It's really important to understand how to translate the results of FM-Arena tactic testing into your normal save.
In FM-Arena tactic testing league all teams are equal in terms of the quality, there're no strong and weak teams in the league.
But when you play a normal save in a normal league then there're always strong and weak teams.
For example, when you play a normal save and manage one of top clubs such as Man City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid then using a top tactic from FM-Arena tactic testing you can end up a season with 100 points or more, which means you get about 87% of the possible points.
In FM-Arena Tactic Testing the first tactic "4231 Hegemony (through) underlap" got 63 points and the second tactic "433 BPrinciples" got 56 points so there's a 7 points difference between the tactics.
Please notice, in FM-Arena Tactic Testing those two tactics managed to get only about 55% of the possible points but what if we "buff" the human controlled teams in the testing league to be able to get at least 75% of the possible points and test our tactics to see how their results change.
Human Controlled Teams are buffed to get at least 75% of the possible points:
As you can see, we buffed the human controlled team to be able to get at 75% of the possible points instead of 55% and the difference between the tactics reduced from 7 points to 3.
Now, image what happen to the difference if we further "buff" the human controlled teams to be able to get at least 85% of the possible possible, it isn't hard to predict that the difference will decrease further from 3 points to 0.
The above means that when you manage a top club such Man City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid or other then you can use "4231 Hegemony (through) underlap" tactic or "433 BPrinciples" tactic and most of time you won't notice any difference between them despite the 7 points difference in FM-Arena tactic testing.
WOOOT?
Now, let's nerf the human controller teams in the testing league so they will able to get only 27% of the possible points and test our tactics again.
Human Controlled Teams are nerfed to get only 27% of the possible points:
As you can see the difference between the tactics disappeared.
The above means that the better/worse your players compared with your opponent players, the less your tactic matters.
We all know that many people prefer testing tactic with the strongest and weakest teams in the league but you can see that such choice is the worst because in this case the quality of the tactic play a very small role.
svonn said: Thanks for your reply @Zippo <3 I'll try to keep my points as concise as possible, but if something is unclear, I can elaborate further. Expand
Unforutanlty, I can't take into consideration the result of your test because 500 matches is really nothing and your testing methodology/environment is unknown for me and even if it were know then I still can't be sure that your test were done properly.
As I said it's been tested many times before but I can test it specially for you one more time.
svonn said: Thanks for your work @Zippo! From your experience, is there any chance if you would add some more archetype players to the teams (like a target forward where the jumping/strenth stats matches those of the defenders, at the cost of speed/dribbling), would the automated team selection be smart enough to use them if such a role is selected in a tactic? Expand
then you'll see that increasing Strength attribute by +5 points for 10 positions in the tactic improves the score from 60 pts to 62 pts, so just by 2 points, which could be just the RNG for 2,400 matches.
Now, imagine what would be the difference if instead of 10 position the Strength attribute were increased only 1 or 2 positions because that's how many strikers a typical tactic has.
So Strength attribute does nothing for strikers, it could be "10" or "15" or "20", there'll be almost no difference at all.
Believe me, you aren't the first person who rises that kind of concerns and believe me, we aren't less curious than you when it comes to such matter so we have tested it many times.
and change the strikers' roles from AF/CF to TF/TF and also tweak their attributes increasing Strength and Jumping Reach but decreasing Acceleration and Pace then the result will drop significantly.
It has been tested and proven many times that Acceleration and Pace attributes are much more valuable than Strength and Jumping Reach for any striker role.
Speaking other words, if you have TF role in your tactic then with a fast and short striker for that role your result always will be much better than if you had a strong, tall but slow striker.
We've put a limit on the number of new tactics a person can share per 24 hours and that number is "2" at the moment.
We're planning to keep the limit until the next patch arrives. Of course, if there are no M.E. changes in the next patch then we keep the limit further until there are significant M.E. changes.
alex said: Hey @Zippo , I see there are differences on the rating for some tactics. The changes you mention, impact how ai teams respond to the tactics tested. Or? Thanks Expand
Hi,
Yes, as I said the tactical settings of AI managers were further enhanced and optimized and as you can see almost every tactics dropped points, some tactics dropped more points and some less.
dzek said: Well done for that. Can all the news from the website be in a separate thread so that we don't have to look everywhere for them? Expand
Nah, we aren't going to make news of it because for those people who don't share tactics here, to be fair, that feature is irrelevant thing and those people who share their tactics will notice it anyway.
CBP87 said: Going to be honest with you mate, I have never noticed the status update before. Just seen it on one I've recently uploaded
Expand
you haven't noticed them because we just added them
Soon it will be improved further and you will be getting "a notification" every time when the status of your tactic changes or your tactic is tested.
Also, the "Rejected" Status will get a more detailed description about the issue with your tactic and "a special button" that you can click to put under review again after you fix the issue.
CSTG KANE said: Ok, so can I just check that I didn't miss any screenshots of my 60+ point tactics, otherwise it's too much of a strain on my CPU Expand
Not only 60+ points tactics, pal... you have to fix them all.
Otherwise, it would be unfair to other tacticians who followed the rules.
CSTG KANE said: It's actually hard to confirm this, I can only guarantee that from now on, my tactical screenshots won't show the same Expand
Nope, pal. I'm afraid it won't work that way.
You have to check every of your tested tactic and make sure all of them have proper screenshots. If it's needed you have to run tests again to add proper screenshots.
Only when you can confirm that all your tested tactics and non-tested tactics have proper screenshots we start test your new tactics again.
dzek said: My brother perhaps I did not explain my question well. Certainly not making in-match subs will have an impact and the test will not be as reliable. My point is that maybe the 'Use of Subs' attribute has something to do with when these subs are made and if they are made in general.
An example: - The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 1 may not make subs in-match or may make them quite late - for example in the 85th minute. - The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 20 to make subs very quickly and in every game.
This again would have an effect on the results as a more rested player in the game would have their ability at full capacity while those who are tired would be -3/-5 in every attribute due to fatigue. Expand
Only the game devs know for sure how "Use of Subs" attribute works, we can only guess about it.
Anyway, regardless of its working mechanic, it would be the same for every tactic tested so every tactic tested is effected by it at the same degree and we're comparing tactics here.
dzek said: 1. It says here that within the testing league no rotation happens for any team (including AI teams) however this seems to be something that is not the case and I wanted to ask if squad rotation of AI teams affects/increases the RNG? Expand Hi,
Yes, the AI managers rotate their teams but the alternative players for every position have the same attributes, morale and conditions as the main players, the alternative players are just copies of the main players so it can be considered as "no rotations happens"
dzek said: 2. Within matches the AI managers and assistant managers (of user controlled teams) do players subs but the 'Use of Subs' attribute is different for each of them individually. Does this play a role in the sub strategy and in the results and if so, does this also affect the RNG?
Thank you! Expand
Subs must happen and restricting them would have unpredictable consequences for the reliability of the results.
CBP87 said: @Zippo@Droid do you have this information available please? is it possible to add the result of 1200/2400/4000 (if applicable) to the results table? Expand
Hi,
Unfortunately, I don't think something like that would be possible.
@juwow, thank you for your vigilance and contribution, it's much appreciated.
@A Smile, @dzek, @letsgo9, thank you for your opinions and involvement in this situation, it's much appreciated.
@CSTG KANE, I see only one fair solution to this situation: you have to fix all the threads that have the same screenshots and add correct ones. Until then non of your tactics will be tested. Let me know when you're done.
infxamus said: Is it possible that there is a game file of the save at the end of the season? There used to be game saves available to see after a test was completed Expand
Hi,
We dropped that feature because the demand for game saves was low and the cost of hosting them was too high.
But we still keep all the game saves in an offline storage and I can provide them by a request.
There seems to be some obvious changes from last year, such as high LOE + Low def line being the default option last year, but now everything is much higher + much higher.
Sorry if it's been asked before. Expand
The last year TIs testing was more like an experiment and during the process it became clear that the way TIs work depends on formation/roles/duties/mentality and so on... other words, if something works well in one tactic then it isn't necessary also work well in other tactics.
The above means that if you want to test the TIs in a proper way then you have to test all possible combinations of TIs/Mentality/Formations/Roles/Duties. That would be something unrealizable to do. Also, add to it retesting with patches.
It's really important to understand how to translate the results of FM-Arena tactic testing into your normal save.
In FM-Arena tactic testing league all teams are equal in terms of the quality, there're no strong and weak teams in the league.
But when you play a normal save in a normal league then there're always strong and weak teams.
For example, when you play a normal save and manage one of top clubs such as Man City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid then using a top tactic from FM-Arena tactic testing you can end up a season with 100 points or more, which means you get about 87% of the possible points.
Now let's look at two following tactics:
4231 Hegemony (through) underlap - https://fm-arena.com/thread/7721-4231-hegemony-through-underlap/
433 BPrinciples - https://fm-arena.com/thread/8791-433-bprinciples/
In FM-Arena Tactic Testing the first tactic "4231 Hegemony (through) underlap" got 63 points and the second tactic "433 BPrinciples" got 56 points so there's a 7 points difference between the tactics.
Please notice, in FM-Arena Tactic Testing those two tactics managed to get only about 55% of the possible points but what if we "buff" the human controlled teams in the testing league to be able to get at least 75% of the possible points and test our tactics to see how their results change.
Human Controlled Teams are buffed to get at least 75% of the possible points:
As you can see, we buffed the human controlled team to be able to get at 75% of the possible points instead of 55% and the difference between the tactics reduced from 7 points to 3.
Now, image what happen to the difference if we further "buff" the human controlled teams to be able to get at least 85% of the possible possible, it isn't hard to predict that the difference will decrease further from 3 points to 0.
The above means that when you manage a top club such Man City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid or other then you can use "4231 Hegemony (through) underlap" tactic or "433 BPrinciples" tactic and most of time you won't notice any difference between them despite the 7 points difference in FM-Arena tactic testing.
WOOOT?
Now, let's nerf the human controller teams in the testing league so they will able to get only 27% of the possible points and test our tactics again.
Human Controlled Teams are nerfed to get only 27% of the possible points:
As you can see the difference between the tactics disappeared.
The above means that the better/worse your players compared with your opponent players, the less your tactic matters.
We all know that many people prefer testing tactic with the strongest and weakest teams in the league but you can see that such choice is the worst because in this case the quality of the tactic play a very small role.
Cheers.
This tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/8910-wingplay-target-forward-test-tactic/
( TYPE 1 ) Fast, short and weak striker ( 137 CA ) as Target Forward
( TYPE 2 ) Strong, tall and slow striker ( 140 CA ) as Target Forward
RESULT:
As you can see despite having a higher "star" rating as TF and a higher CA with TYPE 2 attributes, it still produces a worse result.
Btw, there's nothing surprising in that result because as I said, we've tested that many times already, just read through this thread or some others.
If you're getting any different results in your own tests then it's because you test for not enough matches or your testing mythology has issues.
Cheers.
With only 1 striker as TF, I doubt that the difference can beat the RNG even after 2,400 matches.
Edit the tactic and make both striker to be TF because it's the only way to see a difference that can beat the RNG after 2,400 matches.
Let me know when you're done.
Cheers.
Unforutanlty, I can't take into consideration the result of your test because 500 matches is really nothing and your testing methodology/environment is unknown for me and even if it were know then I still can't be sure that your test were done properly.
As I said it's been tested many times before but I can test it specially for you one more time.
Please, share any tactic that you think would work better with a slow/tall/strong striker instead of a fast/short striker - https://fm-arena.com/board/12-football-manager-2024-tactics-sharing-section/
The tactic will be tested through out our regular testing then I'll test it with the strikers you suggested
and you will be able to see what difference it'll make.
Hey,
If you look at our player attributes testing for FM24 - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/7542-5-points-to-strength-for-all-positions/
then you'll see that increasing Strength attribute by +5 points for 10 positions in the tactic improves the score from 60 pts to 62 pts, so just by 2 points, which could be just the RNG for 2,400 matches.
Now, imagine what would be the difference if instead of 10 position the Strength attribute were increased only 1 or 2 positions because that's how many strikers a typical tactic has.
So Strength attribute does nothing for strikers, it could be "10" or "15" or "20", there'll be almost no difference at all.
Believe me, you aren't the first person who rises that kind of concerns and believe me, we aren't less curious than you when it comes to such matter so we have tested it many times.
For instance, if you take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/8315-424-cf-cabuloso/
and change the strikers' roles from AF/CF to TF/TF and also tweak their attributes increasing Strength and Jumping Reach but decreasing Acceleration and Pace then the result will drop significantly.
It has been tested and proven many times that Acceleration and Pace attributes are much more valuable than Strength and Jumping Reach for any striker role.
Speaking other words, if you have TF role in your tactic then with a fast and short striker for that role your result always will be much better than if you had a strong, tall but slow striker.
Cheers.
Yes, of course... as soon as the re-testing for v2.0 DB is over.
We've put a limit on the number of new tactics a person can share per 24 hours and that number is "2" at the moment.
We're planning to keep the limit until the next patch arrives. Of course, if there are no M.E. changes in the next patch then we keep the limit further until there are significant M.E. changes.
Cheers.
Hi,
Yes, as I said the tactical settings of AI managers were further enhanced and optimized and as you can see almost every tactics dropped points, some tactics dropped more points and some less.
Cheers.
Since the release of FM24 we've gather enough data to update and improve FM-Arena tactic testing league.
The improvements focus on enhancing and optimizing the tactical setting of AI managers in the league.
The updated DB result - https://fm-arena.com/table/28-patch-24-2-0-v2-0/
The old DB result - https://fm-arena.com/table/27-patch-24-2-0-v1-0/
Cheers.
Nah, we aren't going to make news of it because for those people who don't share tactics here, to be fair, that feature is irrelevant thing
you haven't noticed them because we just added them
Soon it will be improved further and you will be getting "a notification" every time when the status of your tactic changes or your tactic is tested.
Also, the "Rejected" Status will get a more detailed description about the issue with your tactic and "a special button" that you can click to put under review again after you fix the issue.
Not only 60+ points tactics, pal... you have to fix them all.
Otherwise, it would be unfair to other tacticians who followed the rules.
Let me know when you're done.
Nope, pal. I'm afraid it won't work that way.
You have to check every of your tested tactic and make sure all of them have proper screenshots. If it's needed you have to run tests again to add proper screenshots.
Only when you can confirm that all your tested tactics and non-tested tactics have proper screenshots we start test your new tactics again.
Let me know when you're done.
Cheers.
Tactical screenshots have been updated
@CSTG KANE, can you confirm that now all your tested tactics and non-tested tactics have proper screenshots?
An example:
- The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 1 may not make subs in-match or may make them quite late - for example in the 85th minute.
- The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 20 to make subs very quickly and in every game.
This again would have an effect on the results as a more rested player in the game would have their ability at full capacity while those who are tired would be -3/-5 in every attribute due to fatigue.
Only the game devs know for sure how "Use of Subs" attribute works, we can only guess about it.
Anyway, regardless of its working mechanic, it would be the same for every tactic tested so every tactic tested is effected by it at the same degree and we're comparing tactics here.
Hi,
Yes, the AI managers rotate their teams but the alternative players for every position have the same attributes, morale and conditions as the main players, the alternative players are just copies of the main players so it can be considered as "no rotations happens"
dzek said: 2. Within matches the AI managers and assistant managers (of user controlled teams) do players subs but the 'Use of Subs' attribute is different for each of them individually. Does this play a role in the sub strategy and in the results and if so, does this also affect the RNG?
Thank you!
Subs must happen and restricting them would have unpredictable consequences for the reliability of the results.
Hi,
Unfortunately, I don't think something like that would be possible.
Cheers.
@A Smile, @dzek, @letsgo9, thank you for your opinions and involvement in this situation, it's much appreciated.
@CSTG KANE, I see only one fair solution to this situation: you have to fix all the threads that have the same screenshots and add correct ones. Until then non of your tactics will be tested. Let me know when you're done.
Cheers.
Hi,
We dropped that feature because the demand for game saves was low and the cost of hosting them was too high.
But we still keep all the game saves in an offline storage and I can provide them by a request.
There seems to be some obvious changes from last year, such as high LOE + Low def line being the default option last year, but now everything is much higher + much higher.
Sorry if it's been asked before.
The last year TIs testing was more like an experiment and during the process it became clear that the way TIs work depends on formation/roles/duties/mentality and so on... other words, if something works well in one tactic then it isn't necessary also work well in other tactics.
The above means that if you want to test the TIs in a proper way then you have to test all possible combinations of TIs/Mentality/Formations/Roles/Duties. That would be something unrealizable to do. Also, add to it retesting with patches.
So, guys... no, TIs testing won't happen.