We've done some interesting internal testing and it looks like Acceleration and Pace attributes are among the most important player attributes in FM21:
Of course, other player attributes are important too but changing Acceleration and Pace attributes makes the most difference in our testing.
For example, let's take Phoenix v3.0 tactic if you look at the table then its points per match is "2.114" but if we decrease the Acceleration and Pace attributes of the Shadow Strikers and Wingers by "3" points from "16" to "13" and re-test the tactic then we'll get the following results:
As you can see the points per match have dropped from "2.114" to "1.657".
If we also decrease the Acceleration and Pace attributes of the Inverted Wing-Backs by "3" points from "16" to "13" and re-test the tactic once more then we'll get the following results:
As you can see the points per match have dropped further from "1.657" to "1.467".
So decreasing the Acceleration and Pace attributes across the positions just only by "3" points has turned a winning tactic into a loser, the points per match have dropped from "2.114" to "1.467" (about 31% decrease).
No doubt, such information is very important and we're debating how to better represent something like that in the future.
I am not surprised since most goals from this formation happen from through balls, which require acceleration and speed both to score as well as preventing from opponent. By the same rule, other important stats should be off the ball and anticipation, as well as other attributes that would benefit a poacher.
ZaZ said: The only way to stop a player like that is with a defender with high dirtness. Expand
Actually, Dirtiness is a negative attribute.
The higher Dirtiness, the higher chances of seeing the player doing some bizarre stuff like punching his opponent or spitting on him or producing two footed tackle and so on... you really don't want having players with a high Dirtiness attribute in your team.
To catch a fast winger a defender must be just as fast as the winger and has high Work Rate, Aggression and Bravery attributes.
Zealot said: Actually, Dirtiness is a negative attribute.
The higher dirtiness, the higher chances of seeing the player doing some bizarre stuff like punching his opponent or spitting on him or producing two footed tackle and so on... you really don't want having players with high dirtiness in your team.
To catch a fast winger a defender must be just as fast as the winger and has high Work Rate, Aggression and Bravery attributes. Expand
I was joking, like "only way to stop is breaking his legs".
That moment when you realize finishing is useless. To be honest, I saw somewhere that strikers with low finishing perform better, because finishing has high weight and that means you can get more of other stats. The same for decision. However, I didn't expect finishing to make no difference at all.
P.S.: I look forward for stats like Determination, Aggression and Flair, which cost no points in CA
I didn't expect Off The Ball to be useless. For now, we can say lack of Acceleration and Pace have the worst effect, specially for defense (which means it is twice as important for defenders), while Dribble is the third more important stat. Finishing and Working Rate can be safely ignored, while Technique, Off The Ball and Strength are nearly as unimportant.
I look forward to see more. I am curious to know if Tackling or Marking are actually useful. I usually put lots of focus on Tackling. I am also looking forward for First Touch.
P.S.: Now that's a surprise, considering I have always ignored balance. It didn't affect GF so much, so I assume it's more important in defenders, as well as anticipation.
ZaZ said: Now that's a surprise, considering I have always ignored balance. It didn't affect GF so much, so I assume it's more important in defenders, as well as anticipation. Expand
Balance is an important attribute for attackers, especially, when they run with the ball and get tackled, high Balance attribute helps stay on their feet and prevents falling down when get tackled or challenged.
I see GF has dropped significantly from 2.6 to 2.4.
Pulsar said: SI might change the weights of the attributes for different FM versions so I'd suggest checking the actuality of the table for FM21 Expand
This is the official numbers from SI for FM21. You can check it via Pre-Game Editor
Food for thought on the testing by dropping a certain stat on the test to find how important that stat is. It maybe just important for that tactic maybe you will get a different result on a tactic that's not so reliant on pace and acceleration?
rego8 said: Food for thought on the testing by dropping a certain stat on the test to find how important that stat is. It maybe just important for that tactic maybe you will get a different result on a tactic that's not so reliant on pace and acceleration? Expand
All tactics with "Dribble Less" TI get about 2.0 - 3.0 rating in the testing so "Dribble Less" is a very poor approach to play in FM21, check the tactics bellow:
Also, you can check the top tactics and you'll find that they all use "Dribble More" approach so, obviously, "Dribble More" approach is the most effective way to play in FM21.
I can add that we've tried decreasing Acceleration and Pace attributes for different tactics and the result was almost the same.
We've tried decreasing Acceleration and Pace attributes for different tactics and the result was almost the same. Expand
I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI.
ZaZ said: I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI. Expand
Ohh, it doesn't stack? I always thought those instructions stacked. Will it be the same if I remove from PI and add to TI instead?
I'm not 100% sure about TI and PI not stacking - tackle harder and Get Stuck In should be the same thing, but if you have tackle harder on every player and then add Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity increases - it works the same the other way around, if you start removing tackle harder PI from tactic that has Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity decreases anyway.
Egraam said: I'm not 100% sure about TI and PI not stacking - tackle harder and Get Stuck In should be the same thing, but if you have tackle harder on every player and then add Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity increases - it works the same the other way around, if you start removing tackle harder PI from tactic that has Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity decreases anyway. Expand
I remember I removed both get stuck in and run at defense from Blue because they made no difference. All my players have both tackle harder and dribble more often, which might explain why it didn't change anything. However, I alread tested removing player instructions and adding only TIs, and it performed worse. Also, Light Blue has tackle harder PI with stay on feet TI and it concedes very few fouls. Does that mean TI have priority over PI? Or they actually stack in a weird way?
ZaZ said: I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI. Expand
Also, "Run At Defense" won't make much difference when you manage Barca, Liverpool, Man City or any other top club because anyway many attacking players in those teams already have "Runs With Ball Often" Player Trait so "Run At Defense", "Dribble More" or "Dribble Less" instructions won't make any difference for them.
Just look at the player traits of Messi, Salah and Mane
That's why any tactic works very well with such teams as Barca, Liverpool, Man City and so on, it's not only because the players in those teams have crazy attributes but that's also because many players in those teams have many preset "locked" tactical instructions in their player traits so that makes a poor tactic works good.
Pulsar said: Also, "Run At Defense" won't make much difference when you manage Barca, Liverpool, Man City or any other top club because anyway many attacking players in those teams already have "Runs With Ball Often" Player Trait so "Run At Defense", "Dribble More" or "Dribble Less" instructions won't make any difference for them.
Just look at the player traits of Messi, Salah and Mane
That's why any tactic works very well with such teams as Barca, Liverpool, Man City and so on, it's not only because the players in those teams have crazy attributes but that's also because many players in those teams have many preset "locked" tactical instructions in their player traits so that makes a poor tactic works good. Expand
More dribbling is better than less dribbling, but there is way more than that for a tactic.
Zealot said: if players don't need a more obvious attribute like Finishing for scoring then I wouldn't be surprised to know they don't need First Touch to score Expand
Reminds me of old Winning Eleven where you could put Roberto Carlos as striker just because he had maximum speed.
Hey, guys.
We've done some interesting internal testing and it looks like Acceleration and Pace attributes are among the most important player attributes in FM21:
https://fm-arena.com/table/9-player-attributes-importance/
Of course, other player attributes are important too but changing Acceleration and Pace attributes makes the most difference in our testing.
For example, let's take Phoenix v3.0 tactic if you look at the table then its points per match is "2.114" but if we decrease the Acceleration and Pace attributes of the Shadow Strikers and Wingers by "3" points from "16" to "13" and re-test the tactic then we'll get the following results:
As you can see the points per match have dropped from "2.114" to "1.657".
If we also decrease the Acceleration and Pace attributes of the Inverted Wing-Backs by "3" points from "16" to "13" and re-test the tactic once more then we'll get the following results:
As you can see the points per match have dropped further from "1.657" to "1.467".
So decreasing the Acceleration and Pace attributes across the positions just only by "3" points has turned a winning tactic into a loser, the points per match have dropped from "2.114" to "1.467" (about 31% decrease).
No doubt, such information is very important and we're debating how to better represent something like that in the future.
Top work!
Thanks, @Alexander.
Just look at the Salah and Mane attributes, they both have 18 Acceleration and 18 Pace
No wonder, Liverpool is the strongest team in FM21
Mbappe = Best player in the game
I am not surprised since most goals from this formation happen from through balls, which require acceleration and speed both to score as well as preventing from opponent. By the same rule, other important stats should be off the ball and anticipation, as well as other attributes that would benefit a poacher.
ZaZ said: I am not surprised since most goals from this formation happen from through balls.
I find super fast wingers are capable winning matches on thier own, just constantly penetrating inside the opposition box
Zippo said: I find super fast wingers are capable winning matches on thier own, just constantly penetrating inside the opposition box
The only way to stop a player like that is with a defender with high dirtness.
ZaZ said: The only way to stop a player like that is with a defender with high dirtness.
Actually, Dirtiness is a negative attribute.
The higher Dirtiness, the higher chances of seeing the player doing some bizarre stuff like punching his opponent or spitting on him or producing two footed tackle and so on... you really don't want having players with a high Dirtiness attribute in your team.
To catch a fast winger a defender must be just as fast as the winger and has high Work Rate, Aggression and Bravery attributes.
Zealot said: Actually, Dirtiness is a negative attribute.
The higher dirtiness, the higher chances of seeing the player doing some bizarre stuff like punching his opponent or spitting on him or producing two footed tackle and so on... you really don't want having players with high dirtiness in your team.
To catch a fast winger a defender must be just as fast as the winger and has high Work Rate, Aggression and Bravery attributes.
I was joking, like "only way to stop is breaking his legs".
ZaZ said: I was joking, like "only way to stop is breaking his legs".
Hehe, I wrote that just in case someone might literally interpreted your words
Really nice work @Alexander , congrats and thank you!
That moment when you realize finishing is useless. To be honest, I saw somewhere that strikers with low finishing perform better, because finishing has high weight and that means you can get more of other stats. The same for decision. However, I didn't expect finishing to make no difference at all.
P.S.: I look forward for stats like Determination, Aggression and Flair, which cost no points in CA
For reference, these are the weights for all attributes, for different positions
ZaZ said: For reference, these are the weights for all attributes, for different positions
SI might change the weights of the attributes for different FM versions so I'd suggest checking the actuality of the table for FM21
I didn't expect Off The Ball to be useless. For now, we can say lack of Acceleration and Pace have the worst effect, specially for defense (which means it is twice as important for defenders), while Dribble is the third more important stat. Finishing and Working Rate can be safely ignored, while Technique, Off The Ball and Strength are nearly as unimportant.
I look forward to see more. I am curious to know if Tackling or Marking are actually useful. I usually put lots of focus on Tackling. I am also looking forward for First Touch.
P.S.: Now that's a surprise, considering I have always ignored balance. It didn't affect GF so much, so I assume it's more important in defenders, as well as anticipation.
ZaZ said: Now that's a surprise, considering I have always ignored balance. It didn't affect GF so much, so I assume it's more important in defenders, as well as anticipation.
Balance is an important attribute for attackers, especially, when they run with the ball and get tackled, high Balance attribute helps stay on their feet and prevents falling down when get tackled or challenged.
I see GF has dropped significantly from 2.6 to 2.4.
The defense side has also decreased.
Pulsar said: SI might change the weights of the attributes for different FM versions so I'd suggest checking the actuality of the table for FM21
This is the official numbers from SI for FM21. You can check it via Pre-Game Editor
Food for thought on the testing by dropping a certain stat on the test to find how important that stat is. It maybe just important for that tactic maybe you will get a different result on a tactic that's not so reliant on pace and acceleration?
rego8 said: Food for thought on the testing by dropping a certain stat on the test to find how important that stat is. It maybe just important for that tactic maybe you will get a different result on a tactic that's not so reliant on pace and acceleration?
All tactics with "Dribble Less" TI get about 2.0 - 3.0 rating in the testing so "Dribble Less" is a very poor approach to play in FM21, check the tactics bellow:
https://fm-arena.com/tactic/615-pep-guardiola-s-barcelona-masterpiece-4-3-3/
https://fm-arena.com/tactic/618-4-2-3-1-road-to-glory-fm21-tiki-taka-tactics/
Also, you can check the top tactics and you'll find that they all use "Dribble More" approach so, obviously, "Dribble More" approach is the most effective way to play in FM21.
I can add that we've tried decreasing Acceleration and Pace attributes for different tactics and the result was almost the same.
Zippo said: All tactics with "Dribble Less" TI gest about 2.0 - 3.0 rating in the testing so "Dribble Less" is a very poor approach to play in FM21.
https://fm-arena.com/tactic/615-pep-guardiola-s-barcelona-masterpiece-4-3-3/
https://fm-arena.com/tactic/618-4-2-3-1-road-to-glory-fm21-tiki-taka-tactics/
We've tried decreasing Acceleration and Pace attributes for different tactics and the result was almost the same.
I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI.
ZaZ said: I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI.
Ohh, it doesn't stack? I always thought those instructions stacked. Will it be the same if I remove from PI and add to TI instead?
I'm not 100% sure about TI and PI not stacking - tackle harder and Get Stuck In should be the same thing, but if you have tackle harder on every player and then add Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity increases - it works the same the other way around, if you start removing tackle harder PI from tactic that has Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity decreases anyway.
Egraam said: I'm not 100% sure about TI and PI not stacking - tackle harder and Get Stuck In should be the same thing, but if you have tackle harder on every player and then add Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity increases - it works the same the other way around, if you start removing tackle harder PI from tactic that has Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity decreases anyway.
I remember I removed both get stuck in and run at defense from Blue because they made no difference. All my players have both tackle harder and dribble more often, which might explain why it didn't change anything. However, I alread tested removing player instructions and adding only TIs, and it performed worse. Also, Light Blue has tackle harder PI with stay on feet TI and it concedes very few fouls. Does that mean TI have priority over PI? Or they actually stack in a weird way?
ZaZ said: I wonder why Run at Defense doesn't make much difference. Judging by the results, now with Agility too, as well as Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling, it should be a super effective TI.
Also, "Run At Defense" won't make much difference when you manage Barca, Liverpool, Man City or any other top club because anyway many attacking players in those teams already have "Runs With Ball Often" Player Trait so "Run At Defense", "Dribble More" or "Dribble Less" instructions won't make any difference for them.
Just look at the player traits of Messi, Salah and Mane
That's why any tactic works very well with such teams as Barca, Liverpool, Man City and so on, it's not only because the players in those teams have crazy attributes but that's also because many players in those teams have many preset "locked" tactical instructions in their player traits so that makes a poor tactic works good.
Pulsar said: Also, "Run At Defense" won't make much difference when you manage Barca, Liverpool, Man City or any other top club because anyway many attacking players in those teams already have "Runs With Ball Often" Player Trait so "Run At Defense", "Dribble More" or "Dribble Less" instructions won't make any difference for them.
Just look at the player traits of Messi, Salah and Mane
That's why any tactic works very well with such teams as Barca, Liverpool, Man City and so on, it's not only because the players in those teams have crazy attributes but that's also because many players in those teams have many preset "locked" tactical instructions in their player traits so that makes a poor tactic works good.
More dribbling is better than less dribbling, but there is way more than that for a tactic.
ZaZ said: More dribbling is better than less dribbling, but there is way more than that for a tactic.
That's for sure. I'm just saying that many players in top teams have a lot of player traits which makes them play regardless of the tactic.
What the fuck? How come they score so much more with less first touch? I always thought it was a great attribute to have. =(
ZaZ said: What the fuck? How come they score so much more with less first touch? I always thought it was a great attribute to have. =(
if players don't need a more obvious attribute like Finishing for scoring then I wouldn't be surprised to know they don't need First Touch to score
Zealot said: if players don't need a more obvious attribute like Finishing for scoring then I wouldn't be surprised to know they don't need First Touch to score
Reminds me of old Winning Eleven where you could put Roberto Carlos as striker just because he had maximum speed.
@Zippo, will Bravery, Determination and Aggression be tested? I don't think they will change much, but two of them are free stats.