Zeyad said: @Zippo One more question on this, I noticed that in the attributes testing https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ not all the attributes in the game are there, even excluding the hidden ones (even though consistency is there) is that because the other ones were tested and were so irrelevant or just not tested? Expand
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
TommyToxic said: How did you determine the best formations for AI? Expand
by testing all of them?
mscottdm said: Excuse me , I know this isnt the correct forum , but I want to ask what is the difference of the 23.4.0 (N) patch compared to the 23.4.0 . I have searched on the web but I cant seem to find anything regarding this new update. Furthermore , the game itself hasnt downloaded any new patch . Once again, knowing that this is the wrong forum , but it seems to be the most active. Apologies for any incoveniences. Expand
(N) just indicates that it's been tested on our new tactic testing league.
23.4.0 is the latest patch and there's has been any other patch since.
Gracolas said: The tactics you choose are already good tactics accordingly to the table. Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is) Expand
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
dzek said: @Zippo Can we have a saved game of the new test league? Expand I can only provide you with a game save at the end of a test - Game Save
Floppyaams said: will you share the attributes of this "elite" AI manager with us as well? I like creating AI managers in m save and just observe their career. Would be really fun to see how well they perform with the elte attributes. Expand
the bellow 2 the most OP formation for AI
But bear in mind, to be successful in real game the "Non Tactical" attributes of an AI manager should also be high but for a tactic testing league it isn't that important some we ignored many of them like, I'm talking about attributes like "Buying Players", "Negotiating", "Business" and some other.
TommyToxic said: Do you think you will ever do the attribute testing for individual positions? Expand
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/. Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job. Expand
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
Probably, the first wave of test results on the new tactic testing league should pop up in the next couple of hours.
The delay occurred because we couldn't apply a fix that protects the AI managers from being sacked, it didn't happen often but still happened and added a negative impact on the accuracy of the testing but now it's been sorted out.
We've been doing internal tests on the updated testing league and the current top tactic "4123 Pressure Cooker" dropped about 9 points vs AI "Elite" Managers, the score decreased from 66 to 57.
When I say AI "Elite" Managers I mean the most successful AI tactical settings that we've tested so far.
I want to let you know that soon, there'll be some improvements to FM-Arena Tactic Testing League.
We've managed to adjust the league setting in such way that we forced AI Controlled Teams to play only vs Human Controlled Teams and Human Controlled Teams to play only vs AI controlled Teams, that adjustments prevent wasting computing power on calculation matches where AI Controlled Teams play vs AI Controlled Teams matches and that speeds up the testing process about 2-3 times , so we probably will be able to test the tactics in the Hall of Fame for 7,000 - 8,000 matches instead 2,000 - 4,000 marches as it happens now.
So the updated tactic testing league would look something like this:
AI Controlled Teams play only vs Human Controlled Teams:
Human Controlled Teams play only vs AI Controlled Teams:
So no more spending computing power on calculating matches where AI Controlled Teams plays vs AI Controlled Teams matches, which speeds up the testing process 2-3 times.
Also, there'll be other improvements, for example, at the moment we've gathered huge amount of data about which AI tactical settings work the best and we're gonna implement them so no more spending computing power on testing vs weak AI managers.
As can bee seen from the test above, FM is such RNG game that even if you test the same tactic for 5,760 matches then there still might be +/- 1-2 points RNG and not only the points fluctuate but also G.D./GF/GA fluctuate by 1-3 points too.
I just want to point out that there's always +/- 1-2 points "statistical noise" for every stat PTS/GD/GF/GA and that "statistical noise" can't be eliminated or say it can be eliminated but it requires testing for 20,000 or 50,000 matches or similar absurdly high amount of matches, which obviously, can't be consider as a feasible option.
So 1-2 points difference can't be considered as a reliable evidence and you can't safely conclude that one thing is better than other thing and I suggest considering such only in case if there's at least 3-4 points difference or more difference.
Most importantly, some changes like "GK(D) -> GK(S)" makes such a small difference that is less than the minimal RNG, which is at least 1-2 points so if you don't take that into consideration then you'll be sent in wrong directions by the RNG many times.
Once more, it's very important to understand that there's always 1-2 points RNG that can't be eliminated and many tactical changes make such a small difference that is less than the RNG. You should always take that into consideration otherwise very often you'll be sent in a wrong direction by the RNG.
We've decided to make adjustments to the tactic testing system.
From now on, it should look like this:
- Every tactic gets 2 rounds(640 matches) by default and if after 2 rounds it hits 58 points or above then it gets 1 additional round for total 3 rounds(960 matches).
- If after 3 rounds(960 matches) it hits 60 points or above and also manages to get a place in the "Hall Of Fame" then it gets another 3 additional rounds for total 6 rounds(1,920 matches).
- If after 6 rounds(1,920 matches) it still holds 60 points or above and it also holds a place in "Hall Of Fame" then it gets another 6 additional rounds for total 12 round(3,840 matches)
At some point in the future for some top tactics in the "Hall Of Fame" the 12 rounds(3,840 matches) might be extended to 18 rounds(5,760 matches).
it's a standard 4-2-3-1
"C" doesn't have any special meaning
We tested only those attributes that have a direct and sufficient impact on the M.E.
by testing all of them?
mscottdm said: Excuse me , I know this isnt the correct forum , but I want to ask what is the difference of the 23.4.0 (N) patch compared to the 23.4.0 . I have searched on the web but I cant seem to find anything regarding this new update. Furthermore , the game itself hasnt downloaded any new patch . Once again, knowing that this is the wrong forum , but it seems to be the most active. Apologies for any incoveniences.
(N) just indicates that it's been tested on our new tactic testing league.
23.4.0 is the latest patch and there's has been any other patch since.
Can you pick up the literally the worst tactic in the table and do the same test (increasing by +1 or +2 the most important attributes?
By all means, im not saying you're wrong. Just curious to know if the points vary so much with such a "bad" tactic (no offense here to the creator of whatever tactic there is)
Ok, let's take this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4983-4231-wide/
On the new testing league it got 34 points / -24 G.D., which about 20 point less than the top rated tactics.
And now let's boost the attributes of the players in the Human Controlled teams by increasing 11 of 29 the most important attributes( according to our attribute testing ) by "2" points:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
Default Attributes
Increased Attributes
As you can see the points have increased from 34 points to 70 points and the G.D. from -23 to +25 and it turned the Human Controlled team into into dominant winners from complete losers.
All that indicates that if in real game you use this tactic with such teams as Man City, PSG, Barcelona, Real Madrid and so on then you'll be winning matches almost as good as you would done that if you used any top rated(51+ points) tactic from our tactic testing.
People often overestimate the importance of the tactic and underestimate the importance of the players. They think that if they have a striker with 15 Acceleration and Pace then it's already good enough and they shouldn't look for a better striker with 16 or 17 or higher Acceleration and Pace because they think that won't make much difference but that's wrong thinking because it'll make a huge difference.
But the trick is that not all attribute makes such a big difference, for example, there'll be almost no difference between 10 and 20 Team Work for any position/role but if you look at the game this fact isn't obvious and the game doesn't explain it, but on the contrary - it confuses people with highlighted attributes for different roles and duties, creating impression that for example, Team Work attribute might be one the most important attributers for some position/roles/duties and Acceleration and Pace attributes aren't important at all and they can be overlooked, which is completely untrue.
I don't say that the tactic don't matter at all because if you look at our tactic testing then you'll see that some tactics got 55 points and some tactics got only 35 points, so under certain conditions one tactic can give you 20 points more than other tactic and it's a significant difference.
But it's important to understand that if you use one the top rated tactic(51+) and you aren't stratified with your result and you want to bring on the next level then tweaking your or changing it won't make any significant difference, at the best you improve your result +2-3 points but if you looking like for +20 or +30 points improvement then it can't be done without improving the most important attributed of your player, probably, by buying better players.
Also, there's another huge trap for FM players in the game. When you play with an underdog or midtable team the game RNG is very huge, your results can vary up to 20-30 points with the same tactic if we take 38 matches and that can be very misleading by creating impression that some tactics or tweaks work much better than other and it's when our tactic testing can help.
I can only provide you with a game save at the end of a test - Game Save
Floppyaams said: will you share the attributes of this "elite" AI manager with us as well? I like creating AI managers in m save and just observe their career. Would be really fun to see how well they perform with the elte attributes.
the bellow 2 the most OP formation for AI
But bear in mind, to be successful in real game the "Non Tactical" attributes of an AI manager should also be high but for a tactic testing league it isn't that important some we ignored many of them like, I'm talking about attributes like "Buying Players", "Negotiating", "Business" and some other.
Honestly, I don't believe it happens because it would required colossal efforts to do that but the reward isn't worth it, I mean it won't reveal any incredible insight into the attributes that we haven't found yet. I believe our attribute testing is already good enough to give an good insight into the attributes and something more than that will be "overkill".
This time the 11 attributes will be increased only by just "+1" point instead "+2" as it was done in the previous test:
The most important attributes from our test - ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see the result has increased immensely from 50 to 70 points, no way, such increase can't be achieved by tweaking the current best 15-20 tactics.
So our tactic testing clearly demonstrates if your tactic is already good(not perfect), but for some reason you want to perfect it, then you can spend hundred hours on testing trying thousand different tactical setups and for your efforts you'll be rewarded with about 2-3% ( 2-3 points ) boost to the result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your players just only by "1" point and you'll be rewarded with +40% ( 20 points ) boost to your result.
Or you can increase 11 of 29 the most important attributes of your player by "2" point and you'll be rewarded with +60% ( 30 points ) boost to your result.
I guess, now it should be obvious what is more important your tactic or the attributes of your players. Many people wrongly think that there's no difference when a player has "16" or "17" Acceleration but there's a huge difference in the performance between "16" and "17" Acceleration. Of course, that isn't true for every attribute and if you want to find out which attributes make the most difference then you can check this table - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
You mentioned 11 attributes but in the list are 10. There is no acceleration and jumping reach in the list too, which are in the top 3 according to https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/.
Did that happened in purpose or did you just forget to put these attributes in the list :P?
Thanks again and keep up the great job.
Yes, I just forgot to mention Acceleration(now, it's fixed) but it was increased too, as you said it one the most important attributes.
Jumping Reach attributes was ignored on purpose because it would give too much advantage and to the Human Controlled teams and as you can see it already was an insane in the performance even without having an advantage in Jumping Reach.
I've been noticing that when people don't get satisfying results with their tactics, then the first thing they do is trying to tweak or change their tactics, wrongly thinking that the tactic is the key element that determines the outcome of the matches. People often think that the reason why they don't get satisfying results with their tactics is that the tactic doesn't "fit" the team or they think that there's some "magic" and "undiscovered" tactic in the game that needs to be found and only it can bring a success to them.
But if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points. What does it mean? It means that if you aren't satisfied with the results you get and you want to improve them by tweaking or changing your tactic then doing so at the best will improve your results no more than 2-3 points... not a big difference I'd say.
Unfortunately, a lot of people get fooled by the game RNG, which can be very high, for example, if we take 38 matches ( a standard season length ) then your result might vary 20-30 points at the end of a season even when you use the same tactic, yup, it's that high, of course, if your team isn't the strongest team in the league. So when people hit a lucky RNG run then it creates impression then their tweaks or different tactics work and make a miracle but in reality if you test for a longer period like 4,000 matches then the difference will be like 2-3 points.
But if you really want to bring your results on the level and drastically improve them then the only way to do it is improving your players and what's is the most important to understand that not all attributes equally improve the result. There're some attributes that makes a huge difference and some attributes don't make a difference at all. You can check it here - https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/
So let's make a test and see how it works.
We take 2 tactics:
433 toast rack - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5015-433-toast-rack/
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak ) - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5123-structured-attack-4-2-3-1-tweak/
And increase the 11 following Attributes of each players in each Human Controlled team by "+2" points:
The most important ones ( https://fm-arena.com/table/18-attribute-testing/ )
- Acceleration
- Agility
- Balance
- Pace
- Strength
- Stamina
- Anticipation
- Concentration
- Work Rate
- Finishing
- Dribbling
433 toast rack
Structured Attack ( 4-2-3-1 Tweak )
As you can see increasing 11 attributes by +2 points improved the result by about +30 points ( 60% boost ), no way, such huge improvement can be achieved by tweaking or changing your tactic because as I said, look if you look at the results of our recent tactic testing then you'll see that there's about 15-20 different shapes at the top but the different between them is only about 2-3 points.
So if you want to bring your result on the next level then it can't be done without improving your players.
Also, it's very important to understand that the "Playing Position Rating" makes a significant difference too - https://fm-arena.com/table/19-playing-position-testing/
The delay occurred because we couldn't apply a fix that protects the AI managers from being sacked, it didn't happen often but still happened and added a negative impact on the accuracy of the testing but now it's been sorted out.
probably, it'll occur in 1-2 days
When I say AI "Elite" Managers I mean the most successful AI tactical settings that we've tested so far.
I want to let you know that soon, there'll be some improvements to FM-Arena Tactic Testing League.
We've managed to adjust the league setting in such way that we forced AI Controlled Teams to play only vs Human Controlled Teams and Human Controlled Teams to play only vs AI controlled Teams, that adjustments prevent wasting computing power on calculation matches where AI Controlled Teams play vs AI Controlled Teams matches and that speeds up the testing process about 2-3 times
So the updated tactic testing league would look something like this:
AI Controlled Teams play only vs Human Controlled Teams:
Human Controlled Teams play only vs AI Controlled Teams:
So no more spending computing power on calculating matches where AI Controlled Teams plays vs AI Controlled Teams matches, which speeds up the testing process 2-3 times.
Also, there'll be other improvements, for example, at the moment we've gathered huge amount of data about which AI tactical settings work the best and we're gonna implement them so no more spending computing power on testing vs weak AI managers.
I hope you like it!
Cheers.
Ok, both tactics have received 3 additional runs.
On Balanced Mentality ( 3,840 matches played ) - Download Game Saves - Balanced Mentality
On Cautious Mentality ( 3,840 matches played ) - Download Game Saves - Cautious Mentality
Balanced Mentality:
Played: 3,840 matches
Overall Points: 6,519 ( 64.5 pts avg. per 38 matches )
Home Points: 3,524
Away Points: 2,995
54% Home Points
46% Away Points
Cautious Mentality:
Played: 3,840 matches
Overall Points: 6,418 ( 63.5 pts avg. per 38 matches )
Home Points: 3,505
Away Points: 2,913
54% Home Points
46% Away Points
As it can be seen from the test above the Balanced Mentality gets more Overall Points and Away Points than the Cautious Mentality.
I think I can run this tactic on Cautious mentality - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4893-41212-99-pressure-ii/
and then compare the away matches on Cautious vs Balanced
Nope.
Since is same GD/GF/AG as https://fm-arena.com/thread/4654-4231-extreme-volts-xx-ifs-s-tweak/
Want to understand if GK on (su) or (D) doesn't really matter at this point.
Ok, I'll put it for a few more runs.
But I really want that people looked at the following test and learned one important thing about the FM RNG - https://fm-arena.com/thread/3578-sad-facts-about-fm-rng/
As can bee seen from the test above, FM is such RNG game that even if you test the same tactic for 5,760 matches then there still might be +/- 1-2 points RNG and not only the points fluctuate but also G.D./GF/GA fluctuate by 1-3 points too.
I just want to point out that there's always +/- 1-2 points "statistical noise" for every stat PTS/GD/GF/GA and that "statistical noise" can't be eliminated or say it can be eliminated but it requires testing for 20,000 or 50,000 matches or similar absurdly high amount of matches, which obviously, can't be consider as a feasible option.
So 1-2 points difference can't be considered as a reliable evidence and you can't safely conclude that one thing is better than other thing and I suggest considering such only in case if there's at least 3-4 points difference or more difference.
Most importantly, some changes like "GK(D) -> GK(S)" makes such a small difference that is less than the minimal RNG, which is at least 1-2 points so if you don't take that into consideration then you'll be sent in wrong directions by the RNG many times.
Once more, it's very important to understand that there's always 1-2 points RNG that can't be eliminated and many tactical changes make such a small difference that is less than the RNG. You should always take that into consideration otherwise very often you'll be sent in a wrong direction by the RNG.
We've decided to make adjustments to the tactic testing system.
From now on, it should look like this:
- Every tactic gets 2 rounds(640 matches) by default and if after 2 rounds it hits 58 points or above then it gets 1 additional round for total 3 rounds(960 matches).
- If after 3 rounds(960 matches) it hits 60 points or above and also manages to get a place in the "Hall Of Fame" then it gets another 3 additional rounds for total 6 rounds(1,920 matches).
- If after 6 rounds(1,920 matches) it still holds 60 points or above and it also holds a place in "Hall Of Fame" then it gets another 6 additional rounds for total 12 round(3,840 matches)
At some point in the future for some top tactics in the "Hall Of Fame" the 12 rounds(3,840 matches) might be extended to 18 rounds(5,760 matches).
Cheers.