@Zippo Hi, interesting result of this test. Would you like to do a similar test for force opposition outside/inside together with invite/stop crosses for Katana 4231 104p v3.1?
Zippo said: Here's data for Katana 4231 104p v3.1 tactic with "Overlaps" TIs and without "Overlaps" TIs after 32,000 matches tested.
Judge for yourself.
There's no obvious negative effect from "Overlaps" TIs as it happened for the two previous "generic" tactics.
It seems the "Attacking" mentality or other TIs and PIs might influence on how "Overlaps" TIs perform and in "Katana 4231 104p v3.1" tactic the "Overlaps" TI even give a small positive effect which is about "+0.1" points but don't forget that even 32,0000 matches test also have at least 0.2 RNG.
@alex this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/9578-katana-4231-104p-v3-1-27/ might scored that low due to the fact that the "Overlaps" TIs weren't the only instructions that were changed, I noticed that "Moves Into Channels" PI was also removed from AM, so there's no point in testing it for 32,000 matches because anyway, it isn't possible to "isolate" the absence of "Overlaps" TIs in that case. Expand
Amazing test. Do you think of doing the same for focus play down the left/right?
MeanOnSunday said: Hope it’s ok to post a link to Reddit, since this experiment is based off FM Arena research. CA 180+ version of Man City gets totally destroyed by CA 90 version of Man City. I am not the OP on Reddit.
By the way, I am testing the schedule below right now. Keep in mind that it requires training with half intensity, else it will lead to a high number of injuries. I also discovered a glitch on training that allows you to "super rest" players (almost 40% more recovery of condition and fatigue than just full rest schedule), but I am still investigating it to understand exactly how it works. Expand
What do you think about individual training? Are they worth using?
CBP87 said: I personally think the double pivot of 2 DMs is better but give it a whirl and let us know how you get on Expand
Have you considered testing 2 BWM-S instead of 2 DM-S and SS instead of AM? Perhaps, BWM will provide a slightly better option? And also, have you thought about testing force opposition outside/inside and block crosses?
Because I've checked our DB and here's what I got:
Red General 4231 v1.0
424 CF Cabuloso
433 Tsukyomi I
According to your table, "Red General 4231 v1.0" tactic is ranked "8th" and "424 CF Cabuloso" tactic is ranked "1st" when it come to 4-3-3 formation but according to our numbers the difference is about 1.5 points which could be just "statistical noise".
If you ask me then I think it makes sense to "rank" tactics only when there's a meaningful difference between them, I'd say it should be at least 10-15 points difference but when the difference is just 1-2 points then it can be easily "statistical noise".
Also, according to your table "433 Tsukyomi I" tactic is ranked "1st" when it comes to 5-3-2 formation but that's not true. Expand
Did I understand correctly. that is, against 4-2-3-1 with the best TI, 4-3-3 with the best TI is most effective? And am I right if I say that the 5-2-3 formation with the best TI is the most successful against all your tested ones from the forum?
My purpose is to understand which formation is most effective to play against 4-2-3-1 red general.
After several tests I've done in the past, mostly on the 24.1 version, but also some on this one (24.2) here on FM-Arena I've noticed some things about the testing league and I want to share them with you.
AI managers have mostly the same attributes as each other and that means they play and approach matches in the same way. It also means that they use the same roles (each formation among themselves) and because of that the formations and the way one builds tactics in general and tests them here is generally quite predictable as to what the outcome will be.
Let me give you an example. All AI managers without exception use IWB(s) on DR/WBR and WB(a) on DL/WBL and after my own testing and that of others here and elsewhere we conclude that IWBs inside FM24 are weak at defending. So with that in mind I can simply put in 'Focus Play Down The Left' & 'Overlap Left' and I will get better results with almost all formations and roles that encourage these moves. There are other things we can take as examples as well, but I think you get the point here.
At this point I want to ask, what are we trying to create? A tactic that will get the most points within the testing league or the best possible tactic that will get the most points within regular careers?
The reason I ask this is because within the testing league there is no diversity in terms of the opponent and with that being said simply the best tactics here just beats AI teams within the testing league and we are not sure if it will pay off the same in a regular season/career.
What are your thoughts about this?
Thank you!
PS 1 I'm not writing this to confront anyone or to malign the practices of the staff here at FM-Arena. I certainly appreciate the work they do and in general for the space they have here and hosting us.
PS 2 Please anyone who wishes to discuss this topic please speak respectfully to all and comments should be constructive.
PS 3 I wrote the same text on one of my tactics and I'm really interested to hear your opinions. Expand
I'm surprised you didn't get any response to this thread.
I also noticed that in fm 24 and the second half of fm 23, tactics no longer worked perfectly, especially in online matches. For example, 4-2-3-1 is very difficult to win in online matches against real opponents.
What tactics do you think are strong but underrated in FM arena, special for playing online?
dzek said: I'm not sure if I understood what you said but 'Poss Won' means Possession Won and it's how many times my team won the ball from the opponent. A higher number means a better result in terms of winning possession.
The tests above were done on 24.1 version of the game using this tactic with the three mentalities shown in the tables above and include these instructions: - High Press - Much More Often - Prevent Short GK Distribution - Counter Press
The only difference in each row is the defensive line. Expand
Ok thanks, I figured it out.
Have you ever had an idea to test Trap inside or outside?
dzek said: @CBP87 the reason behind this change btw for everyone to know was because I have saw many times the opponents play long balls over the top against the much higher defensive line and I also had tested in previous update (24.1) this, which defensive line has the best possession won by my team and it was always with standard defensive line.
Let's see if it stands until 2400 matches
* Poss Won on Balanced mentality translated to the 'per 90 minutes' stat, but still has the lowest numbers compared to the other mentalities. Expand
Please explain, with a balanced mentality the best possession of the ball is, right? Or what does Poss Won mean?
@CSTG KANE Hello, what files do you recommend using for FM Genie Scout? From FM 22,23 or do you think in this FM the attributes affect the game differently?
No, I don't believe there's a hidden attribute "development rate" because if there were such thing then we'd have it for editing in the official pre-game editor or in the official in-game editor.
The player development rate depends on many various factors, it can't be just one thing that determines everything.
@Zippo there are statistics, which cd scores more? running into the nearest one or standing there? In other words, where do you put the cd with the best heading?
Zippo said: Honestly, I have no idea how it works under the hood.
It might be that that the "Be More Disciplined" TI makes the players to stick to their duties more tightly, which means the "Attacking" duties become even more attacking and the "Support" duties become even more supportive and so no.
But it's only my guess. Expand
It was an interesting test anyway, any plans to test low crosses and mixed? Because at the moment there is no clear understanding of the crosses...
Judge for yourself.
There's no obvious negative effect from "Overlaps" TIs as it happened for the two previous "generic" tactics.
It seems the "Attacking" mentality or other TIs and PIs might influence on how "Overlaps" TIs perform and in "Katana 4231 104p v3.1" tactic the "Overlaps" TI even give a small positive effect which is about "+0.1" points but don't forget that even 32,0000 matches test also have at least 0.2 RNG.
@alex this tactic - https://fm-arena.com/thread/9578-katana-4231-104p-v3-1-27/ might scored that low due to the fact that the "Overlaps" TIs weren't the only instructions that were changed, I noticed that "Moves Into Channels" PI was also removed from AM, so there's no point in testing it for 32,000 matches because anyway, it isn't possible to "isolate" the absence of "Overlaps" TIs in that case.
Amazing test. Do you think of doing the same for focus play down the left/right?
https://www.reddit.com/r/footballmanagergames/comments/1ameaot/exposing_the_fm_match_engine_only_9_attributes/
"Sorry, this post was deleted by the person who originally posted it."
Can you briefly describe what was written there?
By the way, I am testing the schedule below right now. Keep in mind that it requires training with half intensity, else it will lead to a high number of injuries. I also discovered a glitch on training that allows you to "super rest" players (almost 40% more recovery of condition and fatigue than just full rest schedule), but I am still investigating it to understand exactly how it works.
What do you think about individual training? Are they worth using?
hmm, why do you recommend this? After all, Zim has more Pts Dif?
Have you considered testing 2 BWM-S instead of 2 DM-S and SS instead of AM? Perhaps, BWM will provide a slightly better option? And also, have you thought about testing force opposition outside/inside and block crosses?
Are you sure your numbers are correct?
Because I've checked our DB and here's what I got:
Red General 4231 v1.0
424 CF Cabuloso
433 Tsukyomi I
According to your table, "Red General 4231 v1.0" tactic is ranked "8th" and "424 CF Cabuloso" tactic is ranked "1st" when it come to 4-3-3 formation but according to our numbers the difference is about 1.5 points which could be just "statistical noise".
If you ask me then I think it makes sense to "rank" tactics only when there's a meaningful difference between them, I'd say it should be at least 10-15 points difference but when the difference is just 1-2 points then it can be easily "statistical noise".
Also, according to your table "433 Tsukyomi I" tactic is ranked "1st" when it comes to 5-3-2 formation but that's not true.
Hello @Zippo , great work!
Did I understand correctly. that is, against 4-2-3-1 with the best TI, 4-3-3 with the best TI is most effective? And am I right if I say that the 5-2-3 formation with the best TI is the most successful against all your tested ones from the forum?
My purpose is to understand which formation is most effective to play against 4-2-3-1 red general.
After several tests I've done in the past, mostly on the 24.1 version, but also some on this one (24.2) here on FM-Arena I've noticed some things about the testing league and I want to share them with you.
AI managers have mostly the same attributes as each other and that means they play and approach matches in the same way. It also means that they use the same roles (each formation among themselves) and because of that the formations and the way one builds tactics in general and tests them here is generally quite predictable as to what the outcome will be.
Let me give you an example.
All AI managers without exception use IWB(s) on DR/WBR and WB(a) on DL/WBL and after my own testing and that of others here and elsewhere we conclude that IWBs inside FM24 are weak at defending. So with that in mind I can simply put in 'Focus Play Down The Left' & 'Overlap Left' and I will get better results with almost all formations and roles that encourage these moves. There are other things we can take as examples as well, but I think you get the point here.
At this point I want to ask, what are we trying to create? A tactic that will get the most points within the testing league or the best possible tactic that will get the most points within regular careers?
The reason I ask this is because within the testing league there is no diversity in terms of the opponent and with that being said simply the best tactics here just beats AI teams within the testing league and we are not sure if it will pay off the same in a regular season/career.
What are your thoughts about this?
Thank you!
PS 1 I'm not writing this to confront anyone or to malign the practices of the staff here at FM-Arena. I certainly appreciate the work they do and in general for the space they have here and hosting us.
PS 2 Please anyone who wishes to discuss this topic please speak respectfully to all and comments should be constructive.
PS 3 I wrote the same text on one of my tactics and I'm really interested to hear your opinions.
Hello, @dzek
I'm surprised you didn't get any response to this thread.
I also noticed that in fm 24 and the second half of fm 23, tactics no longer worked perfectly, especially in online matches. For example, 4-2-3-1 is very difficult to win in online matches against real opponents.
What tactics do you think are strong but underrated in FM arena, special for playing online?
The tests above were done on 24.1 version of the game using this tactic with the three mentalities shown in the tables above and include these instructions:
- High Press
- Much More Often
- Prevent Short GK Distribution
- Counter Press
The only difference in each row is the defensive line.
Ok thanks, I figured it out.
Have you ever had an idea to test Trap inside or outside?
Let's see if it stands until 2400 matches
* Poss Won on Balanced mentality translated to the 'per 90 minutes' stat, but still has the lowest numbers compared to the other mentalities.
Please explain, with a balanced mentality the best possession of the ball is, right? Or what does Poss Won mean?
What do you use as a defensive option? Just switch your mentality to balance? And in case you need to score goals with a very attacking?
No, I don't believe there's a hidden attribute "development rate" because if there were such thing then we'd have it for editing in the official pre-game editor or in the official in-game editor.
The player development rate depends on many various factors, it can't be just one thing that determines everything.
Here's some of the factors that affect the player development rate - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2671-player-development-and-training/
Hello Zippo. There are similar tests, but about how to keep the physical attributes of an older player for as long as possible.
I mean how to slow down the fall of pace and acceleration attributes as much as possible. What player parameters affect this?
It might be that that the "Be More Disciplined" TI makes the players to stick to their duties more tightly, which means the "Attacking" duties become even more attacking and the "Support" duties become even more supportive and so no.
But it's only my guess.
It was an interesting test anyway, any plans to test low crosses and mixed? Because at the moment there is no clear understanding of the crosses...