF scoring 15-20+ more goals than before. Expand

Your way sound clear. But pass into space isn't basically : Play more direct and take more risk ?

To me doesn't work like that,but really to me all those stuff are piled in a senseless way.
Why they didn't put something like before where you could choose your modifiers?

I mean IAs works that way, i don't understand why i should go "maybe it is that "

Delicious said: Your way sound clear. But pass into space isn't basically : Play more direct and take more risk ?

To me doesn't work like that,but really to me all those stuff are piled in a senseless way.
Why they didn't put something like before where you could choose your modifiers?

I mean IAs works that way, i don't understand why i should go "maybe it is that " Expand
"Pass Into Space" and "Take More Risks" are not the same.

Pass Into Space - you tell your players to pass into space and NOT in their feet. This doesn't mean it's through ball but it could be.

Take More Risks - you tell your players to play riskier passes ANYWHERE on the pitch and to try through balls in more advanced areas of the pitch. This does not increase the number of passes at all but they tend to prefer the riskier ones. I also think it slightly increases dribbling.

dzek said: "Pass Into Space" and "Take More Risks" are not the same.

Pass Into Space - you tell your players to pass into space and NOT in their feet. This doesn't mean it's through ball but it could be.

Take More Risks - you tell your players to play riskier passes ANYWHERE on the pitch and to try through balls in more advanced areas of the pitch. This does not increase the number of passes at all but they tend to prefer the riskier ones. I also think it slightly increases dribbling. Expand

That's what pass into space mean, i mean literally it means that... You can try to add PI take more risk and Pass into space, you will notice 0 changes! We already talked about that in the past and i've even tested here all those stuff.

You will understand those stuff, if you build a tactic and start to play a bit on comprensive.
The only thing i didn't yet checked is play out of defence (that to me yet doing nothing)

I am mean you saw with your eyes, that now your players with that setup are playing in a different way then before? talking about much directness PI with Shorter passing TI. Will check it in a bit, because if it does is quite nice.

Delicious said: That's what pass into space mean, i mean literally it means that... You can try to add PI take more risk and Pass into space, you will notice 0 changes! Expand
I think there is a difference because as I said “Take More Risks” instruct players to play low percentage passes AND through balls.

To be more clear of the difference if you add “Take More Risks” to your GK, he will not try through balls but he will try low percentage passes to start a counter attack if his role is SK. I don't know about GK role but it maybe does the same.

Delicious said: I am mean you saw with your eyes, that now your players with that setup are playing in a different way then before? talking about much directness PI with Shorter passing TI. Will check it in a bit, because if it does is quite nice. Expand
I just saw the number of goals to increased to be honest.

dzek said: I think there is a difference because as I said “Take More Risks” instruct players to play low percentage passes AND through balls.

To be more clear of the difference if you add “Take More Risks” to your GK, he will not try through balls but he will try low percentage passes to start a counter attack if his role is SK. I don't know about GK role but it maybe does the same.


I just saw the number of goals to increased to be honest. Expand

Idk,check those options with comprensive highlights, you will understand it better.

Goals doesn't mean anything unfortunaly . If the gameplay was totaly different like you do believe ,imho we would'have totaly different numbers from the 442 i did posted.

This is my opinion and i won't force into none, but imho the only thing that matter in here, is the WM and i hope it is because i am using it for the pep recreation :P (since is the only role, that allow me to put dribble less)

Delicious said: Idk,check those options with comprensive highlights, you will understand it better.

Goals doesn't mean anything unfortunaly . If the gameplay was totaly different like you do believe ,imho we would'have totaly different numbers from the 442 i did posted.

This is my opinion and i won't force into none, but imho the only thing that matter in here, is the WM and i hope it is because i am using it for the pep recreation :P (since is the only role, that allow me to put dribble less) Expand
We will see and we will learn

Nice descriptions by the way

Delicious said: Nice descriptions by the way Expand

We've got roles and highlighted attributes but it's been proved that it's bullshit - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5351-should-you-follow-the-highlighted-attributes-of-the-roles/

So reading descriptions in FM to understand how things work is just waste of time.

The only way to find out is asking FM developers on the official SI forum or testing it by yourself.

I'm more that sure that "Pass Into Space" TI and "Take More Risk" PI do 99% the same thing.

It's obvious to me that "Pass Into Space" TI adds "Take More Risk" PI to all eligible positions and it could be it also add "Get Further Forward" PI ( but for the second I'm not sure )

Lapidus said: I'm more that sure that "Pass Into Space" TI and "Take More Risk" PI do 99% the same thing.

It's obvious to me that "Pass Into Space" TI adds "Take More Risk" PI to all eligible positions and it could be it also add "Get Further Forward" PI ( but for the second I'm not sure ) Expand
It may be as you say.

Lapidus said: We've got roles and highlighted attributes but it's been proved that it's bullshit - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5351-should-you-follow-the-highlighted-attributes-of-the-roles/

So reading descriptions in FM to understand how things work is just waste of time.

The only way to find out is asking FM developers on the official SI forum or testing it by yourself.

I'm more that sure that "Pass Into Space" TI and "Take More Risk" PI do 99% the same thing.

It's obvious to me that "Pass Into Space" TI adds "Take More Risk" PI to all eligible positions and it could be it also add "Get Further Forward" PI ( but for the second I'm not sure ) Expand

That interisting never though about Get Further forward tbh. For me is take more risk is pass more direct. Or maybe is to "maximize" that modifier that you were talking about?

I did test all of those stuff, but since i went to build possession tactics, stuff are even more strange.
If i do put dribble less as TI it will overdrive the passive PI (dribble more) of IW as well?
That's why i was affascineted about those WMs results.

I hope for that FM25 they just gonna build everything from 0 because like that is quite stupid

Delicious said: That interisting never though about Get Further forward tbh. For me is take more risk is pass more direct. Or maybe is to "maximize" that modifier that you were talking about? Expand

I remember someone from the game devs explained it on the SI forum.

With "Take More Risk" PI you encourage your players pass into space, there'll be a lot trough balls passes in space

With "Take Less Risk" you encourage your players pass into feet, there'll be a few trough balls passes in space.

"Short Passes" or "Direct Passes" determines at what distance you encourage your player to make passes.

With "Short Passes" they'll be look for nearby teammates by still even with short distance there's an option how to pass: into feet or into space.

So "Short Passes" + "Take More Risk" you tell your players that they must pass only to nearby teammates and prefer passing into space not into feet.

Lapidus said: I remember someone from the game devs explained it on the SI forum.

With "Take More Risk" PI you encourage your players pass into space, there'll be a lot trough balls passes in space

With "Take Less Risk" you encourage your players pass into feet, there'll be a few trough balls passes in space.

"Short Passes" or "Direct Passes" determines at what distance you encourage your player to make passes.

With "Short Passes" they'll be look for nearby teammates by still even with short distance there's an option how to pass: into feet or into space. Expand

That's really nice, so it's about more of the distance you start the pass! Thanks for the explanation

Will check it out, really curious about that.