Hello everyone! I'm cptdoggo, last year I created "Positive Tiki-Taka", a tactic many of you may have used. I stopped playing FM22 so much, but now I'm back and getting used to FM23 still.
I chose to start out with something that's not so present on the forum, specifically a 3 at the back formation. I've always been a fan of these, but unfortunately rarely ever got decent tactics for them last year. I think I got a decent 3-4-1-2 going in my testing league and I might give it a shot on a non-simulated save.
This tactic is heavily inspired by Gasperini's tactics at Atalanta. I don't want to bore you with the details, but the main points of this formation are the diamonds on the sides between the Wide CB's, Wing Backs, Midfielders and Attackers. This creates overloads on the wings and frees up space in other places of the pitch. In game it works as a very fluid counter-attacking high pressing formation, suitable for both top teams and underdogs.
Although this may seem like a very defending formation at first glance, do not be fooled, it is a very attacking and compact formation. Most of the goals will be created by the WB's crosses and long balls, who are a very important part of this tactic. The tactic is all about attracting the opposition to the sides of the pitch to free up space in the center and on the opposite side and launch deadly balls in behind the defenders when said space is created.
Below are my results after a season with the bottom 3 teams by media prediction in the Premier League, Forrest, Bournemouth and Fulham.
Nice, I love it, it is basically a 4-2-3-1 in this shape for whoever wants to use that specific formation, as it's one of the most popular. I would experiment with moving the F9 on the striker left position and the RPM in the defensive mid right position to balance out the assymetry a little.
Overall great tweak, I feel like this shape opens up for more future ideas of different fomations that work well than 4-1-2-3
Updated this tactic for 22.2 as I find it one of the most promising and it's a formation that a lot of people ask for.
Changelog: Eliminated overlapping as it doesn't work as intended. Eliminated "Run at Defence" Eliminated "Force Opposition Outside" Higher Defensive Line -> Normal Take Short Kicks -> Roll it Out Changed some Personal Instructions from original tactic
BiTeL33T said: I was just to ask this question when you posted this, if any admin could answer me would be great, since the test got harder (I think) what do you guess will be the highest score possible ? because I don't think we will be getting close to the 7´s from last year
at least in this match engine anyway Expand
Not an admin, but I think people are just taken aback by the difficulty of the testing league. It has gotten so much tougher with the improved opponents, so I think the 5.X from this year is equal to 6.X from last year or so. Currently my 5.3* Positive Tiki Taka tactic and @ZaZ Blue DM are winning leagues with mid table teams consistently, so I think that's clearly proof that the tactics are still good, just that the FM-Arena team has been constantly improving the Testing League and it has gotten a lot more exigent.
Belmorn said: @cptdoggo was thinking about this one and you thought of / tested with complete forward - support instead of f9 ? It does things pretty similar except should be scoring more ? Expand
Truthfully the F9 in this tactic was never meant to be played like an actual striker. Support CF, DLF, F9, PF these all could work, just dont use Poacher or AF
I made some tweaks after observing how the changes in the new ME work (at least how I think they do). I based this on my own former tactics as well, so you might see some similarities.
I am completely amazed at the results and hope it's as good as it seems from my tests. My former 5.5+ tactics never scored such a high PPM average out of 288 games, at least in my testing league, which I mentioned before (everyone locked at 15 on every attribute with everything else normalized and frozen to 100% cond and morale).
The main idea of this is based around a more balanced pressing game, not quite Klopp's older "Heavy Metal Football". This aims to maintain >50% possession when possible while also being aggressive and proactive in getting the ball back.
Back Line is same as Positive Tiki Taka, no reason to change that IMO.
Midfield is formed of DLP and BBM. You need a "Pivot" in the DLP role, that is someone who is very technical, and smart with the ball (good vision, mentals). BBM is pretty much just a workhorse, has to be good all around.
Attack is now formed of 3 AM's. AML and AMR are set to IF(A), pretty much like Positive Tiki Taka. AM(A) is now a key linking part of the attack, occupying that empty space right in front of the defence, kinda like a no. 10 role, or at least that's how I see it work in FM. All 3 of the AM's are set to mark tighter so that the pressing forward can press the free guy always with the other 3 being marked in case of a 4 at the back defence. Other than that, the PF acts like a normal striker, that's why he is set on Attack duty.
I am struggling this year with FM22 because when I am winning, the opposing teams seems to gain +20 to all attributes. Moreover, as you said, stamina drops so fast with attaccking and pressing mentality.
So, I would like to try your tactic. I am manager of Napoli, with Osimhen that is very good but not as F9..I will try to adapt him to the role. Lozano and Insigne could do a very good job as AF I hope.
Any hint for the defensive stats about 3 CC's? With 22.2 your suggestion is to use the base positive tiki taka version of your tactic? Thanks, Expand
Hey man, my suggestion is to use the base version as it clearly performs the best and AF was nerfed. People focus too much on that F9 position and the attributes suggested by the game. I used F9 purely because AM's work kinda bad this year and it's the closest thing you can get to a midfielder-striker kinda thing.
So, all in all:
- IF needs to be played by guys who you could play as an AF without much trouble, so pretty much strikers. You shouldn't use classic wingers on this role unless they have good composure and can score regularly. - F9 needs to be played by your most technical striker, keep the pacy guys for IF. If all your strikers are pacy, just put your most creative (passing, vision, mentals) as F9. This guy's job is to link up the IF cutting inside, not being the star of your goalscoring, even though he will end up scoring a lot himself. To give you an example of such a player, I think Lorenzo Insigne is the best option in your Napoli squad to fulfill this role, as he is a very creative, older player with pace that is not as good as it used to be, but amazing mentals and technique.
First of all, I am quite surprised my Positive Tiki Taka ended up first, I'm sure it won't hold here for long but it's nice to see anyhow, also very pleased with the low number of goals conceded.
Tejash said: @cptdoggo Can you please advise if any OI's, set pieces, player or preferred foot instructions? Expand
I don't use anything in terms of OI and preffered foot, the set pieces are built in the tactic.
brainbox said: Nice tactic, do you change the mentality for away days? Expand
I don't, this started out as my away tactic actually. I used to change to very attacking when chasing a goal but I don't think that will work in this patch.
Zass said: The original Positive Tiki Taka seems very robust to different testing methodologies? Expand
I think it does that because it doesn't have any FM-specific quirks included in it. It's just a tactic I cooked up with Barca F9 Messi in mind. Also I think what the tactic lost in terms of effectiveness like the other better ones did, it gained a lot in the tweaks to the IF and such.
We've collected a huge amount of data since the release of FM22 and it helped us to significantly improve our tactic testing league.
We analyzed the tactical settings of AI managers and determined which of them are most successful.
Here's an example how the tactical settings of AI managers look like ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ) :
We analyzed the formations across different leagues and determined the most successful of the them ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ):
We analyzed the roles and duties that the AI managers use and determined the most successful combinations ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ):
Belmorn said: Long shots better passes to do easy tap ins working much better vs a lot of sidenetting in previous verions Crosses being seem really strong ( and thus corners as well ) Mentality system broken - very attacking by default gives best results while it should be a last resort when behind only pretty much Youth development "tweaked" / bugged Horrible regen faces ( although this wont be fixed until fm 23 for sure ) some mental stats important on paper but tests indicating they are a lot less important then they "should" - too much emphasis on physicals imo
Honestly atm Im considering going back to my longterm save of fm21 until some of these issues are fixed tbh Expand
I've been playing this game for years and I have to disagree. This year is actually pretty good I'd say. Finally it feels a little challenging and yeah, crossing is a little OP but the game overall feels so much more realistic and pleasant to look at.
FMLover said: This is a great idea. I feel it gives a true representation of how a tactic works Expand
It's a pretty good test, it's a little more organic than Testing Leagues with normalized players, so naturally a little more RNG will happen, but I feel like it uses real players and showcases better in terms of goals scored, possession, while still being rather accurate because the teams are closely valued.
I think it is worth noting I started with playing career as Semi Pro Footballer and with National A License, you will see from the screenshot I`m studying for my Continental B license.
Played 35, won 33 and drawn 2. Lost 0 (Zero). Scored 120 Conceded 20.
Yes you might say it is PSG but I won my Champions League group winning all 6 against Atletico Madrid, Basiktas and Wolfsburg whilst also winning the 1st leg v Chelsea.
In January I got rid of the oldies excluding Wijnaldum and Messi (No one can afford his wages). I also sold Mbappe as he`d already signed a contract with another club.
All this is in the screenshots, take a look.
I think you should defo test this, I will report back when I finish the season. Expand
I think the score is fair. It's PSG dude, you don't need a good tactic to get the treble with PSG, as it's literally one of the best teams in the world. Tests using teams like Man Utd./PSG are extremely inconclusive. If you're predicted to be 1st, you'll be 1st with a mediocre tactic and even win the UCL with some luck.
ZaZ said: EOT probably works with Cyan because of low tempo. Expand
Yeah, seems like it. High tempo seems to suffer pretty hard from it. I still think you can get away with removing it from the Full Backs to save energy as they tend to get most reds and that probably negatively affects the results anyway, so by taking it away you lose some performance but gain some by them not getting red carded every 5 matches, if that makes sense.
I chose to start out with something that's not so present on the forum, specifically a 3 at the back formation. I've always been a fan of these, but unfortunately rarely ever got decent tactics for them last year. I think I got a decent 3-4-1-2 going in my testing league and I might give it a shot on a non-simulated save.
This tactic is heavily inspired by Gasperini's tactics at Atalanta. I don't want to bore you with the details, but the main points of this formation are the diamonds on the sides between the Wide CB's, Wing Backs, Midfielders and Attackers. This creates overloads on the wings and frees up space in other places of the pitch. In game it works as a very fluid counter-attacking high pressing formation, suitable for both top teams and underdogs.
Although this may seem like a very defending formation at first glance, do not be fooled, it is a very attacking and compact formation. Most of the goals will be created by the WB's crosses and long balls, who are a very important part of this tactic. The tactic is all about attracting the opposition to the sides of the pitch to free up space in the center and on the opposite side and launch deadly balls in behind the defenders when said space is created.
Below are my results after a season with the bottom 3 teams by media prediction in the Premier League, Forrest, Bournemouth and Fulham.
Overall great tweak, I feel like this shape opens up for more future ideas of different fomations that work well than 4-1-2-3
If you want anything from this thread was considered for the testing then please, format the thread like this - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/9585/
Thank you.
Done
If you want anything from this thread was considered for the testing then please, format the thread like this - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/9585/
Thank you.
Done
Changelog:
WB(A) -> FB(A)
VOL(A) -> CM(A)
RPM(S) -> DLP(S)
F9(S) -> AF(A)
CM(A) -> AM(A)
Tweaked team instructions
Tweaked some personal instructions.
Changelog:
Eliminated overlapping as it doesn't work as intended.
Eliminated "Run at Defence"
Eliminated "Force Opposition Outside"
Higher Defensive Line -> Normal
Take Short Kicks -> Roll it Out
Changed some Personal Instructions from original tactic
at least in this match engine anyway
Not an admin, but I think people are just taken aback by the difficulty of the testing league. It has gotten so much tougher with the improved opponents, so I think the 5.X from this year is equal to 6.X from last year or so. Currently my 5.3* Positive Tiki Taka tactic and @ZaZ Blue DM are winning leagues with mid table teams consistently, so I think that's clearly proof that the tactics are still good, just that the FM-Arena team has been constantly improving the Testing League and it has gotten a lot more exigent.
Truthfully the F9 in this tactic was never meant to be played like an actual striker. Support CF, DLF, F9, PF these all could work, just dont use Poacher or AF
Let me know how it works if you do decide to test it out. Hopefully this tactic serves you well.
Lot of tactics to be tested still as new patch just arrived, it will surely get tested, but I don't think OI's transfer to the testing league.
I am completely amazed at the results and hope it's as good as it seems from my tests. My former 5.5+ tactics never scored such a high PPM average out of 288 games, at least in my testing league, which I mentioned before (everyone locked at 15 on every attribute with everything else normalized and frozen to 100% cond and morale).
The main idea of this is based around a more balanced pressing game, not quite Klopp's older "Heavy Metal Football". This aims to maintain >50% possession when possible while also being aggressive and proactive in getting the ball back.
Back Line is same as Positive Tiki Taka, no reason to change that IMO.
Midfield is formed of DLP and BBM. You need a "Pivot" in the DLP role, that is someone who is very technical, and smart with the ball (good vision, mentals). BBM is pretty much just a workhorse, has to be good all around.
Attack is now formed of 3 AM's. AML and AMR are set to IF(A), pretty much like Positive Tiki Taka. AM(A) is now a key linking part of the attack, occupying that empty space right in front of the defence, kinda like a no. 10 role, or at least that's how I see it work in FM. All 3 of the AM's are set to mark tighter so that the pressing forward can press the free guy always with the other 3 being marked in case of a 4 at the back defence. Other than that, the PF acts like a normal striker, that's why he is set on Attack duty.
I am struggling this year with FM22 because when I am winning, the opposing teams seems to gain +20 to all attributes. Moreover, as you said, stamina drops so fast with attaccking and pressing mentality.
So, I would like to try your tactic.
I am manager of Napoli, with Osimhen that is very good but not as F9..I will try to adapt him to the role.
Lozano and Insigne could do a very good job as AF I hope.
Any hint for the defensive stats about 3 CC's?
With 22.2 your suggestion is to use the base positive tiki taka version of your tactic?
Thanks,
Hey man, my suggestion is to use the base version as it clearly performs the best and AF was nerfed. People focus too much on that F9 position and the attributes suggested by the game. I used F9 purely because AM's work kinda bad this year and it's the closest thing you can get to a midfielder-striker kinda thing.
So, all in all:
- IF needs to be played by guys who you could play as an AF without much trouble, so pretty much strikers. You shouldn't use classic wingers on this role unless they have good composure and can score regularly.
- F9 needs to be played by your most technical striker, keep the pacy guys for IF. If all your strikers are pacy, just put your most creative (passing, vision, mentals) as F9. This guy's job is to link up the IF cutting inside, not being the star of your goalscoring, even though he will end up scoring a lot himself. To give you an example of such a player, I think Lorenzo Insigne is the best option in your Napoli squad to fulfill this role, as he is a very creative, older player with pace that is not as good as it used to be, but amazing mentals and technique.
Tejash said: @cptdoggo Can you please advise if any OI's, set pieces, player or preferred foot instructions?
I don't use anything in terms of OI and preffered foot, the set pieces are built in the tactic.
brainbox said: Nice tactic, do you change the mentality for away days?
I don't, this started out as my away tactic actually. I used to change to very attacking when chasing a goal but I don't think that will work in this patch.
Zass said: The original Positive Tiki Taka seems very robust to different testing methodologies?
I think it does that because it doesn't have any FM-specific quirks included in it. It's just a tactic I cooked up with Barca F9 Messi in mind. Also I think what the tactic lost in terms of effectiveness like the other better ones did, it gained a lot in the tweaks to the IF and such.
We've collected a huge amount of data since the release of FM22 and it helped us to significantly improve our tactic testing league.
We analyzed the tactical settings of AI managers and determined which of them are most successful.
Here's an example how the tactical settings of AI managers look like ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ) :
We analyzed the formations across different leagues and determined the most successful of the them ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ):
We analyzed the roles and duties that the AI managers use and determined the most successful combinations ( it's just an example and there's nothing special in it ):
The attributes testing greatly helped us to understand how the attributes work in FM22 - https://fm-arena.com/table/13-fm22-attributes-ratings/
I can say that all that changes make a significant difference.
We haven't decided yet whether to start re-testing all the tactics for the current M.E. or wait for a new patch/M.E.
Tell us what you think we should do?
Cheers.
I think just re-test the 5.0+ or 5.5+ tactics, as I think the difference won't turn many lower tactics good.
passes to do easy tap ins working much better vs a lot of sidenetting in previous verions
Crosses being seem really strong ( and thus corners as well )
Mentality system broken - very attacking by default gives best results while it should be a last resort when behind only pretty much
Youth development "tweaked" / bugged
Horrible regen faces ( although this wont be fixed until fm 23 for sure )
some mental stats important on paper but tests indicating they are a lot less important then they "should" - too much emphasis on physicals imo
Honestly atm Im considering going back to my longterm save of fm21 until some of these issues are fixed tbh
I've been playing this game for years and I have to disagree. This year is actually pretty good I'd say. Finally it feels a little challenging and yeah, crossing is a little OP but the game overall feels so much more realistic and pleasant to look at.
It's a pretty good test, it's a little more organic than Testing Leagues with normalized players, so naturally a little more RNG will happen, but I feel like it uses real players and showcases better in terms of goals scored, possession, while still being rather accurate because the teams are closely valued.
I think it is worth noting I started with playing career as Semi Pro Footballer and with National A License, you will see from the screenshot I`m studying for my Continental B license.
Played 35, won 33 and drawn 2. Lost 0 (Zero). Scored 120 Conceded 20.
Yes you might say it is PSG but I won my Champions League group winning all 6 against Atletico Madrid, Basiktas and Wolfsburg whilst also winning the 1st leg v Chelsea.
In January I got rid of the oldies excluding Wijnaldum and Messi (No one can afford his wages). I also sold Mbappe as he`d already signed a contract with another club.
All this is in the screenshots, take a look.
I think you should defo test this, I will report back when I finish the season.
I think the score is fair. It's PSG dude, you don't need a good tactic to get the treble with PSG, as it's literally one of the best teams in the world. Tests using teams like Man Utd./PSG are extremely inconclusive. If you're predicted to be 1st, you'll be 1st with a mediocre tactic and even win the UCL with some luck.
Yeah, seems like it. High tempo seems to suffer pretty hard from it. I still think you can get away with removing it from the Full Backs to save energy as they tend to get most reds and that probably negatively affects the results anyway, so by taking it away you lose some performance but gain some by them not getting red carded every 5 matches, if that makes sense.