ZaZ said: Thanks, @crazyfmguy93@Grimlock. I managed to lead in the previous patches too, but got surpassed in less than a day both times. Seems like a pattern. Expand
Hehe... if you get surpassed then it'll be bad for you but good for us because if that happen we'll get a better tactic
Thanks! @ta2199 and @Mark helped a lot with feedback and suggestions. At least now @Magician will be more motivated than ever to bring an even stronger version of Phoenix.
Exsodya said: I'm playing on the Xbox. Could you please share tactic’s screenshots for me? Expand
Everything is in the first post, except set pieces. I will add set pieces later today.
jayZ said: is there new set pieces in that upload? Expand
Set pieces from 3.0 are the same from 2.1. If you want to use it with another tactic, you can download 3.0, go to set pieces and choose the option to save all routines.
ZaZ said: Set pieces from 3.0 are the same from 2.1. If you want to use it with another tactic, you can download 3.0, go to set pieces and choose the option to save all routines. Expand
okay thanks, I was down 1-0 first half changed from caution to offensiv and won 6-1
Agüero alone scored 56 goals in official matches. For reference, Messi "only" scored more than that 3 times in his career (58, 60 and 69). Imagine this with Liverpool.
What changes you guys do at start of games against a better team? Any changes? Any tactic instruction rotation from one game to another, so the AI do not hack your tactic?
ZaZ said: I wonder what is the worst team that this tactic would manage to win a top league or even the UCL in the first year, without any transfer. Expand
I finished 3rd with Benevento, no transfers. Its kinda leaky sometimes but great tactics !
infxamus said: can we change the DW to Wingers and then add the 'close down more' instruction? Expand
I tested with Winger without Close Down More and it was around the same thing. I'm not sure if Close Down More makes it better or worse, since it wasn't tested.
DeviAngel said: I finished 3rd with Benevento, no transfers. Its kinda leaky sometimes but great tactics ! Expand
When designing and testing the tactic, I tried to optimize goal difference by the end of season. I didn't look much to goals scored or goals conceded, but the difference between. That's why the set pieces sacrifice a bit of defense to get more counter attack opportunities, leaving some extra players advanced.
My advice is to switch to Cautious when you want to concede less and switch to Very Attacking when you want to score more.
Gpassosbh said: What changes you guys do at start of games against a better team? Any changes? Any tactic instruction rotation from one game to another, so the AI do not hack your tactic? Expand
Or you just play with the same tactic all season without any tweak???
Gpassosbh said: Or you just play with the same tactic all season without any tweak??? Expand
Sometimes I start with cautious mentality against stronger team. When those teams reach second half without winning, their players start to get nervous, meaning they play worse. Then I change back to positive in the second half, or even very attacking, and manage to win the match. I do that a lot and it works like a charm.
P.S: I just did that to win against Liverpool, with Leamington (a team that climbed from the lowest division). For reference, my entire team costs 1 million per year in wages, while a single player from Liverpool, like Alisson, costs 10 million euros per year. You can see a few of my players in the last page, to see how bad they are.
P.S.3: Just some screenshots of my current run. Spoiler First in wages is Manchester City, with 320M per year. First in sponsors is Manchester United, with 276M per year.
P.S.2: Added the following tips to the opening post: Spoiler
Against stronger teams, a good trick is to start the match with Cautious mentality, then change back to Positive or Very Attacking on the second half. It works because players from stronger teams crack down at half time when not winning, or get complacent when winning even by one goal. Then you can surprise them and snatch a win while their performance goes down. Against weaker teams, it's often better to just start with Very Attacking mentality. If you are also training Light Blue and Dark Blue, the change in mentality won't affect your tactical affinity.
I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
Egraam said: I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
City 107 points, Sevilla 99 points all cups.
Expand
Thank you for the suggestions. I'll test it here and see how it compares to Blue 3.0.
P.S.: I'll test separated the throw-ins from Phoenix, mark tighter to non defenders and wingers instead of defensive wingers (it was only tested long time ago so it might have changed this patch). Then I will come back with results to tell what worked and what didn't.
I am using this tactic and previous versions in this Fm 21, up to the current patch and always with great results.
My question or request for help, was to know what are the most important attributes for each position, I know you put the link behind but it will allways go to the tactics table, it will certainly be my stupidity, but how do I know what are the main attributes for each position?
And even if you end up not being able to answer, thank you very much for the incredible tactics.
I am using this tactic and previous versions in this Fm 21, up to the current patch and always with great results.
My question or request for help, was to know what are the most important attributes for each position, I know you put the link behind but it will allways go to the tactics table, it will certainly be my stupidity, but how do I know what are the main attributes for each position?
And even if you end up not being able to answer, thank you very much for the incredible tactics.
Cheers from Portugal. Expand
For all line positions, most important attributes are pace and acceleration. Agility and dribbling (except for central defenders) come next, but not as important as the other two. All other attributes have very little impact in performance, specially finishing, tackling, team work, work rate and first touch, which have negligible effect even in the positions that should need them.
The table that I linked tests the same tactic with 3 points reduced in a single attribute for all players. For example, reduce 3 in acceleration from all positions and see how much it affects the results. If you look at that table, you will see that acceleration and pace are in the very bottom, with 5.6 (7.0 was the base line). You will also see that position rating is not so important, but keeping morale high is very important (keep complimenting players!).
Egraam said: I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
City 107 points, Sevilla 99 points all cups.
Expand
Finished testing here, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't mean it's not better, just that for my method of testing, it didn't improve. Different methodologies give different outcomes, with the difference from fm-arena and fm-base being a big example of that.
I tested the suggestions individually, as well as all together (the version you posted).
ZaZ said: Finished testing here, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't mean it's not better, just that for my method of testing, it didn't improve. Different methodologies give different outcomes, with the difference from fm-arena and fm-base being a big example of that.
I tested the suggestions individually, as well as all together (the version you posted). Expand
Should have probably expected that, because the only thing that changed between those two tactics from 21.3 testing table and the current one are throw-ins, and Pheonix then was #1 and ZaZ - Blue was #2 while right now is the other way around. Could be because of the number of tests run and ZaZ - Blue was better all way long, but it's probably a proof that the Pheonix throw-ins aren't that much better.
I'll still be experimenting with throw-ins because it's probably one of the only parts of the tactic that can be improved, everything else is most likely as optimised as it could get. Congrats on an amazing tactic
Egraam said: Should have probably expected that, because the only thing that changed between those two tactics from 21.3 testing table and the current one are throw-ins, and Pheonix then was #1 and ZaZ - Blue was #2 while right now is the other way around. Could be because of the number of tests run and ZaZ - Blue was better all way long, but it's probably a proof that the Pheonix throw-ins aren't that much better.
I'll still be experimenting with throw-ins because it's probably one of the only parts of the tactic that can be improved, everything else is most likely as optimised as it could get. Congrats on an amazing tactic Expand
Thanks for the compliment. I tried a lot of changes in throw-ins and other set pieces, but it's really hard to optimize it after some point because the gains become too small to notice. The higher the score of a tactic, the hardest it is to increase anything. Maybe I ignored lots of improvements just because it was too similar and I decided to keep the old version.
About the difference between ZaZ and Phoenix, it might be what you said, but it might also be that Defensive Wingers work well against the shorter throw-ins, since they are defaulted to close down more. Before, the throw-ins where always in the box, so it didn't make much difference. If I was @Magician, I would try adding close down more to the wingers and see how it goes. (P.S.: I'll test it here and tell the results.)
Bravo @ZaZ #1
@ZaZ, gratz!
Thanks, @crazyfmguy93 @Grimlock. I managed to lead in the previous patches too, but got surpassed in less than a day both times. Seems like a pattern.
P.S.: Funny thing that this is just 2.1 renamed to 3.0. I couldn't improve it and kinda gave up.
ZaZ said: Thanks, @crazyfmguy93 @Grimlock. I managed to lead in the previous patches too, but got surpassed in less than a day both times. Seems like a pattern.
Hehe... if you get surpassed then it'll be bad for you but good for us because if that happen we'll get a better tactic
Yes.. Yes... I'm very cruel
Grimlock said: Hehe... if you get surpassed then it'll be bad for you but good for us because if that happen we'll get a better tactic
Yes.. Yes... I'm very cruel
Nah, you are completely right!
WOW... 7.2!
Poacher said: WOW... 7.2!
Best tactic of FM20 also got 7.2. Hopefully we can get even better in FM21!
A new leader! My congratulations!
I'm playing on the Xbox. Could you please share tactic’s screenshots for me?
And set pieces pls
Eric said: A new leader! My congratulations!
Thanks! @ta2199 and @Mark helped a lot with feedback and suggestions. At least now @Magician will be more motivated than ever to bring an even stronger version of Phoenix.
Exsodya said: I'm playing on the Xbox. Could you please share tactic’s screenshots for me?
Everything is in the first post, except set pieces. I will add set pieces later today.
P.S.: Added screenshots for set pieces, @Exsodya.
is there new set pieces in that upload?
jayZ said: is there new set pieces in that upload?
Set pieces from 3.0 are the same from 2.1. If you want to use it with another tactic, you can download 3.0, go to set pieces and choose the option to save all routines.
ZaZ said: Set pieces from 3.0 are the same from 2.1. If you want to use it with another tactic, you can download 3.0, go to set pieces and choose the option to save all routines.
okay thanks, I was down 1-0 first half changed from caution to offensiv and won 6-1
ZaZ - Blue 3.0 with Man City
Sandro said: ZaZ - Blue 3.0 with Man City
Agüero alone scored 56 goals in official matches. For reference, Messi "only" scored more than that 3 times in his career (58, 60 and 69). Imagine this with Liverpool.
Blue 3.0 and Dark Blue 3.0 is a great combo. I always use Dark Blue 3.0 when I need to score and it works like a charm.
I just did treble with Atletico Madrid.
Grimlock said: Blue 3.0 and Dark Blue 3.0 is a great combo. I always use Dark Blue 3.0 when I need to score and it works like a charm.
I just did treble with Atletico Madrid.
I wonder what is the worst team that this tactic would manage to win a top league or even the UCL in the first year, without any transfer.
What changes you guys do at start of games against a better team? Any changes?
Any tactic instruction rotation from one game to another, so the AI do not hack your tactic?
ZaZ said: I wonder what is the worst team that this tactic would manage to win a top league or even the UCL in the first year, without any transfer.
I finished 3rd with Benevento, no transfers. Its kinda leaky sometimes but great tactics !
can we change the DW to Wingers and then add the 'close down more' instruction?
infxamus said: can we change the DW to Wingers and then add the 'close down more' instruction?
I tested with Winger without Close Down More and it was around the same thing. I'm not sure if Close Down More makes it better or worse, since it wasn't tested.
DeviAngel said: I finished 3rd with Benevento, no transfers. Its kinda leaky sometimes but great tactics !
When designing and testing the tactic, I tried to optimize goal difference by the end of season. I didn't look much to goals scored or goals conceded, but the difference between. That's why the set pieces sacrifice a bit of defense to get more counter attack opportunities, leaving some extra players advanced.
My advice is to switch to Cautious when you want to concede less and switch to Very Attacking when you want to score more.
Gpassosbh said: What changes you guys do at start of games against a better team? Any changes?
Any tactic instruction rotation from one game to another, so the AI do not hack your tactic?
Or you just play with the same tactic all season without any tweak???
Gpassosbh said: Or you just play with the same tactic all season without any tweak???
Sometimes I start with cautious mentality against stronger team. When those teams reach second half without winning, their players start to get nervous, meaning they play worse. Then I change back to positive in the second half, or even very attacking, and manage to win the match. I do that a lot and it works like a charm.
P.S: I just did that to win against Liverpool, with Leamington (a team that climbed from the lowest division). For reference, my entire team costs 1 million per year in wages, while a single player from Liverpool, like Alisson, costs 10 million euros per year. You can see a few of my players in the last page, to see how bad they are.
P.S.3: Just some screenshots of my current run.
Spoiler
First in wages is Manchester City, with 320M per year. First in sponsors is Manchester United, with 276M per year.
P.S.2: Added the following tips to the opening post:
Spoiler Against stronger teams, a good trick is to start the match with Cautious mentality, then change back to Positive or Very Attacking on the second half. It works because players from stronger teams crack down at half time when not winning, or get complacent when winning even by one goal. Then you can surprise them and snatch a win while their performance goes down. Against weaker teams, it's often better to just start with Very Attacking mentality. If you are also training Light Blue and Dark Blue, the change in mentality won't affect your tactical affinity.
I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
City 107 points, Sevilla 99 points all cups.
Egraam said: I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
City 107 points, Sevilla 99 points all cups.
Thank you for the suggestions. I'll test it here and see how it compares to Blue 3.0.
P.S.: I'll test separated the throw-ins from Phoenix, mark tighter to non defenders and wingers instead of defensive wingers (it was only tested long time ago so it might have changed this patch). Then I will come back with results to tell what worked and what didn't.
@ZaZ congrats on the incredible tactic.
I am using this tactic and previous versions in this Fm 21, up to the current patch and always with great results.
My question or request for help, was to know what are the most important attributes for each position, I know you put the link behind but it will allways go to the tactics table, it will certainly be my stupidity, but how do I know what are the main attributes for each position?
And even if you end up not being able to answer, thank you very much for the incredible tactics.
Cheers from Portugal.
Mjh said: @ZaZ congrats on the incredible tactic.
I am using this tactic and previous versions in this Fm 21, up to the current patch and always with great results.
My question or request for help, was to know what are the most important attributes for each position, I know you put the link behind but it will allways go to the tactics table, it will certainly be my stupidity, but how do I know what are the main attributes for each position?
And even if you end up not being able to answer, thank you very much for the incredible tactics.
Cheers from Portugal.
For all line positions, most important attributes are pace and acceleration. Agility and dribbling (except for central defenders) come next, but not as important as the other two. All other attributes have very little impact in performance, specially finishing, tackling, team work, work rate and first touch, which have negligible effect even in the positions that should need them.
The table that I linked tests the same tactic with 3 points reduced in a single attribute for all players. For example, reduce 3 in acceleration from all positions and see how much it affects the results. If you look at that table, you will see that acceleration and pace are in the very bottom, with 5.6 (7.0 was the base line). You will also see that position rating is not so important, but keeping morale high is very important (keep complimenting players!).
Egraam said: I've been playing around with the tactic a bit and I've found throw-ins to be a bit of weakness - I haven't really gotten any chances created from throw-ins. I've also used Pheonix for a bit and I quite like it's throw-in setup so I've plugged it here. Also I think tight marking is still good, just not on defenders (that's why tight marking TI is not that effective in my opinion). So I've changed wingers to defensive wingers, and added tight marking on all non-defenders, effectively combining Blue 3.0 with Pheonix. Here are some results of this tweak but it still needs more testing, not sure yet if it's better than original Blue. I'll play with it in my own save now, and hopefully be able to share some more results soon.
City 107 points, Sevilla 99 points all cups.
Finished testing here, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't mean it's not better, just that for my method of testing, it didn't improve. Different methodologies give different outcomes, with the difference from fm-arena and fm-base being a big example of that.
I tested the suggestions individually, as well as all together (the version you posted).
ZaZ said: Finished testing here, but it didn't work for me. It doesn't mean it's not better, just that for my method of testing, it didn't improve. Different methodologies give different outcomes, with the difference from fm-arena and fm-base being a big example of that.
I tested the suggestions individually, as well as all together (the version you posted).
Should have probably expected that, because the only thing that changed between those two tactics from 21.3 testing table and the current one are throw-ins, and Pheonix then was #1 and ZaZ - Blue was #2 while right now is the other way around. Could be because of the number of tests run and ZaZ - Blue was better all way long, but it's probably a proof that the Pheonix throw-ins aren't that much better.
I'll still be experimenting with throw-ins because it's probably one of the only parts of the tactic that can be improved, everything else is most likely as optimised as it could get. Congrats on an amazing tactic
Egraam said: Should have probably expected that, because the only thing that changed between those two tactics from 21.3 testing table and the current one are throw-ins, and Pheonix then was #1 and ZaZ - Blue was #2 while right now is the other way around. Could be because of the number of tests run and ZaZ - Blue was better all way long, but it's probably a proof that the Pheonix throw-ins aren't that much better.
I'll still be experimenting with throw-ins because it's probably one of the only parts of the tactic that can be improved, everything else is most likely as optimised as it could get. Congrats on an amazing tactic
Thanks for the compliment. I tried a lot of changes in throw-ins and other set pieces, but it's really hard to optimize it after some point because the gains become too small to notice. The higher the score of a tactic, the hardest it is to increase anything. Maybe I ignored lots of improvements just because it was too similar and I decided to keep the old version.
About the difference between ZaZ and Phoenix, it might be what you said, but it might also be that Defensive Wingers work well against the shorter throw-ins, since they are defaulted to close down more. Before, the throw-ins where always in the box, so it didn't make much difference. If I was @Magician, I would try adding close down more to the wingers and see how it goes. (P.S.: I'll test it here and tell the results.)