lasko911 said: Why the new testing when ME version hasn't changed in the last patch? Expand
Hi,
Finally, almost after 2 months since the release in the current patch 26.1.1 we have been granted an ability to view what roles AI managers use in their tactics.
We took that information and also the data collected so far to further improve and enhance our tactic testing league.
So we updated our tactic testing league and the same time we applied the latest patch 26.1.1 to our testing server.
And, honestly, I don't want to guess what changes the score.
ZaZ said: I made lots of experiments with those sessions, together with Max from EFBM (credits to him too since it was a joint effort), and our conclusion was that Recovery is simply not worth it. It is basically equivalent to "not resting and not training". If your goal is to recover condition or preventing injuries, then resting is simply better, even more if you use super-rest (3x rest + send home to rest). The only benefit is to slow down the decay of match sharpness, which also happens if you have any training session during the day other than Rest. Even if it made a big difference in match sharpness, you would be sacrificing the growth of your entire squad just for the possibility to rotate less to keep sharpness of the squad, which in turn would reduce even more the growth of your entire squad (more rotation = more player growth due to play time). Totally not worth it.
I would also advise against double intensity below excellent condition. I don't believe it is worth to risk injuries just to avoid resting one more day, because injured players not only stop training, but also harm the performance of your team during the current season. Expand
Back in FM24 @ZaZ discovered a very "interesting" mechanic that allows you greatly restore the Condition attribute of your player between matches.
I've tested it in FM26 and found it's still working.
All credit goes to @ZaZ, I'm just bumping it for FM26.
Here's how to use it to its full potential.
Just right after a match give the players who participated in that match 1 day rest.
I just want to stress, there's no point in giving more than 1 day rest, so 1 day rest is an optimal number, I strongly suggest sticking with that number.
You can select multiple players at once by holding down the left Shift button + Left Mouse button
Then Right Button Mouse click and Training -> Rest Players -> 1 Day
That will give the players an enormous amount of Conditions recovered and a massive Jadedness reduction.
By doing the "one day rest" you recover a crazy amount of Condition for the players and greatly reduce their Jadedness.
The amount is just crazy comparing to other options available and it really looks imbalanced and exploitishhhh.
ZaZ said: Can you test if super-rest is working in this version, please? It is a mechanic I discovered when researching condition with Max from EFBM, which basically means you can stack the condition recovery from a full day of rest (3x rest) and the recovery from manually sending to rest home. It works in FM24, but I didn't have the opportunity to test for FM26 yet. Expand
Hi,
I've checked and found that the "manual" rest exploited is still working in FM26.
It still looks like a game breaking exploit that allows restoring the Condition attribute almost at full for 1 day.
But I'm not sure if there's any negative consequences from using after every match.
For example, your players might start complaining that you "send" them home too often or something like that.
In the future, there'll be a deeper insight into the training and how the most optimal training looks like.
But I want to start by explaining simple and basic concepts.
Because a good understanding how the training works and a proper Conditions managers have a crucial impact on your success in FM.
Ok, let’s simulate a scenario when your team plays 2 matches per week during the season.
Let's first look at the Condition and Jadedness attributes if there’s NO training happening between the matches at all, in other words, “Rest” has been set for every training session.
Also, notice that the same starring elven will be used for all the matches. No rotation will happen and no subs allowed during the matches.
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley): Condition: 10,000 Jadedness: (0)
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen): Conditions: 9,200 Jadedness: (+10)
The values before Before “Match 3”(vs Brentford): Conditions: 9,350 Jadedness: (-5)
As you can see when we arrived at the Match 3, which can be considered as the beginning of our “loop” that consists of 2 matches per week then the Condition value turned out to be just 9,350 instead of 10,000.
If we keep repeating this loop Infinite amount of times then eventually we will get consistent values of the Condition attribute before “Match 1” and “Match 2” and the those values will look like this:
The values of attributes before “Match 1”(vs Burnley): Condition: 9,300 Jadedness: (-500) <--- A negative value of Jadedness is a good thing, it means that players shrug off more Jadedness between matches than they get during matches and training.
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen): Conditions: 9,200 Jadedness: (-500)
As you can see if your team plays 2 matches per week and you don’t rotate the team then it isn’t possible to reach the maximum value for the Condition attribute, which is 10,000, even WITHOUT ANY TRAINING at all.
Now let’s throw just 2 training sessions per week and see how it will affect the condition.
There’ll be 2 training session per week: General(“Overall”) and General(“Physical”).
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley): Condition: 10,000 Jadedness: (0)
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen): Conditions: 9,100 Jadedness: (+20)
The values before Before “Match 3”(vs Brentford): Conditions: 9,150 Jadedness: (+30)
If we keep repeating this loop Infinite amount of times then eventually we will get consistent values of the Condition attribute before “Match 1” and “Match 2”” and the those values will look like this:
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley): Condition: 8,900 Jadedness: (+500) <--- A positive value of Jadedness is a bad thing, it means that players shrug off less Jadedness between matches than they get during matches and training.
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen): Conditions: 8,050 Jadedness: (+500)
As you can see, throwing just only 2 training sessions per week makes your players to start matches with only 8,050 and 8,900 Condition, of course, it’s in case long term playing 2 matches per week and if no rotation happens. Also, notice in this case the Jadedness stacks and grows to the max value of +500, which further decreases the recovery rate between matches and makes players unhappy.
How much does the Condition attribute affect the result?
As you can see, without a proper training and condition manager you can significantly worsen your result, and even using the most effective tactic won’t help you.
Of course, when your team plays only 1 match per week then everything is much less complected and there's much more room for maneuver when it comes to the training.
But as you can see if your team play 2 matches per week then even a small mistake when it comes to the training and condition management can "destroy" your results.
Mark said: Will there be separate tactic testing on the 26.1 update given there were changes to the match engine and if so is there a plan or a process for which tactics get retested? Expand
Hi,
Yes, there'll be separate tactic testing on the 26.1 update.
We haven't started re-testing tactics for the 26.1 update yet because the FMRTE app still hasn't been updated to support the latest FM 26.1 public update. As soon it gets updated we start testing on the 26.1 update.
As usual, all the tactics in the HoF will be re-tested automatically and tactics outside the HoF can be re-tested via the "re-test request feature" that will be available as soon as we start testing on the 26.1 public update.
If we take the default league settings when the players in the human controller teams and AI controlled teams have 10,000 for the Condition attribute then the tactic scores 79 Points.
But if we decrease the the Condition attribute value of the players in the human controller team to 8,800 and 7,800 then we’ll get the following results:
As you can see, if we decrease the Condition attributes of the players in human controlled teams from 10,000 to 7,800 then the result drops by 31 Points from 79 Points to 48 Points.
What is the "Natural Fitness" attribute? "Natural Fitness" is a visible player’s attribute. It can take values from 0 to 20.
It affect the rate at which a player recovers Condition between matches.
What is the Energy(Jadedness) attribute? Energy(Jadedness) is a hidden attribute.
It can take values from "-500" to "+500".
A high negative value - is good. A high positive value - is bad.
It affects the rate at which a player gains the Condition between matches.
Usually, a player gets about 50-70 points of Jadedness after a match.
One day of full rest decreases the Jadedness attribute by 20 points so it requires about three days of full rest to "remove" the jadedness from one match.
What is the Match Sharpness attribute? Match Sharpness is a hidden attribute.
It can take values from "0" to "10,000".
It affects the rate at which players lose the Condition during match and the rate at which they recover the Condition between matches.
What is the best way to recover the Condition attribute? Resting is the best way to restore the condition.
What is the highest amount of Condition that can be recovered per day? The rate at which the Condition is recovered depends on the Condition initial level.
If we take one day of full rest then the amount recovered would look like this for different initial level:
The numbers above are true for "0" Jadedness and "10,000" Matches Sharpness.
A higher level of Jadedness and a lower level of Matches Sharpness will decrease the amount of Condition recovered.
Should you always try to bring the Condition level of your player at 10,000 before every match? No, a task to achieve 10,000 value for the Condition is almost impossible because the rate at which the Condition attribute is restored after 9,000 level is very low.
So you should look for 9,000 - 9,300 range.
How much does the Condition attribute decrease after a match? It depends on many factors. The rate differs for positions and roles. Also, the Intensity of a tactic greatly affects the rate at which the Conditions are consumed.
Mark Tighter said: Hi Zippo, do capital letters count? I mean is it a problem if the tactic name is the same but the tactic in the game is saved with small letters but it's uploaded written in capital letters? Expand
it doesn't look like it's "case sensitive" but if you ask me I wouldn't risk
In order we could import and test your tactic, the name of your tactic when uploading it, MUST EXACTLY matches with the name you used to save your tactic in the game
Save your tactic in the game.
Then use that name when uploading your tactic on our site.
Mark said: @Zippo can you please tell us what formations the AI teams use in your test league and what the margin of error is in your current testing using 1350 matches. I would like to be able to look at which tactics work best against each of the top 5 AI tactics and also which tactics are falling within the margin of error of the top tactics for particular formations
Thanks Expand
Hi,
AI Team 1 - IP(4-3-3 DM Wide) OOP(4-1-4-1 DM) AI Team 2 - IP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide) OOP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide) AI Team 3 - IP(5-2-2-1 DM AM) OOP(5-2-2-1 DM AM) AI Team 4 - IP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide) OOP(4-4-1-1 2 DM) AI Team 5 - IP(4-2-4 DM Wide) OOP(4-2-4 DM Wide)
There's a bizarre thing about sharing tactic for FM26.
If the file name of a tactic differs from the name it was saved in the game then the tactic can't be imported.
This means when you upload your tactic for our testing then you should name it EXACTLY the same as you saved it in the game otherwise it could not be imported and tested.
I really don't understand why SI made it works this way, it created a lot headache for everyone.
alexej said: No problem and thank you for the quick fix. Are tactics effected by the bug such as this one going to be retested for more accurate scores? Appreciate all the hard work you've been putting in! Expand
alexej said: Its even easier to spot the "quick pick" bug when you look at the combined screen. Picture 1 is the tactic as intended, and picture 2 shows the quick pick button being selected. Expand
Thank for reporting the issue!
We've applied a fix to our tactic testing server that prevents it from happening.
I hope it's coming soon
Hi,
Finally, almost after 2 months since the release in the current patch 26.1.1 we have been granted an ability to view what roles AI managers use in their tactics.
We took that information and also the data collected so far to further improve and enhance our tactic testing league.
So we updated our tactic testing league and the same time we applied the latest patch 26.1.1 to our testing server.
And, honestly, I don't want to guess what changes the score.
I would also advise against double intensity below excellent condition. I don't believe it is worth to risk injuries just to avoid resting one more day, because injured players not only stop training, but also harm the performance of your team during the current season.
I can confirm that.
That's still true for FM26.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/16424-rest-exploit-fm26/
https://fm-arena.com/thread/16275-part-1-conditions-management-one-of-the-core-fm26-mechanics/
https://fm-arena.com/thread/16417-part-2-conditions-management-one-of-the-core-fm26-mechanics/
Hi there,
Back in FM24 @ZaZ discovered a very "interesting" mechanic that allows you greatly restore the Condition attribute of your player between matches.
I've tested it in FM26 and found it's still working.
All credit goes to @ZaZ, I'm just bumping it for FM26.
Here's how to use it to its full potential.
Just right after a match give the players who participated in that match 1 day rest.
I just want to stress, there's no point in giving more than 1 day rest, so 1 day rest is an optimal number, I strongly suggest sticking with that number.
You can select multiple players at once by holding down the left Shift button + Left Mouse button
Then Right Button Mouse click and Training -> Rest Players -> 1 Day
That will give the players an enormous amount of Conditions recovered and a massive Jadedness reduction.
By doing the "one day rest" you recover a crazy amount of Condition for the players and greatly reduce their Jadedness.
The amount is just crazy comparing to other options available and it really looks imbalanced and exploitishhhh.
Hi,
I've checked and found that the "manual" rest exploited is still working in FM26.
It still looks like a game breaking exploit that allows restoring the Condition attribute almost at full for 1 day.
But I'm not sure if there's any negative consequences from using after every match.
For example, your players might start complaining that you "send" them home too often or something like that.
Hi,
In the future, there'll be a deeper insight into the training and how the most optimal training looks like.
But I want to start by explaining simple and basic concepts.
Because a good understanding how the training works and a proper Conditions managers have a crucial impact on your success in FM.
Ok, let’s simulate a scenario when your team plays 2 matches per week during the season.
Let's first look at the Condition and Jadedness attributes if there’s NO training happening between the matches at all, in other words, “Rest” has been set for every training session.
Also, notice that the same starring elven will be used for all the matches. No rotation will happen and no subs allowed during the matches.
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley):
Condition: 10,000
Jadedness: (0)
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen):
Conditions: 9,200
Jadedness: (+10)
The values before Before “Match 3”(vs Brentford):
Conditions: 9,350
Jadedness: (-5)
As you can see when we arrived at the Match 3, which can be considered as the beginning of our “loop” that consists of 2 matches per week then the Condition value turned out to be just 9,350 instead of 10,000.
If we keep repeating this loop Infinite amount of times then eventually we will get consistent values of the Condition attribute before “Match 1” and “Match 2” and the those values will look like this:
The values of attributes before “Match 1”(vs Burnley):
Condition: 9,300
Jadedness: (-500) <--- A negative value of Jadedness is a good thing, it means that players shrug off more Jadedness between matches than they get during matches and training.
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen):
Conditions: 9,200
Jadedness: (-500)
As you can see if your team plays 2 matches per week and you don’t rotate the team then it isn’t possible to reach the maximum value for the Condition attribute, which is 10,000, even WITHOUT ANY TRAINING at all.
Now let’s throw just 2 training sessions per week and see how it will affect the condition.
There’ll be 2 training session per week: General(“Overall”) and General(“Physical”).
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley):
Condition: 10,000
Jadedness: (0)
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen):
Conditions: 9,100
Jadedness: (+20)
The values before Before “Match 3”(vs Brentford):
Conditions: 9,150
Jadedness: (+30)
If we keep repeating this loop Infinite amount of times then eventually we will get consistent values of the Condition attribute before “Match 1” and “Match 2”” and the those values will look like this:
The values before “Match 1”(vs Burnley):
Condition: 8,900
Jadedness: (+500) <--- A positive value of Jadedness is a bad thing, it means that players shrug off less Jadedness between matches than they get during matches and training.
The values before “Match 2”(vs Bayern Leverkusen):
Conditions: 8,050
Jadedness: (+500)
As you can see, throwing just only 2 training sessions per week makes your players to start matches with only 8,050 and 8,900 Condition, of course, it’s in case long term playing 2 matches per week and if no rotation happens. Also, notice in this case the Jadedness stacks and grows to the max value of +500, which further decreases the recovery rate between matches and makes players unhappy.
How much does the Condition attribute affect the result?
Condition 10,000 = 79 Points
Condition 8,800 = 66 Points
Condition 7,800 = 48 Points
As you can see, without a proper training and condition manager you can significantly worsen your result, and even using the most effective tactic won’t help you.
Of course, when your team plays only 1 match per week then everything is much less complected and there's much more room for maneuver when it comes to the training.
But as you can see if your team play 2 matches per week then even a small mistake when it comes to the training and condition management can "destroy" your results.
Hi,
Yes, there'll be separate tactic testing on the 26.1 update.
We haven't started re-testing tactics for the 26.1 update yet because the FMRTE app still hasn't been updated to support the latest FM 26.1 public update. As soon it gets updated we start testing on the 26.1 update.
As usual, all the tactics in the HoF will be re-tested automatically and tactics outside the HoF can be re-tested via the "re-test request feature" that will be available as soon as we start testing on the 26.1 public update.
What is the "Condition" attribute?
"Condition" is a hidden player's attribute.
You can think of it as a player's physical state.
It determines how well a player performs during matches.
It can take values from 0 to 10,000 but in practice, it never goes to "0" because its lowest level is limited by the "Natural Fitness" attribute.
A high intensity tactic "drains" more "Condition" than a low high intensity tactic.
How much does the "Condition" attribute affect the performance?
As an example, let's take the result of this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/16086-zaz-winter-0-26/
If we take the default league settings when the players in the human controller teams and AI controlled teams have 10,000 for the Condition attribute then the tactic scores 79 Points.
But if we decrease the the Condition attribute value of the players in the human controller team to 8,800 and 7,800 then we’ll get the following results:
Condition 10,000 = 79 Points
Condition 8,800 = 66 Points
Condition 7,800 = 48 Points
As you can see, if we decrease the Condition attributes of the players in human controlled teams from 10,000 to 7,800 then the result drops by 31 Points from 79 Points to 48 Points.
What is the "Natural Fitness" attribute?
"Natural Fitness" is a visible player’s attribute. It can take values from 0 to 20.
It affect the rate at which a player recovers Condition between matches.
What is the Energy(Jadedness) attribute?
Energy(Jadedness) is a hidden attribute.
It can take values from "-500" to "+500".
A high negative value - is good. A high positive value - is bad.
It affects the rate at which a player gains the Condition between matches.
Usually, a player gets about 50-70 points of Jadedness after a match.
One day of full rest decreases the Jadedness attribute by 20 points so it requires about three days of full rest to "remove" the jadedness from one match.
What is the Match Sharpness attribute?
Match Sharpness is a hidden attribute.
It can take values from "0" to "10,000".
It affects the rate at which players lose the Condition during match and the rate at which they recover the Condition between matches.
What is the best way to recover the Condition attribute?
Resting is the best way to restore the condition.
What is the highest amount of Condition that can be recovered per day?
The rate at which the Condition is recovered depends on the Condition initial level.
If we take one day of full rest then the amount recovered would look like this for different initial level:
Initial Level 7,000 -> +1,240 = 8,240
Initial Level 8,000 -> +813 = 8,813
Initial Level 9,000 -> +275 = 9,275
The numbers above are true for "0" Jadedness and "10,000" Matches Sharpness.
A higher level of Jadedness and a lower level of Matches Sharpness will decrease the amount of Condition recovered.
Should you always try to bring the Condition level of your player at 10,000 before every match?
No, a task to achieve 10,000 value for the Condition is almost impossible because the rate at which the Condition attribute is restored after 9,000 level is very low.
So you should look for 9,000 - 9,300 range.
How much does the Condition attribute decrease after a match?
It depends on many factors. The rate differs for positions and roles. Also, the Intensity of a tactic greatly affects the rate at which the Conditions are consumed.
For example, if we take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/16086-zaz-winter-0-26/ then it reduces the Condition attributes about 3,700 after a match.
So if you play with this tactic then you need to recover about 2,700 Condition between matches.
Does "Resting" have any negative impact on players?
Yes, it does have negative impacts:
- Players doesn't develop when they are "resting" and even their attributes might start declining.
- Team Cohesion and Match Sharpness decrease.
Hmmm... you should be able to fully edit the thread. I don't see there's any issue to prevent it.
Could you send me a screenshot of the error you getting.
it doesn't look like it's "case sensitive" but if you ask me I wouldn't risk
Save your tactic in the game.
Then use that name when uploading your tactic on our site.
I see you finally managed to overcome the bloody "the tactic could not be imported" issue.
What did do? Could be useful for people.
Thanks
Hi,
AI Team 1 - IP(4-3-3 DM Wide) OOP(4-1-4-1 DM)
AI Team 2 - IP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide) OOP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide)
AI Team 3 - IP(5-2-2-1 DM AM) OOP(5-2-2-1 DM AM)
AI Team 4 - IP(4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide) OOP(4-4-1-1 2 DM)
AI Team 5 - IP(4-2-4 DM Wide) OOP(4-2-4 DM Wide)
Hi,
No, it's tactic specific.
For some reason the author assigned the striker to play the CM. It's purely his choice(or just a mistake) we can't do nothing about.
In the future there'll be many tactics where you see that warning but that's by design.
There's a bizarre thing about sharing tactic for FM26.
If the file name of a tactic differs from the name it was saved in the game then the tactic can't be imported.
This means when you upload your tactic for our testing then you should name it EXACTLY the same as you saved it in the game otherwise it could not be imported and tested.
I really don't understand why SI made it works this way, it created a lot headache for everyone.
But I just warned you.
yes, we'll retest this tactic.
Thank for reporting the issue!
We've applied a fix to our tactic testing server that prevents it from happening.
Hi,
Please, try once more.
The issue should be fixed.
Thank for reporting.