I also want to remind you that for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles Pace isn't highlighted attribute but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are highlighted attributes so the game tells us that Pace attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and can be ignored but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are one of the key attributes for the roles and should look at.
In the previous test we reduced the Pace attribute of the central midfielders from "13" to "5" and then we relocated the freed CA into Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique attributes increasing them from "14" to "17". Please note, the CA didn't change and it stayed the same 147CA and as we know reducing Pace and increasing Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique drastically decreased the result, the score dropped from "51" points to "36" points and G.D. dropped from "+3" to "-16", which is quite significant drop I'd say.
Now, let's try a bit different thing what if reduce the Decisions, which according to the game is one the most important attribute for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles, to some crazy low level like "5" and relocate the freed CA to Pace, Strength and Agility attributes, which according the game mean nothing for Mezzala.
So we're making the central midfielders to be "dumb" having only "5" Decisions when before they had "14"... obviously, this should have some tragic consequences for the result... right?
Default attributes ( 147CA )
Relocated Decision attribute ( 147CA )
Ouchh... another surprising result.
As you can see, reducing the Decisions attribute of the central midfielders to "5" from "14" didn't have any tragic consequences for the result, instead relocating Decisions into Pace, Agility and Strength actually greatly improved the result, the score has increased from 51 to 61 points and the G.D. has increased from +3 to +16.
So when you make your central midfielders to be "dumber" in exchange for speed and strength then it actually significantly improves the result even the game tells us that the opposite should happen...
As you can see Central Midfielders can play just fine even having "5" Decisions instead of "14" but if you reduced their Pace to "5" from "13" then the result drops drastically but the game tells us that Decisions is one of the key attribute almost for any Central Midfielder role but Pace can be ignored.
We've implemented a new algorithm for determining the number of matches to test tactics.
We find the new algorithm has an excellent balance between "testing speed" and "result accuracy".
I want to explain you in details how it works.
Every tactic should get 2 runs(800 matches) by default.
If after 2 runs a tactic hits 49 points or above, then it'll be given 1 additional run for total 3 runs(1,200 matches)
If after 3 runs(1,200 matches) a tactic hits 51 points or above and also manages to get in the Hall Of Fame or get a score that is no more than 1 point less than the score of its competitor in the Hall of Fame then it'll be given 7 additional runs for total 10 runs(10,000 matches). Please note, it might not happen instantly but don't worry, it'll happen at some point.
Here's a small example how it works. Let's imagine there's 4-2-3-1 with 53 pts in the Hall of Fame and after 3 runs(1,200 matches) your 4-2-3-1 got 52 pts, it means that your 4-2-3-1 is qualified to get 7 additional runs. As I already said, the 7 additional runs might not happen instantly but don't worry, it'll happen at some point.
Also, I want to add that some additional improvements that we made to our new tactic testing league greatly helped to reduce the RNG( almost by half) so the RNG of 3 runs(1,200 matches) on our new tactic testing league is no higher than -/+ 2 points from the avg. of 10 runs(10,000 matches), which means if after 3 runs (1,200 matches) a tactic hits 2 points less than its competitor in the Hall of Fame then it already won't be able to improve the score of its competitor even if it gets 10 runs, so not running it for additional runs in this case, help us not to waste the computing power of the testing server for noting.
I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
As you can see it uses 2 x Mezzalas and 1 x Defensive Midfielder:
Now, let's check which attributes the game highlights for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles
Mezzala
Defensive Midfielder
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
Now, the attributes of our midfielders look like this:
Ok, let's test the tactic with the adjusted attributes of the MCs and DM and see how it'll affect the result.
Ouchh... what an unpleasant surprise. The points dropped from 51 to 36 points and the G.D. from "+3" to "-16".
But how that's possible? We just followed to what the game was telling us, it clearly said that "Pace" attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles(it wasn't highlighted) but in reality reducing Pace attribute greatly worsen the result.
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
Zeyad said: Not sure I understand how can you know if for example "aggression" does not have a sufficient impact on the M.E without the attribute test itself? unless I am misunderstanding and it was tested and just not listed because its insignificant? Expand
I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E.
Zeyad said: @Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested? Expand
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
TommyToxic said: How did you determine the best formations for AI? Expand
by testing all of them?
mscottdm said: Excuse me , I know this isnt the correct forum , but I want to ask what is the difference of the 23.4.0 (N) patch compared to the 23.4.0 . I have searched on the web but I cant seem to find anything regarding this new update. Furthermore , the game itself hasnt downloaded any new patch . Once again, knowing that this is the wrong forum , but it seems to be the most active. Apologies for any incoveniences. Expand
(N) just indicates that it's been tested on our new tactic testing league.
23.4.0 is the latest patch and there's has been any other patch since.
Gracolas said: The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table. Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is) Expand
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
dzek said: @Zippo Can we have a saved game of the new test league? Expand I can only provide you with a game save at the end of a test - Game Save
Floppyaams said: will you share the attributes of this "elite" AI manager with us as well? I like creating AI managers in m save and just observe their career. Would be really fun to see how well they perform with the elte attributes. Expand
the bellow 2 the most OP formation for AI
But bear in mind, to be successful in real game the "Non Tactical" attributes of an AI manager should also be high but for a tactic testing league it isn't that important some we ignored many of them like, I'm talking about attributes like "Buying Players", "Negotiating", "Business" and some other.
TommyToxic said: Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions? Expand
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/. Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job. Expand
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
Probably, the first wave of test results on the new tactic testing league should pop up in the next couple of hours.
The delay occurred because we couldn't apply a fix that protects the AI managers from being sacked, it didn't happen often but still happened and added a negative impact on the accuracy of the testing but now it's been sorted out.
We've been doing internal tests on the updated testing league and the current top tactic "4123 Pressure Cooker" dropped about 9 points vs AI "Elite" Managers, the score decreased from 66 to 57.
When I say AI "Elite" Managers I mean the most successful AI tactical settings that we've tested so far.
I want to let you know that soon, there'll be some improvements to FM-Arena Tactic Testing League.
We've managed to adjust the league setting in such way that we forced AI Controlled Teams to play only vs Human Controlled Teams and Human Controlled Teams to play only vs AI controlled Teams, that adjustments prevent wasting computing power on calculation matches where AI Controlled Teams play vs AI Controlled Teams matches and that speeds up the testing process about 2-3 times , so we probably will be able to test the tactics in the Hall of Fame for 7,000 - 8,000 matches instead 2,000 - 4,000 marches as it happens now.
So the updated tactic testing league would look something like this:
AI Controlled Teams play only vs Human Controlled Teams:
Human Controlled Teams play only vs AI Controlled Teams:
So no more spending computing power on calculating matches where AI Controlled Teams plays vs AI Controlled Teams matches, which speeds up the testing process 2-3 times.
Also, there'll be other improvements, for example, at the moment we've gathered huge amount of data about which AI tactical settings work the best and we're gonna implement them so no more spending computing power on testing vs weak AI managers.
I'll remind you that in the previous test we took 2 x Mezzalas and Defensive Midfielder from this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
I also want to remind you that for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles Pace isn't highlighted attribute but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are highlighted attributes so the game tells us that Pace attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and can be ignored but Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique are one of the key attributes for the roles and should look at.
In the previous test we reduced the Pace attribute of the central midfielders from "13" to "5" and then we relocated the freed CA into Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique attributes increasing them from "14" to "17". Please note, the CA didn't change and it stayed the same 147CA and as we know reducing Pace and increasing Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique drastically decreased the result, the score dropped from "51" points to "36" points and G.D. dropped from "+3" to "-16", which is quite significant drop I'd say.
Now, let's try a bit different thing what if reduce the Decisions, which according to the game is one the most important attribute for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles, to some crazy low level like "5" and relocate the freed CA to Pace, Strength and Agility attributes, which according the game mean nothing for Mezzala.
So we're making the central midfielders to be "dumb" having only "5" Decisions when before they had "14"... obviously, this should have some tragic consequences for the result... right?
Default attributes ( 147CA )
Relocated Decision attribute ( 147CA )
Ouchh... another surprising result.
As you can see, reducing the Decisions attribute of the central midfielders to "5" from "14" didn't have any tragic consequences for the result, instead relocating Decisions into Pace, Agility and Strength actually greatly improved the result, the score has increased from 51 to 61 points and the G.D. has increased from +3 to +16.
So when you make your central midfielders to be "dumber" in exchange for speed and strength then it actually significantly improves the result even the game tells us that the opposite should happen...
As you can see Central Midfielders can play just fine even having "5" Decisions instead of "14" but if you reduced their Pace to "5" from "13" then the result drops drastically but the game tells us that Decisions is one of the key attribute almost for any Central Midfielder role but Pace can be ignored.
That's crazy right?
We've implemented a new algorithm for determining the number of matches to test tactics.
We find the new algorithm has an excellent balance between "testing speed" and "result accuracy".
I want to explain you in details how it works.
Every tactic should get 2 runs(800 matches) by default.
If after 2 runs a tactic hits 49 points or above, then it'll be given 1 additional run for total 3 runs(1,200 matches)
If after 3 runs(1,200 matches) a tactic hits 51 points or above and also manages to get in the Hall Of Fame or get a score that is no more than 1 point less than the score of its competitor in the Hall of Fame then it'll be given 7 additional runs for total 10 runs(10,000 matches). Please note, it might not happen instantly but don't worry, it'll happen at some point.
Here's a small example how it works. Let's imagine there's 4-2-3-1 with 53 pts in the Hall of Fame and after 3 runs(1,200 matches) your 4-2-3-1 got 52 pts, it means that your 4-2-3-1 is qualified to get 7 additional runs. As I already said, the 7 additional runs might not happen instantly but don't worry, it'll happen at some point.
Also, I want to add that some additional improvements that we made to our new tactic testing league greatly helped to reduce the RNG( almost by half) so the RNG of 3 runs(1,200 matches) on our new tactic testing league is no higher than -/+ 2 points from the avg. of 10 runs(10,000 matches), which means if after 3 runs (1,200 matches) a tactic hits 2 points less than its competitor in the Hall of Fame then it already won't be able to improve the score of its competitor even if it gets 10 runs, so not running it for additional runs in this case, help us not to waste the computing power of the testing server for noting.
Cheers.
I'm sure that everybody is aware that each role has highlighted attributes.
Almost every FM player zealously follow the highlighted attributes of the roles and that seems quite logical because why wouldn't you follow it? The game tells you what attributes are important for the roles... of course, you trust the game.
But let's test it.
For our test we take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
As you can see it uses 2 x Mezzalas and 1 x Defensive Midfielder:
Now, let's check which attributes the game highlights for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles
Mezzala
Defensive Midfielder
As it can be seen on the screenshots "Pace" attribute isn't highlighted for both roles.
So the game tells us "Pace" is nothing for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles and other attributes such as Decisions, Off The Ball, Technique and other are much more important and they are key attributes for the roles.
Ok, let's trust to the game and do what it suggests us to do, we reduce the Pace attribute to "5" and relocate the freed CA to other attributers Decisions, Off The Ball and Technique which according to the game, are the key attributes for the roles and much more important than the Pace attributes.
Please note, it's very important that after the relocation the CA hasn't changed it's stayed the same(147CA), we just relocated it from "Pace" attribute to Decisions, Off The Ball amd Technique attributes which according the game, are more important for the roles than "Pace" attribute.
Now, the attributes of our midfielders look like this:
Ok, let's test the tactic with the adjusted attributes of the MCs and DM and see how it'll affect the result.
Ouchh... what an unpleasant surprise. The points dropped from 51 to 36 points and the G.D. from "+3" to "-16".
But how that's possible? We just followed to what the game was telling us, it clearly said that "Pace" attribute isn't important for Mezzala and Defensive Midfielder roles(it wasn't highlighted) but in reality reducing Pace attribute greatly worsen the result.
I guess, now it should be clear that the star ratings of the roles and the highlighted attributes are not just useless but can be misleading.
We can only question why SI decided to design the game this way.
>>> Alos, look at the "Part 2" of the test <<<
I understand what you're saying and I agree with, probably some of the untested attributes is worth testing and we might consider to test them at some point in future.
But I want to add that for example, such attributes as "Aggression" and "Flair" are "free" attributes, which means they don't cost any CA and it's highly unlucky that "free" attributes make any game-changing difference in the M.E.
it's a standard 4-2-3-1
"C" doesn't have any special meaning
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
by testing all of them?
mscottdm said: Excuse me , I know this isnt the correct forum , but I want to ask what is the difference of the 23.4.0 (N) patch compared to the 23.4.0 . I have searched on the web but I cant seem to find anything regarding this new update. Furthermore , the game itself hasnt downloaded any new patch . Once again, knowing that this is the wrong forum , but it seems to be the most active. Apologies for any incoveniences.
(N) just indicates that it's been tested on our new tactic testing league.
23.4.0 is the latest patch and there's has been any other patch since.
Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is)
Ok, let's take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4983-4231-wide/
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
Default Attributes
Increased Attributes
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
I can only provide you with a game save at the end of a test - Game Save
Floppyaams said: will you share the attributes of this "elite" AI manager with us as well? I like creating AI managers in m save and just observe their career. Would be really fun to see how well they perform with the elte attributes.
the bellow 2 the most OP formation for AI
But bear in mind, to be successful in real game the "Non Tactical" attributes of an AI manager should also be high but for a tactic testing league it isn't that important some we ignored many of them like, I'm talking about attributes like "Buying Players", "Negotiating", "Business" and some other.
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
This time the 11 attributes will be increased only by just "+1" point instead "+2" as it was done in the previous test:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/.
Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job.
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
So let's make a test and see how it works.
We take 2 tactics:
433 toast rack - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak ) - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5123-structured-attack-4-2-3-1-tweak/
And increase the 11 following Attributes of each players in each Human Controlled team by "+2" points:
The most important ones ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
Also, it's very important to understand that the "Playing Position Rating" makes a significant difference too - https://fm-arena.com/table/19-playing-position-testing/
The delay occurred because we couldn't apply a fix that protects the AI managers from being sacked, it didn't happen often but still happened and added a negative impact on the accuracy of the testing but now it's been sorted out.
probably, it'll occur in 1-2 days
When I say AI "Elite" Managers I mean the most successful AI tactical settings that we've tested so far.
I want to let you know that soon, there'll be some improvements to FM-Arena Tactic Testing League.
We've managed to adjust the league setting in such way that we forced AI Controlled Teams to play only vs Human Controlled Teams and Human Controlled Teams to play only vs AI controlled Teams, that adjustments prevent wasting computing power on calculation matches where AI Controlled Teams play vs AI Controlled Teams matches and that speeds up the testing process about 2-3 times
So the updated tactic testing league would look something like this:
AI Controlled Teams play only vs Human Controlled Teams:
Human Controlled Teams play only vs AI Controlled Teams:
So no more spending computing power on calculating matches where AI Controlled Teams plays vs AI Controlled Teams matches, which speeds up the testing process 2-3 times.
Also, there'll be other improvements, for example, at the moment we've gathered huge amount of data about which AI tactical settings work the best and we're gonna implement them so no more spending computing power on testing vs weak AI managers.
I hope you like it!
Cheers.
Ok, both tactics have received 3 additional runs.
On Balanced Mentality ( 3,840 matches played ) - Download Game Saves - Balanced Mentality
On Cautious Mentality ( 3,840 matches played ) - Download Game Saves - Cautious Mentality
Balanced Mentality:
Played: 3,840 matches
Overall Points: 6,519 ( 64.5 pts avg. per 38 matches )
Home Points: 3,524
Away Points: 2,995
54% Home Points
46% Away Points
Cautious Mentality:
Played: 3,840 matches
Overall Points: 6,418 ( 63.5 pts avg. per 38 matches )
Home Points: 3,505
Away Points: 2,913
54% Home Points
46% Away Points
As it can be seen from the test above the Balanced Mentality gets more Overall Points and Away Points than the Cautious Mentality.