kjordafen said: I agree with you that this is how it normally is, but many people can develop and find fast attaching midfields for example. Then, tactics involving attaching midfields may actually perform better than these 3 striker formations.
What are the pace and accelation for attaching midfields in these tests? If these are below 15 I think the test is somewhat unrealistic. In most fm-saves you could easily buy/find/use players with 15 pace and accelaration. If you are in any top 5 league you can find it straight away, and in most second tier leagues you will easily be capable of that in a season or two.
Could someone upload pics of the attributes? Expand This is what a Striker/winger, and DM/CM/AM look like in the save. There are two striker only players in the save teams also but they have the same attributes as the wingers.
Zippo said: The Match Engine don't use CA to calculate the result of matches so CA is irrelevant in that terms.
The Match Engine uses the actual attributes to calculate the result of matches.
For example,
The striker above has 140CA
140CA Player
But if we give him additional playing positions such as AMCL/AMCR/AMC/ML/MR/MC then his CA will increase from 140CA to 164CA
164CA Player
As you can see the player still has the same attributes but his CA has significantly increased from 140CA to 164CA but in matches his efficiency hasn't changed because his attributes haven't changed. In other word, he won't play better having 164CA instead of 140CA when the actual attributes haven't changed.
So only by looking at the CA you can't say that one player is better than other, also, the attributes have a different CA cost for different positions. For example, in general the attributes cost much less CA for central defenders than for any other positions so you can't compare players only by looking at their CA. In other words, in the actual game in general Central Defenders tend to have lower CA comparing to Striker but it doesn't make them less efficient in matches than Strikers. it's just that for a Central Defender the attributes are "cheaper" in terms of CA than for any other position.
Our tactic testing leagues is designed to represent the actual game and not some "fantasy" custom football world.
Here're some facts from the actual game:
- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.
- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.
- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.
and so on...
I hope this helps.
Cheers. Expand
Well explained as always, brings a lot of clarity to the topic.
Do you think the CBs in the test save are suitable to play in a 3ATB system? I know CBs in general have low dribbling, but I think when FM players play 3ATB they prioritize attributes differently on wide CBs than in a traditional 4ATB tactic.
Wide center backs go more forward and also have to cover space out wide so having slightly higher dribbling and pace is normal, and maybe a bit less strength/jumping reach to compensate. Something like Ben White or Tomiyasu.
Is it sensible to include a second type of CB (wide CB) in the test save teams, or does that make testing more difficult without necessarily making it better for testing?
Same goes for AMs as they are very well rounded players in the test save, but in normal FM games they are usually much more attacking players similar to inside forwards or false nines.
Changes from previous submitted tactic with 55 rating: - WB now on stay narrow - Higher def line - Step up added, Drop off removed. - Volante from support to attack
Floppyaams said: how do people find suitable left and right midfielders for these formations? i think really good players in these positions are very rare.
Also curious but how much does corners contribute to these tactics. I remember corner being broken in fm 20 and 21 Expand
I think you can just use any good winger/inverted winger.
I like to play defensive or direct football in some of my saves, but I always get to a point were I can no longer progress up the table with such playstyles. You can inject some features of hoofball into your tactic, like aiming for a target forward, using more crosses, lofted crosses, early crossing on fullbacks etc, but keeping the rest of the tactic more META. I also like having short/standard passing team instructions, and give certain individual players more direct passing so that the team in general plays good short passing football, but certain players hoof it up as they see fit.
In those post, we can see that either some of the attributes were boosted or redistributed to some extent and both of the results indicate that especially Pace and Acceleration being high provides the best result in the game engine.
According to these results people either create a tactic or tweak the existing ones in order to give their team a better chance of winning, so I believe creating a tactic that is all about high lines and running into space can be justified.
Of course you can create a tactic using a "Target Man" and feed him with lots of crosses, but according to these results and the attribute testing table, some of the attributes have a larger impact on the game engine than others so it would never perform as good as using a quick "Advanced Forward".
So, continuing your analogy, I think it would be a waste of time to evaluate a fish on it's ability to swim. Expand
Thanks for the reply.
What that test shows is that with the spesific [Attribute Test Tactic], pace/acceleration is the most important attribute for the team overall. Anything beyond that is speculation.
Again, it comes down to what the purpose of the testing league is. I assumed it was to test different types of tactics with a variety of roles and instructions, and not just test meta tactics? People have spent a lot of time and energy into creating the testing league, so whatever the purpose it's the right of the creators ofc.
No doubts, that Pace + Acceleration is a much better combination than Strength + Jumping Reach so there's no point in testing with a tall and strong striker as he always will be much worse than a fast and short striker Expand
Now I don't understand. Is the purpose of the testing league to properly test tactics that gets submitted, or to only test what tactics are the most META? We all know fast strikers are better for most purposes, but that was never my point.
Also the test you linked don't really give much usefull information and aren't conclusive based on the limited information it gives.EDIT: To make it clear, it doesn't give much information because you obviously rather want pace than strength/jumping in a tactic that is all about high lines and running into space. It's like evaluating a fish on it's ability to run rather than to swim.
Delicious said: What kind of test you did? The save is starting a league at a point? Regarding the role doesn't really matter their height.. Some roles won't work because of their passive and hidden ones. FM test league this year kickass in any aspect imho about attendency. Expand
I don't think you understand me.
1) Lets say you submit a tactic with an Advanced forward, low crosses, and passing into space. The teams in the test league are well suited for this because all the striker have high pace/dribbling/finishing. This means that the tactic will be tested under conditions that allows the tactic to work as intended.
2) You submit a tactic with a Target Forward. You want him to win aerial duels both for link up play and in the box to score goals. This will not work in the test league because all the strikers have 9 jumping reach, 11 strength and all the CBs have 15 jumping reach/strength. This means that the tactic will not be able to work as intended, and thus not be tested properly.
This is based on the save file that was available for download in this thread. Unless the file has been changed I see this as a major flaw.
Hello, I have a question regarding the testing league. I downloaded it to do some testing of my own and noticed something. All the strikers options are short, pacy, technical players, and the CBs of all the teams have a good mixture of pace/strength/height. Won't this make it close to impossible to test the how good a tactic is if it uses Target forwards, mixed/lofted crosses, or direct passes? Seeing that the strikers can only challenge CBs with pace, and not strength or jumping reach?
What are the pace and accelation for attaching midfields in these tests? If these are below 15 I think the test is somewhat unrealistic. In most fm-saves you could easily buy/find/use players with 15 pace and accelaration. If you are in any top 5 league you can find it straight away, and in most second tier leagues you will easily be capable of that in a season or two.
Could someone upload pics of the attributes?
This is what a Striker/winger, and DM/CM/AM look like in the save. There are two striker only players in the save teams also but they have the same attributes as the wingers.
The Match Engine uses the actual attributes to calculate the result of matches.
For example,
The striker above has 140CA
140CA Player
But if we give him additional playing positions such as AMCL/AMCR/AMC/ML/MR/MC then his CA will increase from 140CA to 164CA
164CA Player
As you can see the player still has the same attributes but his CA has significantly increased from 140CA to 164CA but in matches his efficiency hasn't changed because his attributes haven't changed. In other word, he won't play better having 164CA instead of 140CA when the actual attributes haven't changed.
So only by looking at the CA you can't say that one player is better than other, also, the attributes have a different CA cost for different positions. For example, in general the attributes cost much less CA for central defenders than for any other positions so you can't compare players only by looking at their CA. In other words, in the actual game in general Central Defenders tend to have lower CA comparing to Striker but it doesn't make them less efficient in matches than Strikers. it's just that for a Central Defender the attributes are "cheaper" in terms of CA than for any other position.
Our tactic testing leagues is designed to represent the actual game and not some "fantasy" custom football world.
Here're some facts from the actual game:
- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Finishing" attribute, it isn't higher than "6-7" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Finishing attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Finishing then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.
- in the actual game Central Defenders tend to have a very low "Dribbling" attribute, it isn't higher than "8-9" so if in your tactic testing league you set the Dribbling attribute of your Central Defenders higher than that, for example, you give them "16" Dribbling attribute then your tactic testing league will be represent the actual game very poorly.
- Winger/Inside Forward/Full Backs/Strikers tend to be faster than other positions in the actual game so that's why in our tactic testing league Winger/Inside Forward/Strikers are faster than other positions.
and so on...
I hope this helps.
Cheers.
Well explained as always, brings a lot of clarity to the topic.
Do you think the CBs in the test save are suitable to play in a 3ATB system? I know CBs in general have low dribbling, but I think when FM players play 3ATB they prioritize attributes differently on wide CBs than in a traditional 4ATB tactic.
Wide center backs go more forward and also have to cover space out wide so having slightly higher dribbling and pace is normal, and maybe a bit less strength/jumping reach to compensate. Something like Ben White or Tomiyasu.
Is it sensible to include a second type of CB (wide CB) in the test save teams, or does that make testing more difficult without necessarily making it better for testing?
Same goes for AMs as they are very well rounded players in the test save, but in normal FM games they are usually much more attacking players similar to inside forwards or false nines.
- WB now on stay narrow
- Higher def line
- Step up added, Drop off removed.
- Volante from support to attack
Also curious but how much does corners contribute to these tactics. I remember corner being broken in fm 20 and 21
I think you can just use any good winger/inverted winger.
Doesn't matter what team you test it with. People just want to get it tested on this platform.
We've re-tested your tactic with adjusted attributes for the Target Forward.
Adjusted Attributes - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/4647-442-dycheball-adjusted-attributes/
Default Attributes - https://fm-arena.com/thread/4482-442-dycheball/
Acceleration 15->13
Pace 15->13
Jumping Reach 9->15
Strength 11->16
Height 175cm->190cm
Default Attributes of Target Forward
Adjusted attributes of Target Forward
Thanks a lot for taking the time for this.
I have to say it's rather soul crushing to see that certain roles are just objectively better no matter the circumstances, but the numbers don't lie.
- https://fm-arena.com/thread/2980-game-changing-player-attributes/
- https://fm-arena.com/thread/3293-what-it-takes-to-dominate-epl-with-bournemouth/
In those post, we can see that either some of the attributes were boosted or redistributed to some extent and both of the results indicate that especially Pace and Acceleration being high provides the best result in the game engine.
According to these results people either create a tactic or tweak the existing ones in order to give their team a better chance of winning, so I believe creating a tactic that is all about high lines and running into space can be justified.
Of course you can create a tactic using a "Target Man" and feed him with lots of crosses, but according to these results and the attribute testing table, some of the attributes have a larger impact on the game engine than others so it would never perform as good as using a quick "Advanced Forward".
So, continuing your analogy, I think it would be a waste of time to evaluate a fish on it's ability to swim.
Thanks for the reply.
What that test shows is that with the spesific [Attribute Test Tactic], pace/acceleration is the most important attribute for the team overall. Anything beyond that is speculation.
Again, it comes down to what the purpose of the testing league is. I assumed it was to test different types of tactics with a variety of roles and instructions, and not just test meta tactics? People have spent a lot of time and energy into creating the testing league, so whatever the purpose it's the right of the creators ofc.
Here's you can find a test result of Strength - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3421-strength-attribute-has-been-decreased-by-4-points-across-all-the-positions/
And here's you can find a test result of Pace - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3413-pace-attribute-has-been-decreased-by-4-points-across-all-the-positions/
No doubts, that Pace + Acceleration is a much better combination than Strength + Jumping Reach so there's no point in testing with a tall and strong striker as he always will be much worse than a fast and short striker
Now I don't understand. Is the purpose of the testing league to properly test tactics that gets submitted, or to only test what tactics are the most META? We all know fast strikers are better for most purposes, but that was never my point.
Also the test you linked don't really give much usefull information and aren't conclusive based on the limited information it gives.EDIT: To make it clear, it doesn't give much information because you obviously rather want pace than strength/jumping in a tactic that is all about high lines and running into space. It's like evaluating a fish on it's ability to run rather than to swim.
I don't think you understand me.
1) Lets say you submit a tactic with an Advanced forward, low crosses, and passing into space. The teams in the test league are well suited for this because all the striker have high pace/dribbling/finishing. This means that the tactic will be tested under conditions that allows the tactic to work as intended.
2) You submit a tactic with a Target Forward. You want him to win aerial duels both for link up play and in the box to score goals. This will not work in the test league because all the strikers have 9 jumping reach, 11 strength and all the CBs have 15 jumping reach/strength. This means that the tactic will not be able to work as intended, and thus not be tested properly.
This is based on the save file that was available for download in this thread. Unless the file has been changed I see this as a major flaw.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/2733-how-to-get-your-tactic-tested/
Done