Jolt said: That is extremely surprising. So every combination tried merely increases cumulatively with the increase of the combined chosen attributes, with no statistical difference from the sum of the chosen attributes?
EDIT: So what does testing of a 20 Pace and 20 Acceleration look like, in terms of points, goals for and goals against, as opposed to a 20 Pace 10 Acceleration, or a 10 Pace 20 Acceleration? Expand
Hi,
"20 Acc/ 20 Pace" combo gets a higher score than "20 Acc/ 10 Pace" or "10 Acc/ 20 Pace" combos.
"20 Acc/ 10 Pace" and "10 Acc/ 20 Pace" combos get similar scores.
"20 Jumping/10 Heading" combo gets a higher score than "10 Jumping/20 Heading" combo.
nios said: About the GK Attributes, since you included some physicals in your tests such as Agility, Acceleration, Pace, are you going to test Jumping reach for them? Expand
In the game you can hover the mouse cursor over "Aerial Reach" attribute and read the description.
When it comes to aerial challenges GKs use "Aerial Reach" attribute instead of "Jumping Reach" attribute as outfield players do.
Germaniac said: I remember reading in another thread that other than decorative attributes, the ones that matter are divided into 2. I think it was capped and uncapped. Capped attributes have diminished effects beyond a certain point while uncapped attributes will give an effect for each point until 20. Are these gonna be tested too? Expand
Those were my words earlier but more testing proved that it was a wrong assumption so I take it back.
CBP87 said: @Zippo Going off what you've found so far, minus acceleration and pace, what would you say are the go to attributes? is there a certain value threshold that we should look for? e.g +15 points
Great work as always Expand
I think the most effective approach to pick players would be something like this:
According to our attribute test improving each your outfield player's Acceleration attribute by 1 point improves your team result by 5.3 points on 38 matches distance. Ok, but where did I get that 5.3 value for the Acceleration attribute? It's quite simple just look at the test result of Acceleration attribute and you find that increasing its value from 8 to 20 improves the result by 64 points then increasing the Acceleration value only by 1 point would increase the result for 5.3 points. For simplicity's sake we assume that the relationship is linear here.
Using the same approach as above we can find out, let's call them "Weights", of other attributes Pace, Anticipation and Work Rate.
So the weights for Acceleration, Pace, Anticipation and Pace would be:
Acceleration = 5.3 Pace = 5.3 Anticipation = 1.5 Work Rate = 1
Now, when we know the weights of the attributes we can calculate the "usefulness" values of "Player A" and "Player B"
"Player A" = (16 Acceleration) x 5.3, (16 Pace) x 5.3, (8 Anticipation) x 1.5 , (8 Work Rate) x 1 = 189 W "Player B" = (15 Acceleration) x 5.3, (15 Pace) x 5.3, (18 Anticipation) x 1.5 , (18 Work Rate) x 1 = 204 W
It comes out that the "Player B" is a slight better pick than "Player A" despite the fact that "Player A" is faster than "Player B"
AIK said: Is it possible to test Agility from a GK point of view? Expand
The RNG of the test is about (+/- 1.5 Point) (+/- 1.5 Goals For) (+/- 1.5 Goals Against)
Look at the result of Agility test for 10 outfield positions, it's (Points +8), (Goals For +6), (Goals Against -6) which means it's about (Points +0.8), (Goals For +0.6), (Goals Against -0.6) per 1 outfield position.
So testing Agility only for 1 position doesn't make sense because the difference won't overcome the RNG of the test.
Even that GK position is a bit different than any other outfield position but I really doubt that changing Agility attribute from 8 to 20 only for 1 position would overcome the test RNG and btw, we test each attribute about 9,000 matches and despite that there's still RNG (+/- 1.5 Point) (+/- 1.5 Goals For) (+/- 1.5 Goals Against).
AIK said: So basically, what you are saying is that with 8 Pace there is "X points", "Z goals for" and "Y goals against" - but once we are adding 20 Pace we are 64 points/45 Goals/-59 Against in a 38 match league from the 8 Pace baseline statistics? Expand
Yes, improving the Pace attribute of all your outfield players from 8 to 20 adds to the result about +64 pts if we take a standard league of 38 matches.
In real life "Inside Forwards" are flanking players that prefer to cut inside with the ball from the flanks to the central area instead of running with the ball down the flanks as "Wingers" prefer to do.
So in real life when an Inside Forward cuts inside with the ball from the flank to the central area he controls the ball with the foot opposite to the side he's playing.
Speaking other words, in real life when an Inside Forward that plays on the left flank cuts inside with the ball to the central area he controls the ball with his right foot so he must be comfortable using his right foot.
But how does it work in FM24? Whether the preferred foot rating has an impact on the performance of Inside Forwards in FM24?
We've tested that for FM24!
Inside Forward Preferred Foot
QUESTION: Does the Preferred Foot matter for Inside Forwards in FM24? ANSWER: No, it seems doesn't matter.
QUESTION: Does improving the weak foot's rating improve the result? ANSWER: Yes, it does but for a very tiny amount, so taking into consideration that the weak foot rating costs a lot of CA points for a player, it's totally not worth taking.
Glennson said: Will important matches hidden atribute be tested too? Might also impact a lot. Expand There's only one hidden attribute that directly affects a match result, it's Consistency and it's been tested already.
Bafici said: @Zippo How many matches are played in the tests? A 38-game season? Expand As usual, everything was tested for thousands matches but then the data was translated for a standard season of 38 matches, to reflect what difference you can expect during a standard season of 38 matches.
Glennson said: Can you test this with the top corner tactics from Mark in the set piece section aswell? Expand
We've tested it and found out that the set pieces you purposed gave a better result that our so I updated the 1st post and put the better set pieces as the example instead of our.
But please guys, don't offer to us here any other set pieces for testing because at the current moment we aren't doing any set pieces testing and this thread has a different purpose.
The purpose of this thread is not to test set pieces but just to draw people's attention to fact that the importance of the set pieces should not be overlook and they should not be delegated to the staff because handling it yourself can give a nice boost to the result.
In FM you can delegate control over the Set Pieces to your staff.
But delegating control over the Set Pieces to your staff might be not a good idea because we tested that and found out that even the most skilled coaches in the game which have associated attributes at "20" level do worse then you can do.
In the table bellow you can find the result of an assistant manager with all "20" attributes and the following set pieces made by Knap and CSTG KANE:
Attacking Corners - "Attacking Corner Best Hits From Knap AzureV3"
Defensive Corners - "Corner defend Best Hits FROM CSTG KANE!"
As you can see taking control over the set pieces gives a nice boost to the result, it improves the score points by 7 points comparing to when the assistant manager handle the set pieces even he's got all the attributes at "20".
Below you can find the corners set pieces that we used in the test.
*Attacking Corners* Attacking Corner Best Hits From Knap AzureV3
*Defensive Corners* Corner defend Best Hits FROM CSTG KANE!
pixar said: What about goalkeeping attributes? Expand
Probably, at some point we'll test GK attributes too but it has a low priority.
VenEttore said: Thanks for your great work so far! The new tests involving condition and morale have suddenly got me wondering about "Team Cohesion" in the Dynamics tab. The text seems to imply that player performance is amplified with each other when Team Cohesion is high, but I now wonder if this is also decorative Expand
Jolt said: @Zippo Are you going to test 2 or 3 attribute combinations? Expand
We've tired testing attributes in combinations, assuming that one attribute might somehow amplify another, but we found out that wasn't the case so there's no point testing attribute combinations.
pixar said: Could we also test qualities such as height, personality, and morale? Expand
Yes, some of the attributes you mentioned are on the list. Specifically, we're also planning to test the Position Rating, Consistency, Morale and probably, Conditions too.
AIK said: Just thinking if I, for now, are fine by taking all the results and simply do an addition of each step ((64 points / (20-8=12)) = 5.333) per step, for Pace/Acc as an example). So 9 pace is 5.33, 10 pace is 10.66, 11 pace is 15.99 etc etc. Expand
Yes, that would be a quite accurate estimation. Even if it's slight off then I wouldn't worry, it's not a big deal, no one dies that's for sure, we aren't doing a brain surgery here
VenEttore said: Just to confirm, are these results for any player regardless of position or role? Expand
This test is only for outfield players. GK is excluded from the test.
All the outfield players in the human controlled teams in our tactic testing league at the same time get their default attributes changed and tested with 2 values( 8 and 20 ) and then we measure the difference between "8" and "20" values.
nios said: So what's the conclusion from these tests? - Aggression, Bravery, Flair, Teamwork, Vision, Off The Ball, Positioning are the useless attributes? Expand
Yup, those attributes are "decorative" attributes that don't do anything "inside" matches.
nios said: Can't find the post you made the other day, about capped and uncapped attributes. You said something that some attributes make a difference all over from 8 to 20 and some attributes make a difference from 8 to 14 and no difference at all past that. Also there are some attributes that make no difference at all from 8 to 20. Expand
Yeahh, I said that earlier but more testing proved that it was an incorrect assumption. I'm taking it back.
sponsorkindest said: thanks for the awesome work! just a suggestion, we know that finding attributes at value 20 is unlikely in the game. So if possible, please check the behavior at value = 15. Expand
Hi,
Our the most recent research of the subject confirmed that the relationship between improving the attributes and the result changes is kind of linear.
For example, if improving Pace from 8 to 20 improve the result by +64 points then improving Pace from 8 to 15 points would improve the result by +37 point.
You can easily calculate it yourself for any attribute level you want.
EDIT: So what does testing of a 20 Pace and 20 Acceleration look like, in terms of points, goals for and goals against, as opposed to a 20 Pace 10 Acceleration, or a 10 Pace 20 Acceleration?
Hi,
"20 Acc/ 20 Pace" combo gets a higher score than "20 Acc/ 10 Pace" or "10 Acc/ 20 Pace" combos.
"20 Acc/ 10 Pace" and "10 Acc/ 20 Pace" combos get similar scores.
"20 Jumping/10 Heading" combo gets a higher score than "10 Jumping/20 Heading" combo.
I hope it helps.
Cheers.
In the game you can hover the mouse cursor over "Aerial Reach" attribute and read the description.
When it comes to aerial challenges GKs use "Aerial Reach" attribute instead of "Jumping Reach" attribute as outfield players do.
Those were my words earlier but more testing proved that it was a wrong assumption so I take it back.
Great work as always
I think the most effective approach to pick players would be something like this:
Let's say you're choosing between 2 players:
"Player A" 16 Acceleration, 16 Pace, 8 Anticipation, 8 Work Rate
"Player B" 15 Acceleration, 15 Pace, 18 Anticipation, 18 Work Rate
Which of them to pick?
According to our attribute test improving each your outfield player's Acceleration attribute by 1 point improves your team result by 5.3 points on 38 matches distance. Ok, but where did I get that 5.3 value for the Acceleration attribute? It's quite simple just look at the test result of Acceleration attribute and you find that increasing its value from 8 to 20 improves the result by 64 points then increasing the Acceleration value only by 1 point would increase the result for 5.3 points. For simplicity's sake we assume that the relationship is linear here.
Using the same approach as above we can find out, let's call them "Weights", of other attributes Pace, Anticipation and Work Rate.
So the weights for Acceleration, Pace, Anticipation and Pace would be:
Acceleration = 5.3
Pace = 5.3
Anticipation = 1.5
Work Rate = 1
Now, when we know the weights of the attributes we can calculate the "usefulness" values of "Player A" and "Player B"
"Player A" = (16 Acceleration) x 5.3, (16 Pace) x 5.3, (8 Anticipation) x 1.5 , (8 Work Rate) x 1 = 189 W
"Player B" = (15 Acceleration) x 5.3, (15 Pace) x 5.3, (18 Anticipation) x 1.5 , (18 Work Rate) x 1 = 204 W
It comes out that the "Player B" is a slight better pick than "Player A" despite the fact that "Player A" is faster than "Player B"
The RNG of the test is about (+/- 1.5 Point) (+/- 1.5 Goals For) (+/- 1.5 Goals Against)
Look at the result of Agility test for 10 outfield positions, it's (Points +8), (Goals For +6), (Goals Against -6) which means it's about (Points +0.8), (Goals For +0.6), (Goals Against -0.6) per 1 outfield position.
So testing Agility only for 1 position doesn't make sense because the difference won't overcome the RNG of the test.
Even that GK position is a bit different than any other outfield position but I really doubt that changing Agility attribute from 8 to 20 only for 1 position would overcome the test RNG and btw, we test each attribute about 9,000 matches and despite that there's still RNG (+/- 1.5 Point) (+/- 1.5 Goals For) (+/- 1.5 Goals Against).
Yes, improving the Pace attribute of all your outfield players from 8 to 20 adds to the result about +64 pts if we take a standard league of 38 matches.
In real life "Inside Forwards" are flanking players that prefer to cut inside with the ball from the flanks to the central area instead of running with the ball down the flanks as "Wingers" prefer to do.
So in real life when an Inside Forward cuts inside with the ball from the flank to the central area he controls the ball with the foot opposite to the side he's playing.
Speaking other words, in real life when an Inside Forward that plays on the left flank cuts inside with the ball to the central area he controls the ball with his right foot so he must be comfortable using his right foot.
But how does it work in FM24? Whether the preferred foot rating has an impact on the performance of Inside Forwards in FM24?
We've tested that for FM24!
Inside Forward Preferred Foot
QUESTION: Does the Preferred Foot matter for Inside Forwards in FM24?
ANSWER: No, it seems doesn't matter.
QUESTION: Does improving the weak foot's rating improve the result?
ANSWER: Yes, it does but for a very tiny amount, so taking into consideration that the weak foot rating costs a lot of CA points for a player, it's totally not worth taking.
There's only one hidden attribute that directly affects a match result, it's Consistency and it's been tested already.
Bafici said: @Zippo How many matches are played in the tests? A 38-game season?
As usual, everything was tested for thousands matches but then the data was translated for a standard season of 38 matches, to reflect what difference you can expect during a standard season of 38 matches.
We've tested it and found out that the set pieces you purposed gave a better result that our so I updated the 1st post and put the better set pieces as the example instead of our.
But please guys, don't offer to us here any other set pieces for testing because at the current moment we aren't doing any set pieces testing and this thread has a different purpose.
The purpose of this thread is not to test set pieces but just to draw people's attention to fact that the importance of the set pieces should not be overlook and they should not be delegated to the staff because handling it yourself can give a nice boost to the result.
Upload here the routine you were talking about and we'll test it.
In FM you can delegate control over the Set Pieces to your staff.
But delegating control over the Set Pieces to your staff might be not a good idea because we tested that and found out that even the most skilled coaches in the game which have associated attributes at "20" level do worse then you can do.
In the table bellow you can find the result of an assistant manager with all "20" attributes and the following set pieces made by Knap and CSTG KANE:
Attacking Corners - "Attacking Corner Best Hits From Knap AzureV3"
Defensive Corners - "Corner defend Best Hits FROM CSTG KANE!"
As you can see taking control over the set pieces gives a nice boost to the result, it improves the score points by 7 points comparing to when the assistant manager handle the set pieces even he's got all the attributes at "20".
Below you can find the corners set pieces that we used in the test.
*Attacking Corners*
Attacking Corner Best Hits From Knap AzureV3
*Defensive Corners*
Corner defend Best Hits FROM CSTG KANE!
Probably, at some point we'll test GK attributes too but it has a low priority.
VenEttore said: Thanks for your great work so far! The new tests involving condition and morale have suddenly got me wondering about "Team Cohesion" in the Dynamics tab. The text seems to imply that player performance is amplified with each other when Team Cohesion is high, but I now wonder if this is also decorative
Team Cohesion has been tested already - https://fm-arena.com/thread/9943-fm24-team-cohesion-good-vs-excellent/
But for a better visibility I've also added Team Cohesion's result to this thread.
We've tired testing attributes in combinations, assuming that one attribute might somehow amplify another, but we found out that wasn't the case so there's no point testing attribute combinations.
Yes, some of the attributes you mentioned are on the list. Specifically, we're also planning to test the Position Rating, Consistency, Morale and probably, Conditions too.
Yes.
AIK said: 1. We're missing Tackling from the list currently.
Don't worry it's also in the queue for testing.
Yes, that would be a quite accurate estimation. Even if it's slight off then I wouldn't worry, it's not a big deal, no one dies that's for sure, we aren't doing a brain surgery here
This test is only for outfield players. GK is excluded from the test.
All the outfield players in the human controlled teams in our tactic testing league at the same time get their default attributes changed and tested with 2 values( 8 and 20 ) and then we measure the difference between "8" and "20" values.
- Aggression, Bravery, Flair, Teamwork, Vision, Off The Ball, Positioning are the useless attributes?
Yup, those attributes are "decorative" attributes that don't do anything "inside" matches.
You said something that some attributes make a difference all over from 8 to 20 and some attributes make a difference from 8 to 14 and no difference at all past that.
Also there are some attributes that make no difference at all from 8 to 20.
Yeahh, I said that earlier but more testing proved that it was an incorrect assumption. I'm taking it back.
Hi,
Our the most recent research of the subject confirmed that the relationship between improving the attributes and the result changes is kind of linear.
For example, if improving Pace from 8 to 20 improve the result by +64 points then improving Pace from 8 to 15 points would improve the result by +37 point.
You can easily calculate it yourself for any attribute level you want.