Zippo said: Here's an another example, it could be that the only what "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs do is setting "Attack" duty for the full backs or adding "Get Further Forward" to them.
So if your full backs already have "Attack" duty and "Get Further Forward" PI then adding "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs won't have any effect. Expand
yeah, and that might cause, that sometimes with already attacking FBs it's ok to be w/o any approach play
Zippo said: PIs modify the values set by TIs and if the values are already set at the maximum level by TIs then adding PIs that further increase the values won't have any effect because the values are already at the maximum level.
Also, adding some PIs have the same effect as adding some TIs so adding both won't have any effect. Expand
Was it tested?
So Tis set across all positions like that: Work ball into box = shoot less, get stuck = tackle harder, run at D = dribble more, and Be more expressive = roam? Then it gives simple explanation, why so much PIs are messed up, and yeah it gives understanding of non-working PF, as almost every tactic is already with max press on on Tis
one thing I can't understand with tier 1 roles is this it's almost the way everyone uses AFs + close down, which in theory should be even greater, but...
crizeKOS said: Yeah, but we have 350+ tactic on the table and everyone is playing with AF instead a Target Man and I dont see it changing. The damage is alrdy there. Expand
AF is go to for most formations and he won't make a tactic worse, it's that simple PF or DLF need very certain conditions to outperform AF and don't forget of possible changes in ME with patches
like, do I want such position of 1 of my 3 strikers at counter? the answer is YES but most people would prefer Firmino to be way more further
crizeKOS said: @opq produced a good one, why the hell arent we tweak his tactic? Expand
just do it already, as I'm getting cancer thinking, that I've found decent tweak and it's not xD anyway, I'm enjoying to play with v2 at my 2 saves, but would be nice if someone could bring 3atb to the next step
OK, mini-revolution incoming And yeah, I know, they usually leads to smth even worse xD
I've decided that very first variation or at least v2 in balanced and cautious mentality is enough for my save, when I play in Europe, table of tested tactics in GA perspective says it all I guess
But at Hungarian League I wanna smash opposition with Ferencvarosi. That's not like I don't already, but I need a real smash
So, ATTACKING incoming (+2IF and AF version, as it showed better results GD wise against 5221, which AI loves to use when wants to park the bus, but it has big problem against good 4231 and 451, specially in away games, so it's ok to switch to this version only against buses)
Main problem during test tbh was to see all match results no matter how it ended up, to see if I got FMed in even game or mb I had an advantage and it was just bad days for conversion chances to goals, or mb it was lose game that my side somehow converted into win(not a good sign), as that's not only you who becomes FMed - sometime AI struggle too. So, I needed to see suspicious games when I got W w/o any real advantage just by luck, or got bad luck and got D or L in game, when I should win. I didn't count real even games(less then 0.5 xG diff), except it at home and vs weaker opps, as it just normal and can turn either side. With this approach in mind it was only 1 game in 3 runs where I've clearly lose it with no chance, and it was away against City, so not a big problem (or it is as it was -2 xG).
so I've took V3 as base (just because it's easier to change SPs in this) and made it 3412 from 3421 mentality -> attack -be expressive -counter-press distribution without specific positions D-line -> standard
AF: -tight marking and roam + short pass AM -> SS: -marking and holding ball and position since at banned by passives CWBsup -> WBatt: only hard tackle VOLsup -> DMsup: with tackle, dribble and risky passes BPD: central one with hard tackle and tight marking, left and right just with passives SKatt -> SKde - i don't want risky runs at GK position with attacking mentality
screenshots are from last of 3 runs (avg is 100pts) Spoiler
as fully strikerless setup didn't end up well, and I want to step back from 3 strikers, I've converted it to 3421 (or 235 at positional game and you still have an option for fast counter in f9)
Made up from v2: so again not minimalistic (many Tis and PIs)
PFde -> F9 (he just need a chance xD), AF -> AMatt as they seem more stable than SS, and 1 player in attacking trio with dribble (f9) is enough Vol -> DMde (it's already more then enough players at attacking phase), central BPD -> libero to help at posession (yeah, its a poison pill, since now it sometimes doesn't hurry up to be back at defense but whatever, just need another man at central circle at many buildups if there's no chance for fast breakthrough)
sometimes you getting FMed hard
but overall it's ok
+ version for those, who has good AMs, not like Pool ones -overlaps -cross often from wings, +underlaps Spoiler
took v1 as base and went with more simplistic approach width and passing to standard mentality to balanced minus play approach, work ball into box and dribbles minus counter-press, + quick throws w/o specific position to distribute +high D-line to make life easier in transitions, can be dropped to standard in case of slow defs in squad
AF -> PF sup(I just love PFs), IF att -> IF sup, WB att - FB att (my favorite from now on, as they give simplicity with just forward runs and crosses, not even from byline, w/o dribbling and other fancy stuff), SK def -> SK att to actually prevent some through ball (even on Sup it wasn't enough) PIs minimal (only tackle hard for every player), and leaved roam for PFs and stay wide for IFs changed SPs
some results Spoiler
added version with double AF too. It have to score more, but I'm just prefer PFs Spoiler
holav said: When I download "cross v2 balanced" and "cross v2.2 balanced", they appear to be identical. Am I missing something or is this a mistake? Expand
it's a mistake DMed Zippo already, I've got wrong file to upload for 2.2 :/
added strikerless version As a base - v2 PFde -> Enganche sup AF -> SS
from result point: Pool is definitely strong as a team itself, but have very so-so players for AM positions, still it managed to score more than City + good def
not yours test league just have a custom db savegame to make quick runs, which saves time like x2 compare to normal holiday runs and v2 had +9 pts avg in it
and in yours it's very clear to see v2 got less sum of pts
p.s. my bad, I didn't say it clear at the initial post
strange that v2 got less pts, as it gained like +9pts avg than v1 in test league, but anyway
as I definitely in love with volantes in this version and FM clearly says it's best to use in pair with anchor why don't try this + meta
v2.2 (v2.1 has VOLat, but as I mainly test top side with Pool and their central midfielders don't like forward runs at all, then ehhrrr...)
meta-meta PIs: just tackle harder across all positions
kinda meta TIs: minimalistic, no work ball into box aka shoot less often, no run at defense aka dribble more almost clean approach, just + underlaps (didn't test it yet, but I'm in big hope that roaming cwbs should help with them) shorter pass standard def line
shape and result Spoiler
v2.21 (all the same besides 2xAF - > 2xIF, just because many teams have inverted wingers or insides, and not many - 3 great natural forwards) Spoiler
P.S. later will try lone forward one with meta AF instead of PFde
changed TIs Cautious -> Balanced +Distribute to CBs, because wings too often are far away running forward for gk to distribute
changed PIs SKde -> SKsu (too many strange decisions with Def duty, too often don't try to interrupt deep through balls), WBat -> CWBsu (need more roam, and wanted to get rid of passive cross from byline) -shoot less, dribble and hard tackle from all positions - man marking from wings
it wasn't supposed to be cautious, tested attacking at first, but it was kinda fun, that cautious can score a lot, at least with top side and PFde is just perfect sometimes at helping midfielders with buildup
Is it a way to fix positions when transferring routines from one formation to another? E.g. I've transferred SPs routines from 433 to 343 and they were all messed up: attacking right corner at 433 were dcr to near post and dcl marking GK, and when transferred its dmc staying on gk mark and not one of 3 centre defs as a result I had to fix almost all positions in SP's setup
Droid said: If you think "cross fixed sp" tactic is better than "cross" tactic then remove "cross" tactic and leave only "cross fixed sp" tactic. I don't think fm-arena is gonna test both tactics just because you tweaked the set pieces. Expand
Hi! I've tried varieties of 343 and at one run I just literally forgot to change TIs with high LoE and D-line to test cautious mentality, and somehow it worked xD
with slightly shorter passes and trending lower D-line
oh, and finally back to Virgil Saint-Maximin approach aka dribble more on BPDs
one with DMsup
Spoiler
second one with roaming Registas (which I prefer more and hope it will get more pts than DM version)
Spoiler
So if your full backs already have "Attack" duty and "Get Further Forward" PI then adding "Overlap" or "Underlap" TIs won't have any effect.
yeah, and that might cause, that sometimes with already attacking FBs it's ok to be w/o any approach play
Also, adding some PIs have the same effect as adding some TIs so adding both won't have any effect.
Was it tested?
So Tis set across all positions like that: Work ball into box = shoot less, get stuck = tackle harder, run at D = dribble more, and Be more expressive = roam?
Then it gives simple explanation, why so much PIs are messed up, and yeah it gives understanding of non-working PF, as almost every tactic is already with max press on on Tis
it's almost the way everyone uses AFs + close down, which in theory should be even greater, but...
AF is go to for most formations and he won't make a tactic worse, it's that simple
PF or DLF need very certain conditions to outperform AF
and don't forget of possible changes in ME with patches
like, do I want such position of 1 of my 3 strikers at counter?
the answer is YES
but most people would prefer Firmino to be way more further
just do it already, as I'm getting cancer thinking, that I've found decent tweak and it's not xD
anyway, I'm enjoying to play with v2 at my 2 saves, but would be nice if someone could bring 3atb to the next step
And yeah, I know, they usually leads to smth even worse xD
I've decided that very first variation or at least v2 in balanced and cautious mentality is enough for my save, when I play in Europe, table of tested tactics in GA perspective says it all I guess
But at Hungarian League I wanna smash opposition with Ferencvarosi.
That's not like I don't already, but I need a real smash
So, ATTACKING incoming (+2IF and AF version, as it showed better results GD wise against 5221, which AI loves to use when wants to park the bus, but it has big problem against good 4231 and 451, specially in away games, so it's ok to switch to this version only against buses)
Main problem during test tbh was to see all match results no matter how it ended up, to see if I got FMed in even game or mb I had an advantage and it was just bad days for conversion chances to goals, or mb it was lose game that my side somehow converted into win(not a good sign), as that's not only you who becomes FMed - sometime AI struggle too.
So, I needed to see suspicious games when I got W w/o any real advantage just by luck, or got bad luck and got D or L in game, when I should win.
I didn't count real even games(less then 0.5 xG diff), except it at home and vs weaker opps, as it just normal and can turn either side.
With this approach in mind it was only 1 game in 3 runs where I've clearly lose it with no chance, and it was away against City, so not a big problem (or it is as it was -2 xG).
so I've took V3 as base (just because it's easier to change SPs in this) and made it 3412 from 3421
mentality -> attack
-be expressive
-counter-press
distribution without specific positions
D-line -> standard
AF: -tight marking and roam + short pass
AM -> SS: -marking and holding ball and position since at banned by passives
CWBsup -> WBatt: only hard tackle
VOLsup -> DMsup: with tackle, dribble and risky passes
BPD: central one with hard tackle and tight marking, left and right just with passives
SKatt -> SKde - i don't want risky runs at GK position with attacking mentality
screenshots are from last of 3 runs (avg is 100pts)
Spoiler
Made up from v2: so again not minimalistic (many Tis and PIs)
PFde -> F9 (he just need a chance xD), AF -> AMatt as they seem more stable than SS, and 1 player in attacking trio with dribble (f9) is enough
Vol -> DMde (it's already more then enough players at attacking phase), central BPD -> libero to help at posession (yeah, its a poison pill, since now it sometimes doesn't hurry up to be back at defense but whatever, just need another man at central circle at many buildups if there's no chance for fast breakthrough)
sometimes you getting FMed hard
but overall it's ok
+ version for those, who has good AMs, not like Pool ones
-overlaps -cross often from wings, +underlaps
Spoiler
took v1 as base and went with more simplistic approach
width and passing to standard
mentality to balanced
minus play approach, work ball into box and dribbles
minus counter-press, + quick throws w/o specific position to distribute
+high D-line to make life easier in transitions, can be dropped to standard in case of slow defs in squad
AF -> PF sup(I just love PFs), IF att -> IF sup, WB att - FB att (my favorite from now on, as they give simplicity with just forward runs and crosses, not even from byline, w/o dribbling and other fancy stuff), SK def -> SK att to actually prevent some through ball (even on Sup it wasn't enough)
PIs minimal (only tackle hard for every player), and leaved roam for PFs and stay wide for IFs
changed SPs
some results
Spoiler
added version with double AF too. It have to score more, but I'm just prefer PFs
Spoiler
it's a mistake
DMed Zippo already, I've got wrong file to upload for 2.2 :/
As a base - v2
PFde -> Enganche sup
AF -> SS
from result point: Pool is definitely strong as a team itself, but have very so-so players for AM positions, still it managed to score more than City + good def
not yours test league
just have a custom db savegame to make quick runs, which saves time like x2 compare to normal holiday runs
and v2 had +9 pts avg in it
and in yours it's very clear to see v2 got less sum of pts
p.s. my bad, I didn't say it clear at the initial post
as I definitely in love with volantes in this version and FM clearly says it's best to use in pair with anchor why don't try this + meta
v2.2 (v2.1 has VOLat, but as I mainly test top side with Pool and their central midfielders don't like forward runs at all, then ehhrrr...)
meta-meta PIs:
just tackle harder across all positions
kinda meta TIs:
minimalistic, no work ball into box aka shoot less often, no run at defense aka dribble more
almost clean approach, just + underlaps (didn't test it yet, but I'm in big hope that roaming cwbs should help with them)
shorter pass
standard def line
shape and result
Spoiler
v2.21 (all the same besides 2xAF - > 2xIF, just because many teams have inverted wingers or insides, and not many - 3 great natural forwards)
Spoiler
P.S. later will try lone forward one with meta AF instead of PFde
changed TIs
Cautious -> Balanced
+Distribute to CBs, because wings too often are far away running forward for gk to distribute
changed PIs
SKde -> SKsu (too many strange decisions with Def duty, too often don't try to interrupt deep through balls), WBat -> CWBsu (need more roam, and wanted to get rid of passive cross from byline)
-shoot less, dribble and hard tackle from all positions
- man marking from wings
result
Spoiler
and for those who wanna stay with cautious xD
523 formation
A striker on Defense duty
and it got 54 points!!
it wasn't supposed to be cautious, tested attacking at first, but it was kinda fun, that cautious can score a lot, at least with top side
and PFde is just perfect sometimes at helping midfielders with buildup
E.g. I've transferred SPs routines from 433 to 343 and they were all messed up: attacking right corner at 433 were dcr to near post and dcl marking GK, and when transferred its dmc staying on gk mark and not one of 3 centre defs
as a result I had to fix almost all positions in SP's setup
fair point
I've tried varieties of 343 and at one run I just literally forgot to change TIs with high LoE and D-line to test cautious mentality, and somehow it worked xD
tested with Liverpool and Bournemouth
list of versions:
V2 - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17178/
v2.2 and v2.21 - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17203/
strikerless - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17238/
v3 + underlaps - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17329/
attacking - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17404/
positive - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17509/
3 pressing forwards at front and 3/4 team press - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17572/
balanced 3412 - https://fm-arena.com/find-comment/17839/