ZaZ said: I agree that some roles are weaker than others overall, but making that into a list without enough data will cause more damage than good. Expand
Yeah, but we have 350+ tactic on the table and everyone is playing with AF instead a Target Man and I dont see it changing. The damage is alrdy there.
senna said: Yes, I tried.. no works. I think because I have also high press instruction Expand
XMas have as well and it worked. Maybe coz ur IW are on attacking mode? Im seeing most of balanced tactics work better with Counter off and Attacking/Positive ones works better with it. I guess we will never know
crizeKOS said: This is just an example of how things are going in this moment just a specific sector of the field. We could discuss alot of other stuff, like the best back 3 config interactions for instance. WHY whe cant produce a back3 tactic to endure in the top of the table? Anyway, hope u guys understand what I'm trying to do here... Expand
@opq produced a good one, why the hell arent we tweak his tactic?
This is just an example of how things are going in this moment just a specific sector of the field. We could discuss alot of other stuff, like the best back 3 config interactions for instance. WHY whe cant produce a back3 tactic to endure in the top of the table? Anyway, hope u guys understand what I'm trying to do here...
I have read what you have written and I think this year things have changed a bit with the game's match engine. Besides the bugs in the defensive approach, this year they have split the defensive formation directive into 4+2 different pieces:
Trap Inside / Trap Outside Stop Crosses / Invite Crosses + Step Up More / Drop Off More
They have changed the way the mentality of the tactics work and have tweaked various roles within the game.
So with what we know officially, I'm coming to the conclusion that this year it's more about pairing the roles together and with some team instructions that might work better to give tactics a boost.
This has been logically explained. Now BPDs with the "Dribble More" instruction (and maybe without) go higher on the pitch, with the ball at their feet and thus overtake RPM (This also applies to IWBs) - which means he stays out of the build up to the game. Whereas DM is a more defensive player who will play more simply.
And with the opposite is that CDs are not involved in building the game from behind and so they pass to the more creative players in front of them. Expand
Then @senna built this, DLP has passing shorter as PI.
@senna Did u try to remove the counter-press instruction? in my tests with this kind o shape and mentality they nerf alot my tactic. What u thoughts about this?
In my opinion I think that this classification of positions will limit the evolution of tactical systems and ideas. Therefore, everyone will use the same functions for the positions.
One thing that would be interesting is to put the average possession value on the tested tactics table. Expand
Ppl alrdy doing this. Guys were tweaking Corsair and West Hammer for more than a month. Now is happening with the Wide Diamond formation.
I think may things can be discussed and be tangible. As we seeing frequently on the tests tactics with the RPM underpeforming alongside two BPDs while tactics with the DM (D) doing better. But there is one tactic on the table that made RPM perform and it was alongisde two regular CDs. So, we have to consider some interactions tiers too.
p.s I know football game and FM are way too complex but we need to start to find some patterns and share among ourselfs. Something being apparently chaotic doenst mean that is a random stuff may It is our ability to see the patterns that are limiting us.
I agree with u guys, but for me even in a possession based tatic shadow striker and af would bring more coz their values are so high into the game atm. Same for other roles like CWB, WB, IWB, etc. There are some stuff here that ppl take for granted alrdy, coz they were punished several times for test other stuff. U can vary the style ok, but u can only do it in a proper range of top tier roles. Even gegenpressing for instance, most ppl are talking how nerfed in this match engine it gots.
Im done with W Diamond. So, I tried my frisk424 into a 4231 shape. Back to basics and all the good stuff. This tactic performed kinda good in relation to what I was doing these days. Im optimistic about laying a foundation here and work on it.
CBP87 said: I don't think there is a tier system as such and as obvious as this may sound, I think roles are impacted by the style you play, playing a DLF in a gegenpress isn't going to be as effective as playing a pressing forward.
But it is a good point, I often use the presets to understand which roles suit each style Expand
I guess style of play in FM most times seems just cosmetic, Im sry saying this. If I want a good gegenpressing tactic I would neither play DLF or PF but AF
- I've this friend of mine that created a custom tactic league (nothing compared with the job ur guys are doing here). Today he ran some tests that I asked him and the only thing that managed to improve Xmas_twkd3 was a Trequartista in the SS place. For that reason I'm asking u guys to test this to be able to ratify the tests we ran in the last hours and the fact that shadows strikers are hugely nerfed in FM23. @MemorizableUsername notice that too, if im not mistaken. That something that feels weird in wide diamond tactics, and is the SS role.
- I tried a holiday run with Chelsea and this time the role was able to perform rly good, being the best position of the season.
Anyway... as we saw today by the forum results some guys rly improved their wide diamond shapes with AMs
One thing I would like u guys to take notice is that TQ has the same level o press triggerin than SS despite he have the PI "easy on tackles" hardcoded. Furthermore if u compare the 3 positions TQ would be somehow a midterm in terms of attacking role...
Base Tactic: All Senjutsus + feedbacks from today by the testers
Changes made to the base tactic:
- pass directness: passing much shorter added - low crosses added - removed distribution type - SK back to support role - AM(S) instead of SS - alot of small tweaks in PIs (tried to keep it cleaner, back for my gameplay essence)
DW is special, he has pressing trigger that cannot be overachieved by any position on flanks from ML/MR to AML/AMR. I guess this ending paying off the lack of natural position skills.
Delicious said: i've tried all of them :P, from my test AM it's better then SS but here not even near or maybe at the time i did with wrong setup. But imho AM can add something on the calderon. Trequartista and regista are perfoming well "itself",but not optimal, they really might need a specific build in order to release their pontential.
I mean if i have to release all my "experiments"... Zippo is going to block ip me.. Expand
yeah, we get in a moment that just little experiments can make a tactic improve.
Base Tactic: frisk4231
Changes made to the base tactic:
- changing in some of the roles (AM, FB and WG)
- keeper distribution tweaked
Yeah, but we have 350+ tactic on the table and everyone is playing with AF instead a Target Man and I dont see it changing. The damage is alrdy there.
This is a broken defensive mode. 5 players do counter press and 5 players back lower line defense
Yeah, but what I meant is that XMas dont has Counter Press. That why I asked u, to know if u could improve ur tactic by tweaking it off
I think because I have also high press instruction
XMas have as well and it worked. Maybe coz ur IW are on attacking mode?
Im seeing most of balanced tactics work better with Counter off and Attacking/Positive ones works better with it.
I guess we will never know
@opq produced a good one, why the hell arent we tweak his tactic?
I have read what you have written and I think this year things have changed a bit with the game's match engine. Besides the bugs in the defensive approach, this year they have split the defensive formation directive into 4+2 different pieces:
Trap Inside / Trap Outside
Stop Crosses / Invite Crosses
+ Step Up More / Drop Off More
They have changed the way the mentality of the tactics work and have tweaked various roles within the game.
So with what we know officially, I'm coming to the conclusion that this year it's more about pairing the roles together and with some team instructions that might work better to give tactics a boost.
This has been logically explained. Now BPDs with the "Dribble More" instruction (and maybe without) go higher on the pitch, with the ball at their feet and thus overtake RPM (This also applies to IWBs) - which means he stays out of the build up to the game. Whereas DM is a more defensive player who will play more simply.
And with the opposite is that CDs are not involved in building the game from behind and so they pass to the more creative players in front of them.
Then @senna built this, DLP has passing shorter as PI.
In my opinion I think that this classification of positions will limit the evolution of tactical systems and ideas. Therefore, everyone will use the same functions for the positions.
One thing that would be interesting is to put the average possession value on the tested tactics table.
Ppl alrdy doing this. Guys were tweaking Corsair and West Hammer for more than a month. Now is happening with the Wide Diamond formation.
p.s I know football game and FM are way too complex but we need to start to find some patterns and share among ourselfs. Something being apparently chaotic doenst mean that is a random stuff may It is our ability to see the patterns that are limiting us.
When u have only 1 DM pivot like on the 442 wide diamond or the 4141:
Tier 1: DM (D); DLP (D)
Tier 2: RPM (S); DLP (S)
Tier 3: HB, BWM (D), Anchor
Do u guys agree on this? What else? Any suggestion in other platforms?
@Chocorelo19 @MemorizableUsername @Delicious @senna @ntr master @WALTON1981 @super korean @Lsully95 @ZaZ @MakeSuRE
There are some stuff here that ppl take for granted alrdy, coz they were punished several times for test other stuff. U can vary the style ok, but u can only do it in a proper range of top tier roles. Even gegenpressing for instance, most ppl are talking how nerfed in this match engine it gots.
frisk4231 v2 - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17453/
But it is a good point, I often use the presets to understand which roles suit each style
I guess style of play in FM most times seems just cosmetic, Im sry saying this. If I want a good gegenpressing tactic I would neither play DLF or PF but AF
ST position:
- Advanced forward (tier 1)
- DLF (tier 2)
...
- Traquartista (tier 10)
So u guys thinks this is possible? coz clearly some roles are uselezz and cleary we are very limited in terms of range of choose for them.
Same for tactics/Team instructions.
If we think as a community here we can help each other and help the testers to get some rest 🤣🤣
Cheers
Base Tactic: XMas_twkd3 - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/16759/
Changes made to the base tactic:
- I've this friend of mine that created a custom tactic league (nothing compared with the job ur guys are doing here). Today he ran some tests that I asked him and the only thing that managed to improve Xmas_twkd3 was a Trequartista in the SS place. For that reason I'm asking u guys to test this to be able to ratify the tests we ran in the last hours and the fact that shadows strikers are hugely nerfed in FM23. @MemorizableUsername notice that too, if im not mistaken. That something that feels weird in wide diamond tactics, and is the SS role.
- I tried a holiday run with Chelsea and this time the role was able to perform rly good, being the best position of the season.
Anyway... as we saw today by the forum results some guys rly improved their wide diamond shapes with AMs
One thing I would like u guys to take notice is that TQ has the same level o press triggerin than SS despite he have the PI "easy on tackles" hardcoded. Furthermore if u compare the 3 positions TQ would be somehow a midterm in terms of attacking role...
Spoiler
Base Tactic: All Senjutsus + feedbacks from today by the testers
Changes made to the base tactic:
- pass directness: passing much shorter added
- low crosses added
- removed distribution type
- SK back to support role
- AM(S) instead of SS
- alot of small tweaks in PIs (tried to keep it cleaner, back for my gameplay essence)
Spoiler
I mean if i have to release all my "experiments"... Zippo is going to block ip me..
yeah, we get in a moment that just little experiments can make a tactic improve.