opq said: y, it's definitely the case, like I've made mistake with uploading already and it's a cautious reminder for those who chase +1pts, that even on 1920 matches there's still RNG Expand
To be precise:
"433 A Whisper in the Wind" tactic got '54.585416666667' points
"433 Whisper in the Wind" tactic got '54.308333333333' points
So the difference is only '0.2774' points
Out testing server rounds the points to a whole number so '54.585416666667' was rounded to '55' and '54.308333333333' was rounded to '54'.
BUT such a small difference like "0.2774" points can't be guaranteed for each test and the RNG can be as high as "3 Points" even when you test a tactic for 1920 matches. Yes, the probability of such high RNG might be quite low, for example, it might be 3%, 5% or 10% but it's still possible.
crizeKOS said: This one has underlaps or overlaps? Fix it please, coz is leading ppl to think that underlaps with focus play on flanks is better. The tactics name diference is just an "A" @Zippo@Droid Expand
I think @Delicious accidently uploaded the same tactic twice or maybe there's some difference in the PIs, I don't know I haven't checked it.
Gracolas said: When i say good result im comparing with last FMs.. I think you agree with me that in past versions with a single tactic you could win everything, right? Expand
The previous FM versions had many tactical exploits such as corner exploits, long throw-ins exploits, strikerless exploits and so on, which weren't supposed to be in the game.
Using those exploits can be consider as "unfair" play so if you prefer playing "unfair" then this year you can scam save/load or use in-game editors.
Gracolas said: I think that a good result would be win everything with a team like PSG... Expand
By "win everything" you mean winning also CL? If so then he also have a great chance of winning CL, of course, it isn't 100% but the chances are high.
Just look at PSG in real life... does it has 100% chances of winning CL? Of course, it's not. Why then in the game it should be any different, of course, if we want the game to be realistic as possible.
Gracolas said: Also a good result would be picking up Angers or something like that and be league champion Expand
No, it would not be just a good result, it would be an incredible result.
Imagine, if in real life Angers won the French league, would you say it's just a good result? I don't think so. I bet you would call it a miracle.
ZaZ said: I haven't seen a tactic with good results using AML/R that run wide with the ball (like W-Su or W-At). I think they are weak in this version, just like IF was weak in FM22 before the patch that fixed their behavior. Expand
DawidFM said: Last year u only had 2/3 tactics that was working amazing in this game. this year there is no "OP" tactic. i tested 433/4231/442 and 352(from table on this site) and they are very inconsistent. i have my 4231 on WHU save and i'm 1st in the league without any loses (march) but on other save i'm fighting in mid table. Expand
OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.
This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.
So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.
If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate the game with Branford or Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.
It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game.
DawidFM said: worst thing this year is that all "Test" are big lottery. u can test the same tactic 20 times and it could have completely results. i tested my 4231 GOATed tactic 15 times and 3 times was unbeaten whole season, 10 times won the league and 2 times i was fighting for 4th place in the league. team and player stats was so diffrence that u can't find "best" tactic for u team. Expand
It's not only this year, it's been like that all the time.
FM is a game based on RNG to simulate the real life football.
Just look at the Liverpool in the real life, one season it wins the domestic league and CL but the next season it barely gets a CL spot.
If you want a more consistent result in FM then buy better players. In theory it's possible to make an invincible team.
Delicious said: I don't know but i find the vacation test uniliterally useless. The whole thing i did tried to explain and that some roles are working in different way from "processed" and "3D", that something i've read in tons of different places Expand
Unfortunately, the developers don't do good when it comes to communication with their fan base, obviously, there is lack of communication on their side and that creates a lot of myths about FM, and 99% of those myths is complete bullshit.
I suggest only trusting to official sources, or sources that confirms their information is from official sources.
Delicious said: i don't understand why some roles are test trough for example : Arena/vacation are giving different results if you play them in 3D. Expand You can compare the data that you get playing matches in 3D with the data that you get playing matches on 'Holiday' only if there's an equal amount of matches played.
I'd say the minimal amount of matches that can be taken into consideration is about 600 matches, I can't believe that someone can play 600 matches in 3D to test a tactic.
Delicious said: on "VACATION",you don't how the games are processed,i mean that's not even rocket science that something is different between gpu's games and 2D games and i won't even IMAGINE,what's happening on vacation Expand
There's really no difference when you play matches in 3D, 2D, Instant Result or Holiday modes, it uses the same M.E. to calculate the match.
When you watch a match in 3D or 2D mode, it's already been played, it doesn't play in real time as you might think, otherwise it wasn't possible to put comments.
You probably have noticed that when you watch a match in 3D match and make tactical changes then it takes few seconds to apply them and during that time the match is being replayed taking into account the changes you made.
For a good PC it takes only about 0.01 second to play a match and when you watch a match in 3D, it's been played already.
The above isn't my guess about how the game work, this information is from the developer who created the match engine.
You might ask where did I get it from, I can tell that information from my friends who participate in closed beta tests, they communicate directly to the game developers and what I told you isn't a secret information ( no DNA on it ).
Once more, the information above is 100% true, it received from the developer who stands behind the creation of the M.E. ( Match Engine )
Here's an another example, it could be that the only what "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs do is setting "Attack" duty for the full backs or adding "Get Further Forward" to them.
So if your full backs already have "Attack" duty and "Get Further Forward" PI then adding "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs won't have any effect.
opq said: Was it tested? Expand That's how official SI representatives explain the mechanics behind the TIs and PIs on the official forum.
opq said: So Tis set across all positions like that: Work ball into box = shoot less, get stuck = tackle harder, run at D = dribble more, and Be more expressive = roam? Expand In general, it works more or less as you described it.
But we can only guess what the TIs do, there's no information from an official source about it.
For example, 'Work Ball Into Box' TI might has the same effect as 'Shot Less' PI but it also might add 'Cross Less' affect, we really can't know it for sure because it's under the hood. Also, the TIs might work differently in different FM versions and even different patches.
opq said: Then it gives simple explanation, why so much PIs are messed up, and yeah it gives understanding of non-working PF, as almost every tactic is already with max press on on Tis Expand Not only PIs determine how a role plays, some roles have an unique playing style that just can't be recreated in other roles by simply adding similar PIs to them.
opq said: it's almost the way everyone uses AFs + close down, which in theory should be even greater, but... Expand
PIs modify the values set by TIs and if the values are already set at the maximum level by TIs then adding PIs that further increase the values won't have any effect because the values are already at the maximum level.
Also, adding some PIs have the same effect as adding some TIs so adding both won't have any effect.
Mark said: When I set players up with the attributes your before and after Striker has, the original has an RCA of 145 but the adjusted striker has an RCA around 130? Expand
Yes, that might be correct. I think when I checked the striker in our testing league he got few playing positions, for example, STC, AML, AMR, ML and so on. That's why his RCA was higher than for a pure striker.
what do you think about putting possession in the table of tested tactics? To make it easier to identify the style of play of each tactic, that is, if it is counter attack or possession etc.. Expand
We'd like to but unfortunately, we can't extract the possession number from the game.
But from my experience the most possession orient tactics in FM as usual gets a very low score in the testing, somewhere around 30-35 points.
Delicious said: Fast example, if i am getting 70 on Islam on my test league and i find a tactic/setup with the same amount of games,giving more and once i test here is giving me -3 of Islam we can understand pretty easy that something is wrong on my test league. Expand
Guys, if you want to know my opinion then I think you're too obsessed with getting micro improvements.
This year the FM developers have made sure that there aren't any set pieces exploits or any other tactical exploits ( like strikerless tactics and so on ) in the game. Also, they have greatly improved the AI tactics so when it comes to the tactics then a human player don't have any significant advantage over the AI.
This year the FM developers clearly say to us if you want to dominate in the game then stop looking for tactical exploits and just try to get the best players in the game (especially, those players who have crazy gamebreaking attributes ) and you'll be golden.
If your tactic gets at least 46 point in our testing then you already can stop improving it because it's already good enough to dominate the game.
You can spend months on improving your tactic to get 1-2 points better result in our testing or you can just get better players and improve your result by 40 points.
There are only 11 Natural(20) ML players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
There are only 16 Natural(20) MR players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
But
There are 154 Natural(20) AML players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
There are 183 Natural(20) AMR players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
So if your tactic uses ML and MR positions then most of the time it would required retraining players to play at ML and MR positions, which might take 1-3 seasons for them to get 'Natural'(20) rating at the positions.
So it comes out that if you're gonna use '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation in the normal game then finding 'Natural'(20) ML/MR players will be a huge headache. Taking into consideration that in our testing '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' gets only a tiny fraction better score than other formations then I would think twice before going for '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation in the normal game.
Just look almost all best players in the game are Natural(20) at AML or AMR or STC or AMC positions, which means it will be much easier to build your team for '4-2-3-1 DM' formation or '4-2-4 formation' than '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation and your results will be better with '4-2-3-1 DM' formation or '4-2-4 formation' than with '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation.
As people say "Don't hate the player hate the game".
FM is a quite random game and it also can be quite illogical, especially when it comes to the the tactics.
Our propose is to help people improving their tactic. I understand sometimes the result of our tests can be disappointing but it's really not our fault, we can't do nothing about how the game works.
and it's a cautious reminder for those who chase +1pts, that even on 1920 matches there's still RNG
To be precise:
"433 A Whisper in the Wind" tactic got '54.585416666667' points
"433 Whisper in the Wind" tactic got '54.308333333333' points
So the difference is only '0.2774' points
Out testing server rounds the points to a whole number so '54.585416666667' was rounded to '55' and '54.308333333333' was rounded to '54'.
BUT such a small difference like "0.2774" points can't be guaranteed for each test and the RNG can be as high as "3 Points" even when you test a tactic for 1920 matches. Yes, the probability of such high RNG might be quite low, for example, it might be 3%, 5% or 10% but it's still possible.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/2713-10-944-matches-tested-fm-rng-measured/
I think @Delicious accidently uploaded the same tactic twice or maybe there's some difference in the PIs, I don't know I haven't checked it.
https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3825-433-whisper-in-the-wind/
The previous FM versions had many tactical exploits such as corner exploits, long throw-ins exploits, strikerless exploits and so on, which weren't supposed to be in the game.
Using those exploits can be consider as "unfair" play so if you prefer playing "unfair" then this year you can scam save/load or use in-game editors.
By "win everything" you mean winning also CL? If so then he also have a great chance of winning CL, of course, it isn't 100% but the chances are high.
Just look at PSG in real life... does it has 100% chances of winning CL? Of course, it's not. Why then in the game it should be any different, of course, if we want the game to be realistic as possible.
Gracolas said: Also a good result would be picking up Angers or something like that and be league champion
No, it would not be just a good result, it would be an incredible result.
Imagine, if in real life Angers won the French league, would you say it's just a good result? I don't think so. I bet you would call it a miracle.
Just try using your Fire 2.0 with PSG and then report your result https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3639-zaz-fire-2-0/
I'm sure you'll win the league easily.
Wouldn't it be a good result? So what's the problem?
i tested 433/4231/442 and 352(from table on this site) and they are very inconsistent. i have my 4231 on WHU save and i'm 1st in the league without any loses (march) but on other save i'm fighting in mid table.
OP tactics become possible only if there are tactical exploits in the game.
This year the developers have made sure the game is free of tactical exploit.
So if you want to achieve consistent domination in the game then you must bring the best players in your team.
If you think there must be a tactic that would allow you dominate the game with Branford or Nottingham Forest then you have a wrong idea about the concept of FM, it isn't FIFA or PES.
It's possible to dominate this game using the worst tactic in the game.
It's not only this year, it's been like that all the time.
FM is a game based on RNG to simulate the real life football.
Just look at the Liverpool in the real life, one season it wins the domestic league and CL but the next season it barely gets a CL spot.
If you want a more consistent result in FM then buy better players. In theory it's possible to make an invincible team.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/
Unfortunately, the developers don't do good when it comes to communication with their fan base, obviously, there is lack of communication on their side and that creates a lot of myths about FM, and 99% of those myths is complete bullshit.
I suggest only trusting to official sources, or sources that confirms their information is from official sources.
Delicious said: i don't understand why some roles are test trough for example : Arena/vacation are giving different results if you play them in 3D.
You can compare the data that you get playing matches in 3D with the data that you get playing matches on 'Holiday' only if there's an equal amount of matches played.
I'd say the minimal amount of matches that can be taken into consideration is about 600 matches, I can't believe that someone can play 600 matches in 3D to test a tactic.
There's really no difference when you play matches in 3D, 2D, Instant Result or Holiday modes, it uses the same M.E. to calculate the match.
When you watch a match in 3D or 2D mode, it's already been played, it doesn't play in real time as you might think, otherwise it wasn't possible to put comments.
You probably have noticed that when you watch a match in 3D match and make tactical changes then it takes few seconds to apply them and during that time the match is being replayed taking into account the changes you made.
For a good PC it takes only about 0.01 second to play a match and when you watch a match in 3D, it's been played already.
The above isn't my guess about how the game work, this information is from the developer who created the match engine.
You might ask where did I get it from, I can tell that information from my friends who participate in closed beta tests, they communicate directly to the game developers and what I told you isn't a secret information ( no DNA on it ).
Once more, the information above is 100% true, it received from the developer who stands behind the creation of the M.E. ( Match Engine )
We test them and pick the best performing.
So if your full backs already have "Attack" duty and "Get Further Forward" PI then adding "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs won't have any effect.
That's how official SI representatives explain the mechanics behind the TIs and PIs on the official forum.
opq said: So Tis set across all positions like that: Work ball into box = shoot less, get stuck = tackle harder, run at D = dribble more, and Be more expressive = roam?
In general, it works more or less as you described it.
But we can only guess what the TIs do, there's no information from an official source about it.
For example, 'Work Ball Into Box' TI might has the same effect as 'Shot Less' PI but it also might add 'Cross Less' affect, we really can't know it for sure because it's under the hood. Also, the TIs might work differently in different FM versions and even different patches.
opq said: Then it gives simple explanation, why so much PIs are messed up, and yeah it gives understanding of non-working PF, as almost every tactic is already with max press on on Tis
Not only PIs determine how a role plays, some roles have an unique playing style that just can't be recreated in other roles by simply adding similar PIs to them.
PIs modify the values set by TIs and if the values are already set at the maximum level by TIs then adding PIs that further increase the values won't have any effect because the values are already at the maximum level.
Also, adding some PIs have the same effect as adding some TIs so adding both won't have any effect.
Yes, that might be correct. I think when I checked the striker in our testing league he got few playing positions, for example, STC, AML, AMR, ML and so on. That's why his RCA was higher than for a pure striker.
what do you think about putting possession in the table of tested tactics?
To make it easier to identify the style of play of each tactic, that is, if it is counter attack or possession etc..
We'd like to but unfortunately, we can't extract the possession number from the game.
But from my experience the most possession orient tactics in FM as usual gets a very low score in the testing, somewhere around 30-35 points.
No, it doesn't cause any problem for the "freezing".
Guys, if you want to know my opinion then I think you're too obsessed with getting micro improvements.
This year the FM developers have made sure that there aren't any set pieces exploits or any other tactical exploits ( like strikerless tactics and so on ) in the game. Also, they have greatly improved the AI tactics so when it comes to the tactics then a human player don't have any significant advantage over the AI.
This year the FM developers clearly say to us if you want to dominate in the game then stop looking for tactical exploits and just try to get the best players in the game (especially, those players who have crazy gamebreaking attributes ) and you'll be golden.
If your tactic gets at least 46 point in our testing then you already can stop improving it because it's already good enough to dominate the game.
You can spend months on improving your tactic to get 1-2 points better result in our testing or you can just get better players and improve your result by 40 points.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/
I really advise you to think about it because this year FM is much more about having better players than having a better tactic.
but if look at all players in the game then:
There are only 11 Natural(20) ML players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
There are only 16 Natural(20) MR players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
But
There are 154 Natural(20) AML players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
There are 183 Natural(20) AMR players with Acceleration and Pace above "16" in the game.
So if your tactic uses ML and MR positions then most of the time it would required retraining players to play at ML and MR positions, which might take 1-3 seasons for them to get 'Natural'(20) rating at the positions.
I'm noticing that '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation is very popular among our tacticians at the moment.
I guess the reason behind it is that in our tactic testing '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation gets a tiny fraction better score than any other formation.
But '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation uses ML and MR positions and this is a very important matter.
In our tactic testing league all Wingers and Inside Forwards are 'Natural'(20) at AML, AMR, ML and MR positions.
But let's look how things stand in the normal game.
If we take the best 9,296 players in the game:
785 players of 9,296 are 'Natural'(20) at AML position
710 players of 9,296 are 'Natural'(20) at AMR position
101 players of 9,296 are 'Natural'(20) at ML position
100 players of 9,296 are 'Natural'(20) at MR position
As you can see 'Natural'(20) MR/ML players are rare like unicorns.
If you wonder how it's important for a player to be 'Natural'(20) at the playing position then you can check our test - https://fm-arena.com/table/19-playing-position-testing/
So it comes out that if you're gonna use '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation in the normal game then finding 'Natural'(20) ML/MR players will be a huge headache. Taking into consideration that in our testing '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' gets only a tiny fraction better score than other formations then I would think twice before going for '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation in the normal game.
Just look almost all best players in the game are Natural(20) at AML or AMR or STC or AMC positions, which means it will be much easier to build your team for '4-2-3-1 DM' formation or '4-2-4 formation' than '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation and your results will be better with '4-2-3-1 DM' formation or '4-2-4 formation' than with '4-4-2 Wide Diamond' formation.
Just look how much difference the attributes can make - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/
The purpose of this post is to give people food for thought.
Cheers.
I'm going to shut up now
As people say "Don't hate the player hate the game".
FM is a quite random game and it also can be quite illogical, especially when it comes to the the tactics.
Our propose is to help people improving their tactic. I understand sometimes the result of our tests can be disappointing but it's really not our fault, we can't do nothing about how the game works.