Mark said: I tested Motion and Viola. Motion is our best so far and cant seem to beat it. Viola wasnt far off. If they are the same it could be the structural change into Phoenix tactic that differed. I tried to adjust the ones that had a different structure. Expand
They aren't the same, to be honest with Voila I even messed up one side of defensive corner, because I think I've loaded them from one of my tactics and didn't adjust them, so you have stuff like volante staying forward, or a big hole in the middle of the box where there are no players (to be honest I'm pretty surprised I've managed to get 7.0 rating with that kind of setup). Motion has much more refined set pieces, both defensively and offensively.
Filer974 said: Hi, do you think this tactic still works Expand
Depends on your definition of tactic "working". Would it get 6.0+ score on fmarena? Probably not. Can you still get good results with it? Yes, I've used tactics rated under 6 here, and with the right squad, training and morale management still overachieved. It's just that these tactics aren't as plug&play and consistent as the top ones.
I've run a quick Liverpool test, with a slightly tweaked for FM21, version of this tactic and still got 100 points and won FA Cup, so if you're really interested I can post it here. Just don't expect anything crazy, because if you're looking solely for results, there are better tactics out there.
skywalk3r83 said: Hi! Who takes the corners and throw in? Any OI? Expand
ML takes left corner, MR takes right corner, DL takes left throw-in DR takes right. These should be set up by default (when you go to the corner setup you'll notice ML/MR have "TK" next to them), but you're probably safer also setting it up yourself. No Ois used.
Would it be possible to test foot strength at some point? All players in the test league have one foot set to "reasonable" and one to "very strong", I was wondering how big the impact would be if "reasonable" was changed to "very weak".
I'm not 100% sure about TI and PI not stacking - tackle harder and Get Stuck In should be the same thing, but if you have tackle harder on every player and then add Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity increases - it works the same the other way around, if you start removing tackle harder PI from tactic that has Get Stuck In, the tactic intensity decreases anyway.
Mark Tighter said: I'm insinuating that probably that's the reason why Knap's tactics where always tested before other tactics, like someone else said people have to wait for the 200 tactics of Knap to be tested before. Expand
It's only natural, that if they pick tactics at random, and there are so many Knap tactics, that some of his tactics will be tested first - it's simple probability.
I use both sites, both sites use different methods of testing, and both sites are testing the tactics entirely for free, benefiting the FM community. No need to be unnecessarily hostile by throwing accusations.
In the original version of the tactic I've used CD's instead of Ball Playing Defenders, because with very attacking mentality (and with pass into space TI), if you have BPD's who by default have "take more risks" PI, there is a good chance your defenders are just going to lose the ball a lot because they will try to play through balls over the opposition defence or just very risky long passes to the other side of the pitch - you don't see this stuff playing on extended/key highlights, because the game is not going to show you a highlight of your player just losing the ball, but it happens, and it can happen quite a bit, over the course of the game.
Of course, if you have a quality team with good enough players, that have good decisions and passing you can have a lot of success with BPD's, I just think CD's are a generally more consistent option for this type of tactic.
skywalk3r83 said: Nice. I will try this with one of my saves. Who takes the corners? Expand
MR takes right, ML takes left, but if you have someone with a really high corner attribute (16+) you can have them taking it instead and it should probably work pretty good as well.
Small tweaks after playing a full season with Schalke:
Central Defenders -> BPD Distribution to full-backs instead of flanks Added "move into channels" and "roam from position" to attacking midfielder Changed defending corners - really happy with that one, not a single goal conceded from corners entire season Small positioning change in attacking corners to better prevent counter-attacks
Finally played a full proper season myself, taking care of everything - Schalke media prediction 10th, I've bought only 2 players (wonderkid Marcus Edwards and right-back Josha Vagnoman). Finished 2nd behind Bayern with a pretty good point total and won the DFB-Pokal.
(All the players transfers made 17/8 and before weren't made by me)
Still not 100% happy with the AMCL position, but the tweaks make it a little better from my experience.
Not a single goal conceded from the new defensive corners
Time-wasting tactic that I started to use later in the season, to defend leads late in the game:
ta2199 said: I know but I have " Red Cards Issue " with v2.0. I mean a lots of red cards Expand
Set something like this for your code of conduct:
I use it for all my saves, harsh penalties for all the bookings, but players always accept it without complaining, and I never have problems with red cards with that setup.
Paul said: Hi @Egraam I really like this tactic, what do you do away against tough opposition or when your a couple of goals up to tighten it up at the back? is lowering mentality enoough? Expand
There is a number of different things you could do, depending on how much do you want to tighten up - lowering the mentality (to something like positive) is the first thing you could do if you just want to slow down a little without going into full defensive mode or are just looking to play a bit safer away.
If your only goal is to defend the lead in the last 10-15 minutes you could turn on time wasting to max, lower the tempo, shorten the passing range and go for "hold shape" instead of "counter".
Here's an example of time-wasting version that I made, that you could use in the last minutes of the game to defend the lead - aside from the things I mentioned above it utilises much more defensive version of attacking corners and throw-ins (made specifically with time-wasting in mind). If you still find yourself leaking goals at the end of the games, you could go for cautious mentality, turn off counter-press and change wing-backs to full-backs to play even more defensive.
UPDATE: Version V2 (added the same info to the main post, the tactic file is there):
List of changes: Passing: Shorter -> Slightly More Direct (2 ticks up) Tempo 1 tick down (but it stays as Slightly Higher due to changes in passing) Removed Pass Into Space Removed Overlaps Removed Distribute to Fullbacks Central Defenders -> Ball Playing Defenders (with a couple PIs added) Changes to set pieces (defending corners, attacking free kicks, attacking corners)
Should definitely improve consistency of the tactic. Undefeated season in a test run with Liverpool - undefeated in league and didn't even drop a single game in cups, won everything. I'd appreciate it if it could be tested at some point - much more consistent in my tests than the V1 version that was tested.
Mystesis said: @Egraam Thank you for your tactics and advice, but what training schedules would you use when there are 2 games per week? Expand
A lot depends on what teams are you facing that week and how strong is your team - the stronger your team and the weaker the opposition, the less match preparation training you need to do - because you should be able to win without it, so you can replace it with some normal training sessions. Match preperation training is the one that gives you bonuses for next game - Att. Movement/Def. Shape/Teamwork/Set Pieces/Team Bonding.
This is an example of what you could use:
You can tweak Mondays however you want to - Physical & Outfield & Recovery is just a pretty balanced day of training that works on all the attributes without being too intensive, but if you have a lot of 2 game weeks one after another, you can go for example do, Defending Engaged & Defending from the Front & Transition Press on Monday one week, then next week go for Attacking Patient & Attacking Overlap & Transition Press, and then the next one do Chance Creation & Ground Defence & Chance Conversion, and like that focus on something different every Monday. I just try to keep the defensive & attacking unit equally occupied every day, so there isn't a situation when one unit is over-training and risking an injury, while the other one is doing nothing.
Keakiwi said: Hey @Egraam with these shouts, when do you use them during a match and how often? Expand
I usually start around 15 minute mark, and then use them whenever possible, but when I see that a shout isn't working (smiley faces below the players don't turn green), I'll wait a bit longer before using another one.
babemocni1988 said: Strange..I am wondering what kind of CA have Team B in FM arena test League?Can anyone give me that info? Thanks in advance! Expand
Alexander said: Here are some highlights of our new tactic testing league:
- Underdog Team(low rep) and Favorite Team(high rep) are gone. Now all teams in the league have the same reputation, we find this would be more appropriate because all teams in the league are about the same in quality.
- There are 2 teams in the league under our control (Team A and Team B), there's no difference between them and we did that just to double the number of matches we test per one run.
- Each tactic will be given at least 3 runs(for total 456 matches) and that guarantees extreme accuracy.
- We tuned some attributes of the players(Work Rate, Heading, Dribbling and some other attributes).
These are some tips to make the tactic more effective:
Shouts: If you're a favorite: Winning by 2+ goals: Use Praise Drawing: Use Encourage Losing: Use Demand More
If you're an underdog: Winning: Use Praise Drawing/Losing by 1 goal: Use Encourage Losing: Use Demand More
These are the shouts I've found to work the best so far.
Training:
Individual training: Set to the roles players play in General training: I do a lot of tweaks week by week but these are the basic schedules I use:
Free week (international break, no games):
Balanced - used early in the season, when players are still not at full tactical familiarity, learning a tactic. Also throw it in later every once in a while even after you've learned the tactic so the players can work a little on the attributes they don't train in the focused session:
Focused - used after gaining tactical familiarity, focuses on the most important attributes for the tactic, replace attacking movement with defensive shape when you're a weaker team playing away:
I don't use "rest" session at all - if you manage workload properly it's never needed so it's just a waste of a training block. If you want to use rest, use recovery instead - it's a far superior session - it doesn't reduce match sharpness as much and it reduces injury risk greatly.
babemocni1988 said: 20 goals Van Dijk?Jusus wao!Who takes corners by the way?Any OI? Expand
MR takes right corner, ML takes left corner but if you have someone with a really high corner attribute (16+) and wingers with it really low (below 10) it's probably better to have the player with really good corners take it, how players are positioned is important but a well delivered ball can also make a big difference. No Oi used.
God said: 1 or 2 more months and all tactics are tweaked from Knap , we have like 100000 tactics and almost all the designs in the world so no one can make a new tactic , is all Knap copys .
This tactic is better that Knap in goal difference the test is there. Expand
No, this is an actual Knap's tactic tweak, not just people saying it's similiar to Knap's tactic. Unless a guy from FMKorea for some unknown reason uses a tactical style called "BRUGERDEFINERET CUSTOM TILPASSET TIKI-TAKA" and names his corners and throw-ins "!!BEO442".
If you're making your own tactics there's really nothing to be afraid about, it's easy to tell when something is a tweak and when it isn't.
I've tried mezzalas in many different formations where they should theoretically work well, but like you said results were disappointing. I find carilleros to be more effective if in need of wide midfield player, but this is a much more supporting/defensive role so would need to be paired with something more attacking.
Wingbacks sometimes leave the flank open, and watching the games I'd say it's the main source of threat from opposition with this tactic, so I tried forcing opposition inside to deal with that issue - it did it's job because I started conceding much less from crosses, but then through balls become a problem. Pretty hard to find balance in defence this year - last year's top tactics were all conceding around a goal per game, this year there is still a lot of variance because we're early in the patch, but 1.4-1.5 seems to be the norm.
They aren't the same, to be honest with Voila I even messed up one side of defensive corner, because I think I've loaded them from one of my tactics and didn't adjust them, so you have stuff like volante staying forward, or a big hole in the middle of the box where there are no players (to be honest I'm pretty surprised I've managed to get 7.0 rating with that kind of setup). Motion has much more refined set pieces, both defensively and offensively.
I've updated set pieces, changed passing to standard, dropped the defensive line to standard and added low crosses.
Depends on your definition of tactic "working". Would it get 6.0+ score on fmarena? Probably not. Can you still get good results with it? Yes, I've used tactics rated under 6 here, and with the right squad, training and morale management still overachieved. It's just that these tactics aren't as plug&play and consistent as the top ones.
I've run a quick Liverpool test, with a slightly tweaked for FM21, version of this tactic and still got 100 points and won FA Cup, so if you're really interested I can post it here. Just don't expect anything crazy, because if you're looking solely for results, there are better tactics out there.
ML takes left corner, MR takes right corner, DL takes left throw-in DR takes right. These should be set up by default (when you go to the corner setup you'll notice ML/MR have "TK" next to them), but you're probably safer also setting it up yourself. No Ois used.
V2.1 (results from 21.3):
It's only natural, that if they pick tactics at random, and there are so many Knap tactics, that some of his tactics will be tested first - it's simple probability.
I use both sites, both sites use different methods of testing, and both sites are testing the tactics entirely for free, benefiting the FM community. No need to be unnecessarily hostile by throwing accusations.
Of course, if you have a quality team with good enough players, that have good decisions and passing you can have a lot of success with BPD's, I just think CD's are a generally more consistent option for this type of tactic.
MR takes right, ML takes left, but if you have someone with a really high corner attribute (16+) you can have them taking it instead and it should probably work pretty good as well.
Central Defenders -> BPD
Distribution to full-backs instead of flanks
Added "move into channels" and "roam from position" to attacking midfielder
Changed defending corners - really happy with that one, not a single goal conceded from corners entire season
Small positioning change in attacking corners to better prevent counter-attacks
Finally played a full proper season myself, taking care of everything - Schalke media prediction 10th, I've bought only 2 players (wonderkid Marcus Edwards and right-back Josha Vagnoman). Finished 2nd behind Bayern with a pretty good point total and won the DFB-Pokal.
(All the players transfers made 17/8 and before weren't made by me)
Still not 100% happy with the AMCL position, but the tweaks make it a little better from my experience.
Not a single goal conceded from the new defensive corners
Time-wasting tactic that I started to use later in the season, to defend leads late in the game:
And my entire roster:
Set something like this for your code of conduct:
I use it for all my saves, harsh penalties for all the bookings, but players always accept it without complaining, and I never have problems with red cards with that setup.
There is a number of different things you could do, depending on how much do you want to tighten up - lowering the mentality (to something like positive) is the first thing you could do if you just want to slow down a little without going into full defensive mode or are just looking to play a bit safer away.
If your only goal is to defend the lead in the last 10-15 minutes you could turn on time wasting to max, lower the tempo, shorten the passing range and go for "hold shape" instead of "counter".
Here's an example of time-wasting version that I made, that you could use in the last minutes of the game to defend the lead - aside from the things I mentioned above it utilises much more defensive version of attacking corners and throw-ins (made specifically with time-wasting in mind). If you still find yourself leaking goals at the end of the games, you could go for cautious mentality, turn off counter-press and change wing-backs to full-backs to play even more defensive.
Version V2 (added the same info to the main post, the tactic file is there):
List of changes:
Passing: Shorter -> Slightly More Direct (2 ticks up)
Tempo 1 tick down (but it stays as Slightly Higher due to changes in passing)
Removed Pass Into Space
Removed Overlaps
Removed Distribute to Fullbacks
Central Defenders -> Ball Playing Defenders (with a couple PIs added)
Changes to set pieces (defending corners, attacking free kicks, attacking corners)
Should definitely improve consistency of the tactic. Undefeated season in a test run with Liverpool - undefeated in league and didn't even drop a single game in cups, won everything. I'd appreciate it if it could be tested at some point - much more consistent in my tests than the V1 version that was tested.
A lot depends on what teams are you facing that week and how strong is your team - the stronger your team and the weaker the opposition, the less match preparation training you need to do - because you should be able to win without it, so you can replace it with some normal training sessions. Match preperation training is the one that gives you bonuses for next game - Att. Movement/Def. Shape/Teamwork/Set Pieces/Team Bonding.
This is an example of what you could use:
You can tweak Mondays however you want to - Physical & Outfield & Recovery is just a pretty balanced day of training that works on all the attributes without being too intensive, but if you have a lot of 2 game weeks one after another, you can go for example do, Defending Engaged & Defending from the Front & Transition Press on Monday one week, then next week go for Attacking Patient & Attacking Overlap & Transition Press, and then the next one do Chance Creation & Ground Defence & Chance Conversion, and like that focus on something different every Monday. I just try to keep the defensive & attacking unit equally occupied every day, so there isn't a situation when one unit is over-training and risking an injury, while the other one is doing nothing.
Keakiwi said: Hey @Egraam with these shouts, when do you use them during a match and how often?
I usually start around 15 minute mark, and then use them whenever possible, but when I see that a shout isn't working (smiley faces below the players don't turn green), I'll wait a bit longer before using another one.
Alexander said: Here are some highlights of our new tactic testing league:
- Underdog Team(low rep) and Favorite Team(high rep) are gone. Now all teams in the league have the same reputation, we find this would be more appropriate because all teams in the league are about the same in quality.
- There are 2 teams in the league under our control (Team A and Team B), there's no difference between them and we did that just to double the number of matches we test per one run.
- Each tactic will be given at least 3 runs(for total 456 matches) and that guarantees extreme accuracy.
- We tuned some attributes of the players(Work Rate, Heading, Dribbling and some other attributes).
- We optimized the AI tactics.
This is from last year, from here: https://fm-arena.com/thread/269-migrating-to-a-new-tactic-testing-league/ but I think the test league still works the same so Team A and Team B should be identical.
Shouts:
If you're a favorite:
Winning by 2+ goals: Use Praise
Drawing: Use Encourage
Losing: Use Demand More
If you're an underdog:
Winning: Use Praise
Drawing/Losing by 1 goal: Use Encourage
Losing: Use Demand More
These are the shouts I've found to work the best so far.
Training:
Individual training: Set to the roles players play in
General training: I do a lot of tweaks week by week but these are the basic schedules I use:
Free week (international break, no games):
Balanced - used early in the season, when players are still not at full tactical familiarity, learning a tactic. Also throw it in later every once in a while even after you've learned the tactic so the players can work a little on the attributes they don't train in the focused session:
Focused - used after gaining tactical familiarity, focuses on the most important attributes for the tactic, replace attacking movement with defensive shape when you're a weaker team playing away:
I don't use "rest" session at all - if you manage workload properly it's never needed so it's just a waste of a training block. If you want to use rest, use recovery instead - it's a far superior session - it doesn't reduce match sharpness as much and it reduces injury risk greatly.
MR takes right corner, ML takes left corner but if you have someone with a really high corner attribute (16+) and wingers with it really low (below 10) it's probably better to have the player with really good corners take it, how players are positioned is important but a well delivered ball can also make a big difference. No Oi used.
This tactic is better that Knap in goal difference the test is there.
No, this is an actual Knap's tactic tweak, not just people saying it's similiar to Knap's tactic. Unless a guy from FMKorea for some unknown reason uses a tactical style called "BRUGERDEFINERET CUSTOM TILPASSET TIKI-TAKA" and names his corners and throw-ins "!!BEO442".
If you're making your own tactics there's really nothing to be afraid about, it's easy to tell when something is a tweak and when it isn't.
Wingbacks sometimes leave the flank open, and watching the games I'd say it's the main source of threat from opposition with this tactic, so I tried forcing opposition inside to deal with that issue - it did it's job because I started conceding much less from crosses, but then through balls become a problem. Pretty hard to find balance in defence this year - last year's top tactics were all conceding around a goal per game, this year there is still a lot of variance because we're early in the patch, but 1.4-1.5 seems to be the norm.