Gracolas said: I know im going to get a lot of hate here, but: gaming community is so toxic at the moment.. if companies put the effort to release updates every now and then, they get hated because it takes too long, if they dont release any update they also get hate because they dont care about the community, if they go on a weekly update system, they also get hate because they launched a unfinished product..
You guys are never happy Expand
I mean, aren't they doing the same they have been doing since forever? There is always one update every ~30-40 days, until the final version at 23.4, around February or March.
Floppyaams said: Amazing find. Now the problem is, how do we maintain our players' fatigue around that level. Especially in busy leagues such as the EPL. Expand
Floppyaams said: his point was that low fatigue is superior to fresh fatigue. So in theory, its better to have players conditioned rather than being completely fresh. Expand
It actually follows this kind of curve below. The peak, zero, is the exact point where it changes from "Fresh" to "Low", so the ideal is to stay in that point of balance.
For reference, Fresh goes from -500 to 0, while Low goes from 1 to 399. I didn't test the number 600, which is when it starts to show "Rst" icon ( "Fatigued" ), but I assume it reaches minimum performance around that value.
Anyway, I am still collecting more data to consolidate those results, as well as checking the changes in numbers caused by playing and training.
Lapidus said: I just want to stress once more that the "Match Expertise" level not only depends on "playing matches" but it also depends on "Training".
"No Training/Resting" = rapid declining of "Match Expertise" which might be a very negative thing.
Players by training not only improves their attributes but also build/keep their "Match Expertise" level.
When a player often "resting" then his "Match Expertise" drop much faster and even his CA might drop which to decreasing attributes.
So I'm trying to say that you need to very careful with "resting" thing. Yes, it might decrease "fatigue" but for what cost? Is it worth the cost? Expand
I am currently investigating the effects of fatigue, match sharpness, and condition, on performance, so I will have more to say once I have results here. That will set a good basis for the training schedule I will create, because it is good to know how much you gain while training, resting, or playing, for each of those.
Lapidus said: But don't forget when a players is resting and not training then his "Match Expertise/Sharpness" drops drastically which has a very negative impact on the performance.
So I think that's why "recovery" training session is always much beneficial than just "resting".
Any that's why you should be careful with "resting", yes, it reduces "fatigue" but the same time "Match Expertise/Sharpens" decreases faster. Expand
Yes, it is hard to optimize everything, as they are conflicting objectives. You need to play to increase sharpness, and need to rest to increase condition, while fatigue needs both to reach the point of equilibrium. And that is just for the physical aspect, but we should also try to increase player growth from training, and minimize injuries.
Delicious said: Ok after you mentionated the "fatigue", now all first XI went to Fatigue low ( but i didn't literally did nothing).
This is what i do :
- Rest first eleven for 1 day if i have 2-3 games in 1 week (i literally select them and rest them 1 day)
it's literally a tweak from cadoni2, this way i do believe i can keep the players condition(might be very wrong), otherwise i need to rest them for 2 days etc. I didn't check yours yet, but literally i am just worried about condition of the players. (usually i play with 11 core-players and 6-7 subs, all are wonderkids)
But if isn't the training, what's triggering the low "fatigue"? Just playing games? Expand
Players gain fatigue when they train and when they play. It is around 100-200 during a full match, from a scale of fatigue that goes from -500 to 1000. During training, it depends on intensity. Low fatigue is the range between 1 and 399.
I will test it thoroughly to see exactly how much it increases per training session and per match, and what attributes affect it, but that will take a while.
Steelwood said: That is what ZaZ has been using further up in this thread. My question regarding all of this is whether there is any improvement in attributes if it is only the fully fit players training Expand
Resting after matches will benefit the player in the long run. In short, playing increases attributes more than training, and resting to full allows them to be used more often. Also, training with lower condition increases the number of injuries, which hinder player growth.
Anyway, it is important to say that fatigue also affects injuries, and players with "low" fatigue get injured less than "fresh" players during matches. To be clear, when I say "low", I mean with the low indicator, which is higher fatigue than "fresh".
Delicious said: oh god, i always have my kids on fresh fatigue , but they perfom pretty good.
I need to check yours i guess, i am working around a tweak of cadoni's, and condition is pretty okay, but still if i don't rest them 1 day, they will start to collapse
Edit :
just checked on my first 11, 5 are low and 6 fresh... Expand
The difference on win rate is pretty massive. I will soon post a graph showing the win rate difference for different levels of fatigue.
bwig said: Interesting. You do always do instant results on your tests, right? I am on a longterm safe. Constantly do 100+ GD/season and ofc win everything. I play on extended 2D, used the training schedule of this guy copying AJAX youth system + senior squad plans. Now i swapped to yours and I get like 40-2 shots on target and can hardly win by 1 goal :O! How can we explain this? Squad is loaded and haven´t bought anyone - match familiarity 100% Expand
Nah, I usually play all the matches normally (only key moments). If you do 40-2 shots and cannot win, then you are just getting FMed.
letsgo9 said: I'm actually a football fitness coach/sports scientist, that's what looks like in terms of trainning intensity in real life, lol Not saying that works in the game, just spreading the roleplay haha Expand
I will do more experiments with training schedule later, after the results from fatigue. In short, players with "fresh" fatigue perform much worse than those with "low" fatigue (which perform much better than those getting fatigued or fatigued), which is how FM simulates the conditioning of muscles. The ideal training schedule should finish the pre-season with "low" fatigue, and keep it at that level during the whole season, so I will have to account fatigue gained during training, matches, and rotation.
Delicious said: I didn't saw that from the video, maybe i went blind, can you explain me how you guys setuped it? Because to me something seem off, i mean :
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future. Expand
Zeyad said: You can see whether the players are "low" or "fresh" if you add the fatigue column. However I still suspect there are degrees to "fresh" (for example from 1000 to 600) which also make a difference to the results and there is no way to know them without an external tool on the in game editor. Similar to condition Expand
I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM.
Zeyad said: Great work and sound discoveries backed by evidence and a lot of trials. I think Max should have mentioned the neutral and home venue trials conducted that you showed here Zaz would have added even more certainty and credibility.
Well done to both of you! Expand
I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season. (If anyone is interested, players have peak performance with low fatigue, playing worse when they are fresh or becoming fatigued, and even worst when they are fatigued.)
Delicious said: Interesting, for me there is something you guys should've considered :
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects! Expand
The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
letsgo9 said: Definitelly something to think about. But when actually playing games, mainly if u r a underdog team, balanced mentality seems way superior than attacking. Expand
Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results).
Using a more defensive tactic than your opponent, away from home, is detrimental to win rate. It is fine if you want to decrease the chance to concede goals, but it does not increase the chance of winning or scoring points overall. Check more about that in the video below.
Gracolas said: gotcha, but when games are scheduled, doesnt FM automatically puts some recovery sessions? I heard somewhere in Evidence based saying that its actually better to give Rest instead of recovery sessions, thats why im wondering Expand
I recommend setting the training after the matches are scheduled for the year, so it will only be changed for some specific matches (like later stages of cups). You don't need to worry about rest or recovery sessions, since players are already set to rest when tired. If the game add any of these sessions, you can just replace by match practice, or physical > attacking > defending (maximum of one physical per day).
Gracolas said: how does it look if you have 1 or 2 games a week? Expand
The schedule is set in a way that is effective during the entire year, including pre-season, weeks without matches, or weeks with three matches. Just set it up once a year and forget about it.
You guys are never happy
I mean, aren't they doing the same they have been doing since forever? There is always one update every ~30-40 days, until the final version at 23.4, around February or March.
That is what I will try to find out. =)
It actually follows this kind of curve below. The peak, zero, is the exact point where it changes from "Fresh" to "Low", so the ideal is to stay in that point of balance.
For reference, Fresh goes from -500 to 0, while Low goes from 1 to 399. I didn't test the number 600, which is when it starts to show "Rst" icon ( "Fatigued" ), but I assume it reaches minimum performance around that value.
Anyway, I am still collecting more data to consolidate those results, as well as checking the changes in numbers caused by playing and training.
"No Training/Resting" = rapid declining of "Match Expertise" which might be a very negative thing.
Players by training not only improves their attributes but also build/keep their "Match Expertise" level.
When a player often "resting" then his "Match Expertise" drop much faster and even his CA might drop which to decreasing attributes.
So I'm trying to say that you need to very careful with "resting" thing. Yes, it might decrease "fatigue" but for what cost? Is it worth the cost?
I am currently investigating the effects of fatigue, match sharpness, and condition, on performance, so I will have more to say once I have results here. That will set a good basis for the training schedule I will create, because it is good to know how much you gain while training, resting, or playing, for each of those.
So I think that's why "recovery" training session is always much beneficial than just "resting".
Any that's why you should be careful with "resting", yes, it reduces "fatigue" but the same time "Match Expertise/Sharpens" decreases faster.
Yes, it is hard to optimize everything, as they are conflicting objectives. You need to play to increase sharpness, and need to rest to increase condition, while fatigue needs both to reach the point of equilibrium. And that is just for the physical aspect, but we should also try to increase player growth from training, and minimize injuries.
This is what i do :
- Rest first eleven for 1 day if i have 2-3 games in 1 week (i literally select them and rest them 1 day)
it's literally a tweak from cadoni2, this way i do believe i can keep the players condition(might be very wrong), otherwise i need to rest them for 2 days etc. I didn't check yours yet, but literally i am just worried about condition of the players. (usually i play with 11 core-players and 6-7 subs, all are wonderkids)
But if isn't the training, what's triggering the low "fatigue"? Just playing games?
Players gain fatigue when they train and when they play. It is around 100-200 during a full match, from a scale of fatigue that goes from -500 to 1000. During training, it depends on intensity. Low fatigue is the range between 1 and 399.
I will test it thoroughly to see exactly how much it increases per training session and per match, and what attributes affect it, but that will take a while.
Steelwood said: That is what ZaZ has been using further up in this thread. My question regarding all of this is whether there is any improvement in attributes if it is only the fully fit players training
Resting after matches will benefit the player in the long run. In short, playing increases attributes more than training, and resting to full allows them to be used more often. Also, training with lower condition increases the number of injuries, which hinder player growth.
Anyway, it is important to say that fatigue also affects injuries, and players with "low" fatigue get injured less than "fresh" players during matches. To be clear, when I say "low", I mean with the low indicator, which is higher fatigue than "fresh".
Nice idea to test those tactics. =)
I need to check yours i guess, i am working around a tweak of cadoni's, and condition is pretty okay, but still if i don't rest them 1 day, they will start to collapse
Edit :
just checked on my first 11, 5 are low and 6 fresh...
The difference on win rate is pretty massive. I will soon post a graph showing the win rate difference for different levels of fatigue.
Yes, they still work fine. I don't think they changed much on training other than adding the new unified set pieces routine.
Nah, I usually play all the matches normally (only key moments). If you do 40-2 shots and cannot win, then you are just getting FMed.
letsgo9 said: I'm actually a football fitness coach/sports scientist, that's what looks like in terms of trainning intensity in real life, lol
Not saying that works in the game, just spreading the roleplay haha
I will do more experiments with training schedule later, after the results from fatigue. In short, players with "fresh" fatigue perform much worse than those with "low" fatigue (which perform much better than those getting fatigued or fatigued), which is how FM simulates the conditioning of muscles. The ideal training schedule should finish the pre-season with "low" fatigue, and keep it at that level during the whole season, so I will have to account fatigue gained during training, matches, and rotation.
Most PIs people use are already covered by "Run At Defense" and "Get Stuck In".
- did you simulated and reloeaded? (for 500times each_category) without freezing?
If you are after shape system is a thing, but mentalities play their role as well, i mean if you do that in a normal game scenario, in order to sustain a full attacking-gunho tactic you need to rest players for 2-3 days (exagerating), literally the players can't sustain it, i am getting difficulties playing balanced (talking about energies/condition), and i do use gun-ho when i want to score or all-in.
I was even tracking home and away results, and never happened that some tactics gave more then 1-3 more wins compared to others on away games, but that's was for FM23, i will redo that for FM25 i guess.
Btw let me know, ofc if you want, how the test was setuped, i might make some scripts for that in the future.
He explains at minute 2:55.
I usually add a column for fatigue in the squad view, but most people don't care much about it, because fatigue is an obscure feature of FM.
Well done to both of you!
I don't blame the guy, because my results were supposed to be just an extra to his video, and the main focus was about home advantage.
I'm now checking the influence of fatigue in performance, and I am surprised about how much it affects points per match. Keep in mind that fatigue goes from -500 to 1000, and you only see "Rst" when the hidden value is at 601+, so it is not uncommon for lots of people to play a good part of the season with high fatigue without knowing, which hinders their performance in late season. (If anyone is interested, players have peak performance with low fatigue, playing worse when they are fresh or becoming fatigued, and even worst when they are fatigued.)
When you compare 2 tactics, setup etc, i would even consider if 4222N counter 3421, like the results where altered because 4222 counter 3421 instance first of all.
Just trying to give you some thoughts to think about.
Hope it can helps for future projects!
The shape is irrelevant. We did run the same setup in both neutral and home grounds, so we could use neutral results for control. Below is a table showing rate of win, draw, lose, points per match, goals per match, and difference in points. You can clearly see that the tactics are evenly matched at neutral grounds, and the team playing at home always have the advantage. However, the defensive tactic is detrimental to performance when playing away from home.
Keep in mind that our concept of "defensive tactic" was not based on mentality, but goals conceded in FM-Arena table. We picked the highest goal scoring and goal conceded tactics in the top 10 (which changed after we started testing, but it doesn't matter much for the results).
I recommend setting the training after the matches are scheduled for the year, so it will only be changed for some specific matches (like later stages of cups). You don't need to worry about rest or recovery sessions, since players are already set to rest when tired. If the game add any of these sessions, you can just replace by match practice, or physical > attacking > defending (maximum of one physical per day).
The schedule is set in a way that is effective during the entire year, including pre-season, weeks without matches, or weeks with three matches. Just set it up once a year and forget about it.