I think it’s a valid question though. I suspect given how much of a mess development of the game has been the last 2 years that promises of doing the women’s game properly were not fulfilled, and it’s just some different animations stuck on top of the same ME. But if I’m wrong then there should be differences in what tactics work. In particular physical differences have a large impact; in the women’s game pressing is a lot more effective, pass accuracy worse, less fouls, higher defensive lines, I could go on. Obviously these are not just random differences but based on different tactics being successful than in the men’s game.
Yarema said: Not sure how it's determined, probably some general growth pattern for the position. But those are not hard caps and with training you can go above what it says. Expand
The potential attributes in Genie Scout aren’t supposed to be accurate, they are just a roughly equal increase to each attribute until the potential cap is reached. So for example with a player with a lot of remaining growth you’ll see that most attributes increase by say 3 with a few at 4 or 2. It’s a bit more complicated that that because you have the 20 cap, attributes that don’t ever change, and attributes that don’t count towards CA, but roughly that’s what it does. So it isn’t factoring in the position, training or anything that would shift the balance of how you would optimize the growth. I take it as being a kind of worst case if the player hits his PA.
In past versions of FM I presume that you used players in the test league that were natural at their position. In FM26 are the players natural in both the in and out of possession positions if they differ? It would seem to be an important factor in interpreting the test results since in practice making the player natural in two positions requires a tradeoff in attributes if the CA is fixed. Or do you fix the attributes and allow the CA to be higher?
My point is that depending on how this is done it’s possible that that tactics with different in and out of possession positions could be either at an advantage or a disadvantage because the players attributes are better or worse than those in single position tactics. Of course it’s also possible that SI created a “fake” system in which attributes aren’t penalized for lack of knowledge of the OOP position. Any thoughts about testing this? Thanks.
Pun said: Thanks George for this amazing post! I got a couple questions.
1. I noticed you said that dirtiness is much worse than injury proneness, however in the genie scout rating file injury proneness's value is -47 while dirtiness is only -14. Why is that?
2. Where did you find the data for how much hidden attributes like pressure and professionalism affect performance so much? for pressure to be as important as 37% of pace seems really high to me so I was curious. Expand
I would be cautious in taking any single number as an absolute. Most things in FM are non linear so something like pressure may have a large effect if your whole team has a rating of 1, but having a couple of players with 7 or 8s and the rest 10+ will have only a small impact compared to every player at 15+ (which is impossible anyway). I don’t believe professionalism makes any difference in games, its good to have for your high PA players as they grow faster.
toiletfootball said: Been following this thread right from the start with a lot of interest and sometimes a lot of confusion. Thank you to @harvestgreen22 and everyone else who has contributed. I've settled on using what seems to be accepted as the meta wich is Quickness x 1 Attacking x 1 Match Practice x 1 and extra recovery using the exploit. I've seen good growth from my youngsters especially Acceleration and Pace as one would expect. I'm doing a youth only save and a lot of my squad are now fully developed. So, it got me thinking. Has anyone done any research or have any thoughts on preparing for matches and how training might improve the chance of winning for the next game? I've been using a version of the default 'big game prep' which includes attacking and defensive shadowplay, set pieces and team bonding. I'm finding in big champions league games in the latter knockout phase I just can't win. And this is often against teams who are not theoretically as strong as league opponents who I can beat easily. I suspect the game just won't let you win the UEFA Champions League as a smaller club for the first four of five seasons you're in it.(That old chestnut about scripted outcomes again). I have won it previously but it takes 7-10 years of struggle. At least that has been my experience across a number of different saves over the years. Any thoughts appreciated. Expand
Champions League is a knockout competition with the highest level of competition, so of course this will be the most difficult to win. If you have any players who don’t like big games, can’t handle pressure, are inconsistent, then this is the maximum test for them. I have never seen anything suggesting the game behaves in an unfair way. When your reputation is low you often have the advantage that better opponents will rotate players and be very aggressive. When your reputation is higher they play their best players and play more carefully at the back.
DarthTrone said: Going to repoint this up as a follow up idea has come to my head,
What if a rating of 19/20 is achieved and merely used for "special" occasions? This would mean that the rating balance would still be of that of a CDM, while only losing a 5% performance from them not being a natural 20/20
Would the CA lost from retraining a singular position not be offset by the substantial gains made by a CDM with striker esque stats. Expand
Additional positions start affecting the CA used at around 10 or 11 position rating (‘competent’) so you either get a massive hit to the ratings from the CA or from the positional ability. Theres no way to get around it, multiple positions will always make a player worse than he would be at a single position except if it’s just a left/right sided combo that doesn’t change weights.
Personally I don’t bother with training since you can only train the first team and they will gain mostly by playing time. Optimizing training was really useful for players from 15-18 when physicals could grow quickly but after that the player is either in the first team (with no role training and quickness individual trning) or loaned out so he continues to improve. The most I will do for the overall training is make a full day of rest after a game or add a bonding if the ass man doesn’t.
tam1236 said: In FM24 loaning is destroyed by SI and nearly unusable. For both sides (!). But actually free agents would be enough.
btw @Panneton0 if you read this thread You wouldnt ask this stupid (in this place) question. Expand
I never had any trouble loaning; in non-league you usually have to wait for the transfer deadline to pass for the big clubs so you will be the only choice for a loan.
Panneton0 said: Out of curiosity, anyone tested part-time training? Only having 6 slots (2 of them likely being a game) changes things. Not clear to me if the "unavailable" slots count as rest. Anyone tested the progress cap with that? Wondering how to boost a semi-pro team :P Expand
Doesn’t make sense to worry about it. Sign the best free agents and loans you can get at the start of each year. No young player is ever going to progress enough from training to get into your team, or to stay with the team as you get promoted.
Go to change the schedule. Click create new schedule Top left select an existing type of schedule Choose custom schedules Bottom of that is load schedule Load it, then select and save it. You'll then likely have to advance a day for it to "save" in the system Then you should be able to go back into the calendar select a custom schedule and your imported one will be there.
It's honestly way trickier than it used to be, but it's doable.
Deleting schedules works similarly so your custom schedule don't pile up. Expand
Two things about this. 1) it only works for the first team, SI confirms that general training is not under our control for u21, u18 etc. you can change individual training and intensity but no commitment yet that si brings back ability to edit general training. 2) sometimes advancing time isn’t enough, you may have to completely exit the game and restart it before the custom schedule shows up.
CryosFeron said: ok here is another interesting find: I thought/hoped that the passing skills made this big difference, but I wanted to be sure that it actually changed how the match engine behaves on the pitch. So I ran another experiment and this time I left every attribute unchanged and only increased PA and CA to 200 of every player. So basically nothing had changed except for PA and CA - and this was right before the match started so the attributes were 100% untouched. And guess what: I also won every match (reloaded 10 times) against this much stronger side that beat me every time before I made any changes in the first place. I guess this means two things:
1. The Match Engine isn't directly linked to each and every attribute - it seems that SI just skews the general match odds a little bit into the direction of the side it things should be stronger.
2. Things like passing and off the ball etc. do have an impact after all, since SI considers them to be so strong for certain positions assigns so much CA points towards it. So indirectly these attributes should have an impact on matches. Maybe not as strong as Pace but hey: winning every game that I previously lost is not a small change. Expand
If you increased the CA then the game is going to change to the attributes to match the new CA.
EvensenFM said: The tests I’ve seen show that the effects of consistency aren’t very large anyway if players have high morale.
Sorry for showing up late - but could you link to any of those tests?
FM Arena has attribute testing that is easy to find. Those attribute tests indicate that neither morale nor consistency is really all that meaningful over the long term. The attributes to focus on are pace and acceleration - and it's been that way for years.
Also — that old FMM Vibe post is not rooted in reality and really needs to stop being brought up in these discussions. It's a wild rumor written by some guy 13 years ago that has never shown up in testing and contradicts things we know about the match engine. It's amazing how a "trust me bro" post like that has stuck with people through all these years. Expand
What you are referring to as an “old FMM Vibe post” is originally from an SI dev on the official forums. That it still works this way is supported by recent tests.
I don’t think your characterization of morale and consistency in FMArena testing is correct. The idea that they aren’t meaningful is wrong and there are multiple posts about why that is. The tests also have nothing to do with “long term”. The link above shows the impact of both; as with many effects in FM the relationship is not linear so you can get most of the benefit without maxing out, but they do have an effect. In the long term the main thing to know about consistency is that it grows fast in high potential players. You can put a consistency 1 player in a good team and he will typically get to consistency 15 by the end of his career. So if you are in lower leagues and have limited ability to sign players it makes sense to pick on a few attributes like pace, acceleration; you won’t be keeping those players around long anyway. But at the top level you should factor in more attributes because there are only a limited number of world class players and a player with a bit less speed but much higher PA can be better (but also not be afraid to take low consistency players if they have massive potential).
Zippo said: No, of course not... we've been working hard on our testing DB to make it less and less representative of normal gameplay because at the end our goal is finding good tactics to play FIFA and PES and not FM.
Pfff... it would be ridiculous to assume that we've been updating our DB to make it better for finding good tactics to play FM! The less our DB represents normal gameplay, the better for us! Isn't it obvious?
I can only take a wild guess here... it could be that we want to keep the result of our hard work on learning the FM privately for ourselves? Yes, I know it's unbelievable selfishness but unfortunately, we're that evil. Once more, it's just my wild guess. Expand
His question may have been worded rather rudely, but do you think it’s helpful to reply like that? Why not just give a straightforward answer and if you need to be vague to protect your work then say that.
Personally I remove get stuck in from all tactics since I don’t believe it does anything if the players already have tackle harder. Then like Mark I ease off tackles for anyone getting yellows. It’s pretty rare for me to get more than one or two red cards per season. Getting a lot of yellows doesn’t bother me; sure I get some suspensions for accumulated yellows but I rotate a lot anyway so it’s just rearranging which games the player gets rested. I do have a pretty strict code of conduct ( it’s either the one recommended by ZaZ or a slight modification).
The potential attributes in Genie Scout aren’t supposed to be accurate, they are just a roughly equal increase to each attribute until the potential cap is reached. So for example with a player with a lot of remaining growth you’ll see that most attributes increase by say 3 with a few at 4 or 2. It’s a bit more complicated that that because you have the 20 cap, attributes that don’t ever change, and attributes that don’t count towards CA, but roughly that’s what it does. So it isn’t factoring in the position, training or anything that would shift the balance of how you would optimize the growth. I take it as being a kind of worst case if the player hits his PA.
My point is that depending on how this is done it’s possible that that tactics with different in and out of possession positions could be either at an advantage or a disadvantage because the players attributes are better or worse than those in single position tactics. Of course it’s also possible that SI created a “fake” system in which attributes aren’t penalized for lack of knowledge of the OOP position. Any thoughts about testing this? Thanks.
I got a couple questions.
1. I noticed you said that dirtiness is much worse than injury proneness, however in the genie scout rating file injury proneness's value is -47 while dirtiness is only -14. Why is that?
2. Where did you find the data for how much hidden attributes like pressure and professionalism affect performance so much? for pressure to be as important as 37% of pace seems really high to me so I was curious.
I would be cautious in taking any single number as an absolute. Most things in FM are non linear so something like pressure may have a large effect if your whole team has a rating of 1, but having a couple of players with 7 or 8s and the rest 10+ will have only a small impact compared to every player at 15+ (which is impossible anyway). I don’t believe professionalism makes any difference in games, its good to have for your high PA players as they grow faster.
Champions League is a knockout competition with the highest level of competition, so of course this will be the most difficult to win. If you have any players who don’t like big games, can’t handle pressure, are inconsistent, then this is the maximum test for them. I have never seen anything suggesting the game behaves in an unfair way. When your reputation is low you often have the advantage that better opponents will rotate players and be very aggressive. When your reputation is higher they play their best players and play more carefully at the back.
What if a rating of 19/20 is achieved and merely used for "special" occasions? This would mean that the rating balance would still be of that of a CDM, while only losing a 5% performance from them not being a natural 20/20
Would the CA lost from retraining a singular position not be offset by the substantial gains made by a CDM with striker esque stats.
Additional positions start affecting the CA used at around 10 or 11 position rating (‘competent’) so you either get a massive hit to the ratings from the CA or from the positional ability. Theres no way to get around it, multiple positions will always make a player worse than he would be at a single position except if it’s just a left/right sided combo that doesn’t change weights.
Is that going to do anything without also removing Get Stuck In ?
So true. I usually read it but only ever use it if the game is going badly. 90% of the time he wants me to attack down the left and use early crosses.
I took it as advice by the AssMan during the game
btw @Panneton0 if you read this thread You wouldnt ask this stupid (in this place) question.
I never had any trouble loaning; in non-league you usually have to wait for the transfer deadline to pass for the big clubs so you will be the only choice for a loan.
Doesn’t make sense to worry about it. Sign the best free agents and loans you can get at the start of each year. No young player is ever going to progress enough from training to get into your team, or to stay with the team as you get promoted.
Go to change the schedule.
Click create new schedule
Top left select an existing type of schedule
Choose custom schedules
Bottom of that is load schedule
Load it, then select and save it.
You'll then likely have to advance a day for it to "save" in the system
Then you should be able to go back into the calendar select a custom schedule and your imported one will be there.
It's honestly way trickier than it used to be, but it's doable.
Deleting schedules works similarly so your custom schedule don't pile up.
Two things about this. 1) it only works for the first team, SI confirms that general training is not under our control for u21, u18 etc. you can change individual training and intensity but no commitment yet that si brings back ability to edit general training. 2) sometimes advancing time isn’t enough, you may have to completely exit the game and restart it before the custom schedule shows up.
I thought/hoped that the passing skills made this big difference, but I wanted to be sure that it actually changed how the match engine behaves on the pitch. So I ran another experiment and this time I left every attribute unchanged and only increased PA and CA to 200 of every player. So basically nothing had changed except for PA and CA - and this was right before the match started so the attributes were 100% untouched. And guess what: I also won every match (reloaded 10 times) against this much stronger side that beat me every time before I made any changes in the first place. I guess this means two things:
1. The Match Engine isn't directly linked to each and every attribute - it seems that SI just skews the general match odds a little bit into the direction of the side it things should be stronger.
2. Things like passing and off the ball etc. do have an impact after all, since SI considers them to be so strong for certain positions assigns so much CA points towards it. So indirectly these attributes should have an impact on matches. Maybe not as strong as Pace but hey: winning every game that I previously lost is not a small change.
If you increased the CA then the game is going to change to the attributes to match the new CA.
Sorry for showing up late - but could you link to any of those tests?
FM Arena has attribute testing that is easy to find. Those attribute tests indicate that neither morale nor consistency is really all that meaningful over the long term. The attributes to focus on are pace and acceleration - and it's been that way for years.
Also — that old FMM Vibe post is not rooted in reality and really needs to stop being brought up in these discussions. It's a wild rumor written by some guy 13 years ago that has never shown up in testing and contradicts things we know about the match engine. It's amazing how a "trust me bro" post like that has stuck with people through all these years.
What you are referring to as an “old FMM Vibe post” is originally from an SI dev on the official forums. That it still works this way is supported by recent tests.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ECe0ygapG-8
I don’t think your characterization of morale and consistency in FMArena testing is correct. The idea that they aren’t meaningful is wrong and there are multiple posts about why that is. The tests also have nothing to do with “long term”. The link above shows the impact of both; as with many effects in FM the relationship is not linear so you can get most of the benefit without maxing out, but they do have an effect. In the long term the main thing to know about consistency is that it grows fast in high potential players. You can put a consistency 1 player in a good team and he will typically get to consistency 15 by the end of his career. So if you are in lower leagues and have limited ability to sign players it makes sense to pick on a few attributes like pace, acceleration; you won’t be keeping those players around long anyway. But at the top level you should factor in more attributes because there are only a limited number of world class players and a player with a bit less speed but much higher PA can be better (but also not be afraid to take low consistency players if they have massive potential).
Pfff... it would be ridiculous to assume that we've been updating our DB to make it better for finding good tactics to play FM! The less our DB represents normal gameplay, the better for us! Isn't it obvious?
I can only take a wild guess here... it could be that we want to keep the result of our hard work on learning the FM privately for ourselves? Yes, I know it's unbelievable selfishness but unfortunately, we're that evil. Once more, it's just my wild guess.
His question may have been worded rather rudely, but do you think it’s helpful to reply like that? Why not just give a straightforward answer and if you need to be vague to protect your work then say that.