Once more, Inverted Wing-Backs have a very unique behavior when "in possession" which can't be recreated in any other full back's role but to reveal that unique behavior a specific condition must be met and that specific condition is a free DM slot near them but if that condition isn't met then they as act as regular Wing-Backs with "Cut Inside" and "Stay Narrower" PIs so they're loosing their unique behavior.
So there's no point in testing Inverted Wing-Backs if there're 2 or more DMs present.
babemocni1988 said: I agree with that 100 % but this ME is unlogical and so many times you get results with some formations and roles that shouldn't be working together Expand I want to stress that what I said isn't my opinion about what should work and what not.
I was talking about the game code and Inverted Wing-Backs are coded the way that if there's no a free DM slot near them then Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cuts Inside" PIs, which means in that case there's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-backs.
I think there might be people who aren't not familiar with the way Inverted Wing-Backs work.
The main difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and other roles of full backs is that when "in possession" Inverted Wing-Backs act as central midfielders or central defensive midfielders, which means they take the position in the center like on the screenshot below:
But you need to be aware about one important thing about Inverted Wing-Backs: they act as regular Wing-Back if there're 2 or 3 Defensive Midfielders or there's a Defensive Midfielder on the side of Inverted Wing-Back
Here's a few examples when Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs:
If you want your Inverted Wing-Backs act as they should then there must be a free DM slot on their side:
If there're 3 central defenders in your tactic then Inverted Wing-Backs are also hard-coded to play as regular Wing-backs with "Cuts Inside" and "Stay Narrower" PIs:
So there's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-Backs when your tactic has 2/3 Defensive Midfielders or 3 Central Defenders because in this case Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cut Inside" PIs but in all other cases Inverted Wing-Backs have a completely different and unique behavior.
Please note, that what I said isn't my opinion about what should work and what not in the game. I was talking about how the game code works and Inverted Wing-Backs are coded the way that if there's no a free DM slot near them then Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cuts Inside" PIs, which means here's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-backs, they're loosing their unique behavior.
Of course, at some point we'll give this tactic and other top rated tactics an additional testing.
At this point the testing server is quite busy, there're some tactics from the previous patch await to be re-tested and also people post tactics for the new patch.
Tomaka said: Ah, should have uploaded the upgraded versions of my HoF tactics before patch then But ya, it's a good start, see which shape gets out on top Expand
As I said, we haven't decided yet what to do after we re-test all tactics from the Hall Of Fame.
I mean, should we then re-tested more tactics from the previous patch or should start testing only tactics that have been updated for the new patch. I guess, a lot will depend on the result of the re-testing. It'll reveal whether the patch has brought a lot of changes or not.
Middleweight165 said: @Zippo When choosing the attributes why did you eliminate Jumping Reach, Balance, Finishing from your list when these scored higher than others in the attribute testing? Obviously JR and Finishing are quiet position specfic but balance is generic?
I'm just interested, I have been using GS with Marks file, but I want to eliminate GS use now, so I'm going to try and focus on the method you have used here Expand
Yes, you're right that Jumping Reach and Finishing are quite position specific attributes and that's why I decided not to include them in the list but Balance is generic and could be included.
The reason why I didn't include Balance is because I wanted to keep the attribute list as short as possible so that's why I didn't include it as many other attributes that could included. Of course, when you play the game in normal way then paying attention to other attributes would beneficial and that's what you should do.
opq said: yeah, that's exactly what I see, so I have to select all players and use "position" OIs checkbox once, so they'll be implemented for all of them or you think it works behind the UI anyway and it just a confusing way to show in-match? Expand
As @Yarema said, by clicking the icons you aren't implementing anything, your're just changing between the views.
Btw, do you know that there are also "Personal" and "Position" PIs ( Player Instructions ).
It works the same way as it works with the OIs.
Every player can have his personal PIs that would apply only to him.
Just look it have the same icons and changing views style that you can see in the OIs.
opq said: Maybe this is just a UI bug, but when I have OIs being set on “positions” tab, then in match it’s a blank space. Expand You don't see "Position" OIs in a match because by default in a match it shows "Player" OIs and to see "Position" OIs you need to click on the icon that switches between "Player" OIs and "Position" OIs
This:
Or this:
Once more, there 2 types of OIs: "Player" OIs and "Position" OIs. Both types can be set in a match and outside of a match.
If you are in a match then the only way to switch between two types of OIs is clicking on the appropriate icons.
When you outside a match then setting "Position" OIs is also available in the "Position" tab:
It didn't make any difference when you have it On/Off for every position then what's the point in testing it On/Off for a single position or a few positions?
So here's my advice if you're gonna test different OIs to save your time I suggest testing them before On/Off for every position to see whether it make any difference or not.
Delicious said: Btw if you want we can test position OIs (no clue how to call them)after a while... I'll try to collect more data possible once the patch is released.
Thanks again for your vital support. Expand
To be honest, I don't think there's much to tests.
It's been tested already that the more "Press", the better. Every top rated tactic has it set on the highest possible level and the OIs can't set it above the limit.
It's been tested already that the highest level of the Tackles give the best result so the OIs can't set the it above the limit.
Back in FM22 I remeber we tested "Show Onto Weaker Foot" OIs with and w/o for every position and the difference was like 1 point.
It's been tested that "Tight Marking" ON/Off for every position and it didn't make any difference.
But I guess it's worth testing "Show Onto Weaker Foot" for FM23, there might be changes but honestly, not much hope.
Delicious said: For example there is a KDB playing as RPM/Regista on DM (Basically DM CM CM) and for that game i want to focus him as well.. those Player OIs overdrive Position OIs just for that game? Expand Unforutanlty, with that I can't help. I really don't know for sure whether the Player OIs take priory over the Position OIs or not.
For me, it would be logically if the Player OIs take priority over the Position OIs but as I said I'm not sure about that I think it's worth asking the devs on the official forum because only they can answer for sure on that question.
Or I guess to be sure you can set only 1 type of OIs at time.
Delicious said: Step 2 : As you can see there is nothing there. Expand
Here's another example.
Let's imagine you set OIs using "Player" OIs on Ivan Toney(Striker) but he got substituted early in the match which means the OIs you set on Ivan Toney won't be applied to the player who took his place.
To avoid that you can set OIs on the striker position instead of a player. So no matter who plays on the striker position will have the OIs you set.
Please, note I'm not saying that the second option is better and should be always used, I'm just saying that those 2 options are different things and have different purpose. Sometimes, you might want to use the 1st option and sometime the 2nd option.
Maybe it's not like importing but just showing what's going onto the position? Holy banana and i was doing it every game? Gonna check SI forum... that's made me really curious Expand
As I said, everything is very simple.
There're 2 ways of settings OIs:
1) "Players" menu - it allows you setting OIs on a specific player, which means this player can change his position during the next match but the OIs you set should "stick" to him regardless of the position his is playing in.
Here's a tooltip from the game:
This approach of setting OIs is quite time consuming and it requires doing before every match.
2) "Position" menu - it allows you setting OIs on a specific position instead of specific player. It can be set only once and it should apply against every opponent. No need to set it again before every match.
Delicious said: And how do i check if it's working because i am pretty sure that they did change this year and didn't make "automatically working" and you need select it every game but i might be wrong Expand It's been working like that since it was introduced. No changes to it this year.
Btw, if you have doubts about some game mechanics then I find the best way to clear the doubts is asking the devs on the official forum. They're really nice guys and will be glad to answer your questions.
Delicious said: If i don't preselect Trigger press from OIs is overwriting the TI or TI has always the most prioriy? Expand As far as I know OIs take priority over TIs and PIs, which means if your tactic doesn't have "Get Stuck In" TI and your players don't have "Tackle Harder" PI but your OIs tell your players to "Tackle Hard" every opposition player then you can expect seeing your players use "Tackle Harder" against every opposition player in matches.
Delicious said: Logically would be just fine to put "weak foot" seem the more logical but maybe ain't working this way as well. Expand Let's image that the right winger of your opponent has his right foot as he strongest foot and if you apply "Show Onto Weaker" foot OI to him then your players will try to block his way down the right flank and force him to "Cut Inside" from the flank.
You really need to be careful with that because most of time he'll be having a free way from the flank to the box as your player should block his way down the flank if his left foot isn't that bad, for example, he's got "Fairly Strong" rating for the left foot then he can easily exploit that free way to the box.
So as you can see it isn't that easy to decided whether to apply "Show Onto Weaker" OI or not.
Delicious said: but it's strange that once i click "select position" after selected all the players is importing them... am i missing something?
Beside that, if that's is working even tho you can't "see" that we can make more in-depth test about even which roles need tackle harder etc... Expand
Delicious said: Don't you need to select them every game? that's how i do that i do preselect on position and every game before game starting i do select all the enemy team and click on position so it put the ois in. If there is an option to make it automatically would be faster to test them, that's why i did ask how you did that Expand
There are 2 ways of setting OIs:
1) "Players" menu - it allows you setting the OIs specifically only against your next opponents. it resets before each match.
2) "Position" menu - it allows you setting the OIs against any opponent, it will apply against every opponent. It doesn't reset each time and you can set it only once and it should apply against each opponent.
So there's no point in testing Inverted Wing-Backs if there're 2 or more DMs present.
I want to stress that what I said isn't my opinion about what should work and what not.
I was talking about the game code and Inverted Wing-Backs are coded the way that if there's no a free DM slot near them then Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cuts Inside" PIs, which means in that case there's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-backs.
I think there might be people who aren't not familiar with the way Inverted Wing-Backs work.
The main difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and other roles of full backs is that when "in possession" Inverted Wing-Backs act as central midfielders or central defensive midfielders, which means they take the position in the center like on the screenshot below:
But you need to be aware about one important thing about Inverted Wing-Backs: they act as regular Wing-Back if there're 2 or 3 Defensive Midfielders or there's a Defensive Midfielder on the side of Inverted Wing-Back
Here's a few examples when Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs:
If you want your Inverted Wing-Backs act as they should then there must be a free DM slot on their side:
If there're 3 central defenders in your tactic then Inverted Wing-Backs are also hard-coded to play as regular Wing-backs with "Cuts Inside" and "Stay Narrower" PIs:
So there's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-Backs when your tactic has 2/3 Defensive Midfielders or 3 Central Defenders because in this case Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cut Inside" PIs but in all other cases Inverted Wing-Backs have a completely different and unique behavior.
Please note, that what I said isn't my opinion about what should work and what not in the game. I was talking about how the game code works and Inverted Wing-Backs are coded the way that if there's no a free DM slot near them then Inverted Wing-Backs act as regular Wing-Backs with "Stay Narrower" and "Cuts Inside" PIs, which means here's almost no difference between Inverted Wing-Backs and regular Wing-backs, they're loosing their unique behavior.
I hope that helps.
Cheers.
Of course, at some point we'll give this tactic and other top rated tactics an additional testing.
At this point the testing server is quite busy, there're some tactics from the previous patch await to be re-tested and also people post tactics for the new patch.
But ya, it's a good start, see which shape gets out on top
As I said, we haven't decided yet what to do after we re-test all tactics from the Hall Of Fame.
I mean, should we then re-tested more tactics from the previous patch or should start testing only tactics that have been updated for the new patch. I guess, a lot will depend on the result of the re-testing. It'll reveal whether the patch has brought a lot of changes or not.
Anyway, your suggestions are always welcome.
The Winter Patch ( 23.3.0 ) Live Now - https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/573744-fm23-main-data-update-now-live/
Our current plan is at first to re-test all tactics from the Hall Of Fame - https://fm-arena.com/table/fm23-hall-of-fame/
What's next after retesting all tactics from Hall of Fame? Honestly, we haven't decided yet. Your suggestions are welcome.
Cheers.
I'm just interested, I have been using GS with Marks file, but I want to eliminate GS use now, so I'm going to try and focus on the method you have used here
Yes, you're right that Jumping Reach and Finishing are quite position specific attributes and that's why I decided not to include them in the list but Balance is generic and could be included.
The reason why I didn't include Balance is because I wanted to keep the attribute list as short as possible so that's why I didn't include it as many other attributes that could included. Of course, when you play the game in normal way then paying attention to other attributes would beneficial and that's what you should do.
or you think it works behind the UI anyway and it just a confusing way to show in-match?
As @Yarema said, by clicking the icons you aren't implementing anything, your're just changing between the views.
Btw, do you know that there are also "Personal" and "Position" PIs ( Player Instructions ).
It works the same way as it works with the OIs.
Every player can have his personal PIs that would apply only to him.
Just look it have the same icons and changing views style that you can see in the OIs.
You don't see "Position" OIs in a match because by default in a match it shows "Player" OIs and to see "Position" OIs you need to click on the icon that switches between "Player" OIs and "Position" OIs
This:
Or this:
Once more, there 2 types of OIs: "Player" OIs and "Position" OIs. Both types can be set in a match and outside of a match.
If you are in a match then the only way to switch between two types of OIs is clicking on the appropriate icons.
When you outside a match then setting "Position" OIs is also available in the "Position" tab:
It didn't make any difference when you have it On/Off for every position then what's the point in testing it On/Off for a single position or a few positions?
So here's my advice if you're gonna test different OIs to save your time I suggest testing them before On/Off for every position to see whether it make any difference or not.
Thanks again for your vital support.
To be honest, I don't think there's much to tests.
It's been tested already that the more "Press", the better. Every top rated tactic has it set on the highest possible level and the OIs can't set it above the limit.
It's been tested already that the highest level of the Tackles give the best result so the OIs can't set the it above the limit.
Back in FM22 I remeber we tested "Show Onto Weaker Foot" OIs with and w/o for every position and the difference was like 1 point.
It's been tested that "Tight Marking" ON/Off for every position and it didn't make any difference.
But I guess it's worth testing "Show Onto Weaker Foot" for FM23, there might be changes but honestly, not much hope.
Unforutanlty, with that I can't help. I really don't know for sure whether the Player OIs take priory over the Position OIs or not.
For me, it would be logically if the Player OIs take priority over the Position OIs but as I said I'm not sure about that I think it's worth asking the devs on the official forum because only they can answer for sure on that question.
Or I guess to be sure you can set only 1 type of OIs at time.
As you can see there is nothing there.
Here's another example.
Let's imagine you set OIs using "Player" OIs on Ivan Toney(Striker) but he got substituted early in the match which means the OIs you set on Ivan Toney won't be applied to the player who took his place.
To avoid that you can set OIs on the striker position instead of a player. So no matter who plays on the striker position will have the OIs you set.
Please, note I'm not saying that the second option is better and should be always used, I'm just saying that those 2 options are different things and have different purpose. Sometimes, you might want to use the 1st option and sometime the 2nd option.
Maybe it's not like importing but just showing what's going onto the position? Holy banana and i was doing it every game? Gonna check SI forum... that's made me really curious
As I said, everything is very simple.
There're 2 ways of settings OIs:
1) "Players" menu - it allows you setting OIs on a specific player, which means this player can change his position during the next match but the OIs you set should "stick" to him regardless of the position his is playing in.
Here's a tooltip from the game:
This approach of setting OIs is quite time consuming and it requires doing before every match.
2) "Position" menu - it allows you setting OIs on a specific position instead of specific player. It can be set only once and it should apply against every opponent. No need to set it again before every match.
It's been working like that since it was introduced. No changes to it this year.
Btw, if you have doubts about some game mechanics then I find the best way to clear the doubts is asking the devs on the official forum. They're really nice guys and will be glad to answer your questions.
Delicious said: If i don't preselect Trigger press from OIs is overwriting the TI or TI has always the most prioriy?
As far as I know OIs take priority over TIs and PIs, which means if your tactic doesn't have "Get Stuck In" TI and your players don't have "Tackle Harder" PI but your OIs tell your players to "Tackle Hard" every opposition player then you can expect seeing your players use "Tackle Harder" against every opposition player in matches.
Delicious said: Logically would be just fine to put "weak foot" seem the more logical but maybe ain't working this way as well.
Let's image that the right winger of your opponent has his right foot as he strongest foot and if you apply "Show Onto Weaker" foot OI to him then your players will try to block his way down the right flank and force him to "Cut Inside" from the flank.
You really need to be careful with that because most of time he'll be having a free way from the flank to the box as your player should block his way down the flank if his left foot isn't that bad, for example, he's got "Fairly Strong" rating for the left foot then he can easily exploit that free way to the box.
So as you can see it isn't that easy to decided whether to apply "Show Onto Weaker" OI or not.
Delicious said: but it's strange that once i click "select position" after selected all the players is importing them... am i missing something?
Beside that, if that's is working even tho you can't "see" that we can make more in-depth test about even which roles need tackle harder etc...
Sorry, I didn't get that.
If there is an option to make it automatically would be faster to test them, that's why i did ask how you did that
There are 2 ways of setting OIs:
1) "Players" menu - it allows you setting the OIs specifically only against your next opponents. it resets before each match.
2) "Position" menu - it allows you setting the OIs against any opponent, it will apply against every opponent. It doesn't reset each time and you can set it only once and it should apply against each opponent.
Yes, you can test OIs.
Just set them in the 'Opposition Instruction' section and you're good to go.
Let's see how it'll do.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/4534-424-extreme-volts-iv-opposition-instructions/
( Opposition Instructions )
https://fm-arena.com/thread/3624-424-extreme-volts-iv/
Opposition Instructions by Delicious
there is not a "best" tactic or stuff like that, or you decide to follow the meta or you adapt what you like to see to your team.
I've put it for a test.
Let's see how it'll do.