Could you tell me how to effectively test tactics? Do you use your training with or without some modifications for match-buff training? Or maybe just let assistant manager do everything?
I'd like to minimize injury variance but also not give up some training advantage.
Thanks Expand
I have created a save file with only English teams, and set all players from the two top leagues to have maximum consistency and minimum injury proneness. Then I run tests with eight teams, one save with two teams from Premier League and two from Championship, and another similar with different teams, divided equally by season odds. After that, I do five runs for both saves, which gives a total of 1680 matches. After that, I do a rank test to define which variation of the tactic is the best.
I'm not complaining with your methods, just making a suggestion to improve FM-Arena overall. Also, keep in mind that saying you are making a joke usually rubs off the other way.
tom100000000000 said: Great idea. A lot of the front page is filled with spam. Users posting their tactic 10 times over, each with only the tiniest detail changed… Expand
I'm not saying brute testing doesn't work, there are some well known people that release ten tactics per day changing just some minor instruction, until one of them gives good results. All I am suggesting is to make the queue more fair for those that test things thoroughly before uploading here, using some very simple scheduling system like round robin. This system will not hurt much people that do brute testing, but will greatly benefit those that try to understand their tactics before posting.
Thanks for the words! I don't think it will stay on top too long, I think there is still space to break the 60+ mark, either by me or by others.
tom100000000000 said: I was just starting to think overlaps or underlaps were essential. Good job. Expand
This version has higher chance to succeed dribbling when compared to FM22, with more dribbles completed per match, and less accuracy on passes, with way more interceptions. Playing through the middle favors passing, while playing through the flanks favors dribbling. The results from top of table confirm that.
I would like to suggest organizing the queue for testing tactics as a round robin, where it sorts per author instead of per tactic. That way, each author gets a tactic tested once, unless there are no more tactics to be tested. This is to preventing some users from hoarding tactics with brute force and disrupting tests of others.
For example, let's say the queue has 3 tactics from user A, 10 from user B, 1 from user C and 1 from user D. The order of testing would then be: - User A - User B - User C - User D - User A - User B - User A - User B - User B - User B...
That means anyone that inserts a new tactic will not necessarily go to the end, but instead he will be the last player to be tested in the player queue. In the example above, if a User E added a new tactic, he would be the 5th to be tested (after one tactic of each player), instead of the 16th.
gameresq said: Season 5 with St Pauli and we finally put an end to a winning streak of 15 years of Bayern on Bundesliga and won! On the German Cup unfortunately we lost on the finals to Borussia by 2x0. And in the Champions we were eliminated by Inter on the penalties
Nebuuuu said: Wow, 54* on Fire 3.0. Congratz bro . You chose the more diffcult path for tactics this year. I really like your mindset of football, your tactics, so i´m still playing them with my Hertha BSC team.
So far, as a FootMan Veteran who invest alot of time to setup his team, training etc., i kinda have it more difficult too, to get the results (with your tactic) like i´m used to from the other FMs. BUT...i mean...come on..when the media expectation is place 13 and after 11 matches i´m place 1..its still f*cking superb.
Most goals, most matches without loss, most fouls (...), most chances, player with the most goals, assists..it´s complete "fine"..hehe*
So, i´ve tested only your Fire-Tactic since beginning and you could clearly see the Fire 2.4 was really on fire to some point. Then switched to Fire 2.5 which resulted in 2 draws + 1 lucky win in overtime vs 2nd league HSV at the german cup. It didn´t felt good even there wasn´t much changes + time should be too short to take a conclusion. After the switch to Fire 3.0, 5:1 vs Schalke.
But we will see what the future will bring to us, Hertha BSC. I can clearly see the weakpoint in my team. Pace, Striker (still), LW, CB - maybe even CAM.
tbh, i really don´t expect to be this high in the league table and would be super happy for an international qualification. Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig etc. are so damn good and after my next game vs Werder Bremen (a) i have to play vs the Monster Bayern.
Whatever...that`s just from me...i really love to play with your tactics, your communication vs Forum, Twitter and wish everyone here an superb happy, healthy coming new year. Let`s enjoy the football manager (and hope he will stepup his game with the next versons..) and be thankful for this great community, especially tactic-gods like ZaZ & Co.'
Thank you Expand
Thank you for your kind words!
What I am seeing in game is that RPM attracts passes to the middle, while the most effective way to play is through the flanks. As you can see in the post below, it is easier to dribble and easier to intercept balls in this match engine. https://twitter.com/ZaZFM/status/1588865343677960196
I will investigate on the issue to see how to improve that while keeping a bit of the gameplay I like to watch.
I just checked your Prometheus 2.4 and didn't found any difference with Soft&Wet.
So that's why I asked you what I was missing.
Probably, you uploaded a wrong tactic or something like that.
Or there's a difference and I just missed it.
Thanks. Expand
That's the problem of brute forcing, with so many people testing the same tactic with just one instruction changed. In the end, people can't spot the differences very easily, and we can't also tell where those changes came from (for crediting).
gameresq said: Third season with fire 2.0 not so good, unfortunately. A little my fault, I hired a striker with excellent attributes, but forgot to notice his "game tricks" (not sure how it is in english) which were very against the tactic (he didn't move into spaces and also went back to pick the ball). Once I hired another striker, we started a winning streak and even achieved Champions League quarter finals, eliminating PSG by 4-1. Unfortunately we lost to Liverpool, and didn't achieve UCL again. Bad results in the beginning and also bad results on the last few rounds. I'll try to sell the striker, hire some good defenders and wingers.
Expand
Thanks for testing the tactic, and I hope you do well next season!
The Beast said: Tried both zaz fire and zaz legacy and ended up getting sacked by January. Expand
Zippo said: OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.
This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.
So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.
If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate game with Branford and Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.
It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game. Expand
I haven't seen a tactic with good results using AML/R that run wide with the ball (like W-Su or W-At). I think they are weak in this version, just like IF was weak in FM22 before the patch that fixed their behavior.
Gotcha, is another match engine update expected soon? I can’t remember when 22.3 came last year Expand
I don't think it will be so soon, maybe in February. I just want to play some career without worrying with tests for a while so I can share gameplay tips with some people.
Anyway, what I have observed is that IWB is not getting as close to the box as in FM22. I am investigating if that is caused by a duo of DMs, or because I use Wingers instead of Inside Forwards. I will submit this last test to confirm it, then take a break.
tom100000000000 said: My most recent submission is also double VOL with IWB and I like the way it played but I was quite confused by the IWB positioning. Far fewer runs up the middle than I saw in fm22, which is why I selected overlaps instead of underlaps. Did you notice this too? I wonder if VOL position interferes and they prefer to go wider Expand
I will do one last test in this patch, switching IWB for WB, and W for IF, to see if that improves the tactic. If it doesn't, then I will wait for next patch before testing more.
Do you tailor your tactic to your player's strengths (without drastically changing the tactic) or stick to the tactic and find players who are a more natural fit? I've been doing the latter, but find it increasingly difficult as I recruit better and better players.
The follow-up question is whether learning more about tactics is worth the time investment. I understand most game mechanics pretty well at this point, but I've held off on messing with tactics because I know very little about soccer (see, I called it soccer). They seem like the most complicated part of this game by far.
Cheers! Expand
I would rather keep the tactic and shape the team around it. If you cannot find good players to certain position, then you can always retrain from other positions.
About learning about tactics, there is a bit of real life football that actually fits the game, but lots of things in the game do not match reality. You can commit time to that, but next year it can all become void once new engine is out.
Could you tell me how to effectively test tactics? Do you use your training with or without some modifications for match-buff training? Or maybe just let assistant manager do everything?
I'd like to minimize injury variance but also not give up some training advantage.
Thanks
I have created a save file with only English teams, and set all players from the two top leagues to have maximum consistency and minimum injury proneness. Then I run tests with eight teams, one save with two teams from Premier League and two from Championship, and another similar with different teams, divided equally by season odds. After that, I do five runs for both saves, which gives a total of 1680 matches. After that, I do a rank test to define which variation of the tactic is the best.
I'm not saying brute testing doesn't work, there are some well known people that release ten tactics per day changing just some minor instruction, until one of them gives good results. All I am suggesting is to make the queue more fair for those that test things thoroughly before uploading here, using some very simple scheduling system like round robin. This system will not hurt much people that do brute testing, but will greatly benefit those that try to understand their tactics before posting.
Congrats! Glad to know.
tom100000000000 said: I was just starting to think overlaps or underlaps were essential. Good job.
This version has higher chance to succeed dribbling when compared to FM22, with more dribbles completed per match, and less accuracy on passes, with way more interceptions. Playing through the middle favors passing, while playing through the flanks favors dribbling. The results from top of table confirm that.
For example, let's say the queue has 3 tactics from user A, 10 from user B, 1 from user C and 1 from user D. The order of testing would then be:
- User A
- User B
- User C
- User D
- User A
- User B
- User A
- User B
- User B
- User B...
That means anyone that inserts a new tactic will not necessarily go to the end, but instead he will be the last player to be tested in the player queue. In the example above, if a User E added a new tactic, he would be the 5th to be tested (after one tactic of each player), instead of the 16th.
On the German Cup unfortunately we lost on the finals to Borussia by 2x0. And in the Champions we were eliminated by Inter on the penalties
We also won the "Supercup" against Bayern by 2x1.
Good job there!
You chose the more diffcult path for tactics this year.
I really like your mindset of football, your tactics, so i´m still playing them with my Hertha BSC team.
So far, as a FootMan Veteran who invest alot of time to setup his team, training etc., i kinda have it more difficult too, to get the results (with your tactic) like i´m used to from the other FMs.
BUT...i mean...come on..when the media expectation is place 13 and after 11 matches i´m place 1..its still f*cking superb.
Most goals, most matches without loss, most fouls (...), most chances, player with the most goals, assists..it´s complete "fine"..hehe*
So, i´ve tested only your Fire-Tactic since beginning and you could clearly see the Fire 2.4 was really on fire to some point. Then switched to Fire 2.5 which resulted in 2 draws + 1 lucky win in overtime vs 2nd league HSV at the german cup.
It didn´t felt good even there wasn´t much changes + time should be too short to take a conclusion.
After the switch to Fire 3.0, 5:1 vs Schalke.
But we will see what the future will bring to us, Hertha BSC.
I can clearly see the weakpoint in my team. Pace, Striker (still), LW, CB - maybe even CAM.
tbh, i really don´t expect to be this high in the league table and would be super happy for an international qualification. Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig etc. are so damn good and after my next game vs Werder Bremen (a) i have to play vs the Monster Bayern.
Whatever...that`s just from me...i really love to play with your tactics, your communication vs Forum, Twitter and wish everyone here an superb happy, healthy coming new year.
Let`s enjoy the football manager (and hope he will stepup his game with the next versons..) and be thankful for this great community, especially tactic-gods like ZaZ & Co.'
Thank you
Thank you for your kind words!
What I am seeing in game is that RPM attracts passes to the middle, while the most effective way to play is through the flanks. As you can see in the post below, it is easier to dribble and easier to intercept balls in this match engine.
https://twitter.com/ZaZFM/status/1588865343677960196
I will investigate on the issue to see how to improve that while keeping a bit of the gameplay I like to watch.
I find the Download icon though i does not have a file.. ?
They changed the page, now you can see a big "Download" button on the top of this page, right above the picture of the tactic.
I really don't care who tweaked whose tactic.
I just checked your Prometheus 2.4 and didn't found any difference with Soft&Wet.
So that's why I asked you what I was missing.
Probably, you uploaded a wrong tactic or something like that.
Or there's a difference and I just missed it.
Thanks.
That's the problem of brute forcing, with so many people testing the same tactic with just one instruction changed. In the end, people can't spot the differences very easily, and we can't also tell where those changes came from (for crediting).
Thanks for testing the tactic, and I hope you do well next season!
The Beast said: Tried both zaz fire and zaz legacy and ended up getting sacked by January.
Sorry to hear that!
I think @Mark is the reference in that field, he might have something in this thread.
This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.
So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.
If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate game with Branford and Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.
It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game.
I haven't seen a tactic with good results using AML/R that run wide with the ball (like W-Su or W-At). I think they are weak in this version, just like IF was weak in FM22 before the patch that fixed their behavior.
Gotcha, is another match engine update expected soon? I can’t remember when 22.3 came last year
I don't think it will be so soon, maybe in February. I just want to play some career without worrying with tests for a while so I can share gameplay tips with some people.
Anyway, what I have observed is that IWB is not getting as close to the box as in FM22. I am investigating if that is caused by a duo of DMs, or because I use Wingers instead of Inside Forwards. I will submit this last test to confirm it, then take a break.
I will do one last test in this patch, switching IWB for WB, and W for IF, to see if that improves the tactic. If it doesn't, then I will wait for next patch before testing more.
Nice! I hope 2.5 is even better.
It's one of the options. You can also try other tactics with advanced wingers from the table.
Do you tailor your tactic to your player's strengths (without drastically changing the tactic) or stick to the tactic and find players who are a more natural fit? I've been doing the latter, but find it increasingly difficult as I recruit better and better players.
The follow-up question is whether learning more about tactics is worth the time investment. I understand most game mechanics pretty well at this point, but I've held off on messing with tactics because I know very little about soccer (see, I called it soccer). They seem like the most complicated part of this game by far.
Cheers!
I would rather keep the tactic and shape the team around it. If you cannot find good players to certain position, then you can always retrain from other positions.
About learning about tactics, there is a bit of real life football that actually fits the game, but lots of things in the game do not match reality. You can commit time to that, but next year it can all become void once new engine is out.
Can I ask why you haven't used counter press? 99% of tactics seem to use as a default.
It was tested here.