Flashedmind said: Having analysed this post and related posts and discussions on training schedules, I think I agree with one of ZaZ's comments that you can use the physical attribute maximisation schedule in the youth team and then use the D6 schedule for the first team.
The most interesting finding to me is that you can "cheat" a player's CA-PA ratio if you have the time for it. The schedules show that you can increase a player's CA by around 5-6 per year, all of these points distributed across paca-acc-jump (e.g +2 in each). The main advantage is that you retain the player's PA, because you don't "waste" it on other, less important attributes (which is sad but true in current engine). If you do this from ages 15-18, you can add +6 to pace-acc-jump which is a lot, and then shift towards the schedules that focus on CA growth when the player goes to first team.
Practical example: let's say player has 80 CA and 150 PA, which means that 70 CA can still be attributed in development. If you use the D6 schedule, the player will grow 25 CA per year, of which 5 goes into pace-acc-jump and 20 into other attributes. This means that after 3 years the player will have reached their potential and the distribution of attributes will be on a ratio 1/4 physical/other.
For the same example, if you use the physical attribute maximising schedule, after 3 years the player will have gone from 70 CA to around 85 CA with all increases in attributes in pace-acc-jump (around +5 each). The difference is that the player still has a lot of their potential to be fulfilled, and then you can switch to the D6 schedule once the desired physical attributes are reached. The 85 CA player still has 65 CA to fill in, meaning that another 2-3 years of using D6 schedule can be used to maximise CA growth whilst still developing the physicals.
If you use the physical schedule for 5 years, the player should have around +10 in pace-acc-jump and then have 40 CA left to distribute across mental/technicals, which is still a lot if you can pick the attributes to be developed.
In other words, if you have the time, you can finetune a player's development by first allowing their physicals to be developed greatly and then shifting to other attributes whilst not neglecting physicals.
Im aware that overall, playing matches is most important and that the player's hidden attributes are a decisive factor. I'm also well aware that a lot more discussions can be had on this matter and that further finetuning of these findings is necessary (e.g. the impact of coaching staff, the negative impact on team cohesion or tactical familiarity of the schedules).
Thoughts? Expand
You are misunderstanding what training does in FM and those test.
If you create a player with all stats 1 and your put a PA 200 after that your player stats distribuiting will go totaly nuts.
You guys should check with in-game players in order to understand how this works.
I took 3 traning routines :
One is all up to your Assistant manager, one is this super rest and Zaz updated.
Since it tooks ages to track every player progession i took a portion of those that plays more and check things out, to how those stats were distribuited.
i did run x3 Runs for every schedule, isn't much but literally took me 3 hours. Point is CA distribuition is the almost the same and literally feels like "RNG" is involved in there or it's basically some stats ain't getting +1 cuz they didn't reach 0.50 etc that's how the "color of those arrow should work".
Now we saying that super rest only cares about pace acceleration and jumping reach in-growth
It's not true, since now taking an example Sylla :
With AM's routines :
With Super Rest :
With Zaz :
It's full of those example, for me training in FM is just about to keep your players condition/sharpness and team cohesion up.
This is how it works in-game, i am doing a pentagon and before this post i was even just giving manual rest 1 or 2 days to my players after the game.
One of my pentagon kids as example, literally i was on individual with AM and didn't even touch it for like 2 years in-game.
Conclusion is there are many factors that make your wonderkids grow, like personality, hiddens etc.
I don't know how you people came to the conclusion that you can create a 20 pace or 20 acceleration player if he ain't supposed to go to that.
So, play your kids or loan them out and check if they dev or not.
About routines i am using a tweak version of super rest and it feels like i am literally cheating since my players are always full condition and ready to play.
here is the live, where i literally used that kind of approach, that's pretty similar with the rest and destroy i was using before (tweak of cadoni's routine on FM23).
alexej said: A lot has been written in this thread, so what is the best training schedule for maximum increase in CA if you don't mind which attributes are increased? Expand
Routines doesn't matter, it's game time that make your kid grow or not.
I am checking with in-game players, no dummies 10/10 and 200 PA which imo is totaly useless thing to do, since the game will go spaghetti and you will get some mutant in-return.
It's feels like a lotto and the game distribuite those stats,focus or no focus.
Checked with everything up to AM/this one and now checking ZAZ. Point is from your routine you want to keep good condition/sharpness and some team cohesion.
Stuaret said: How did your save go with those players? I would like to know the opinion of someone who has tried "only - meta attributes - players" in a real scenario.
Thank you very much! Expand
Won everything, i even made a run with all "maeda" and "zouma" physical attribute :
First of all, how can you even compare the things, back then ANYTHING would work, you could break the engine even with a preset tactic. This "defensive thing" you believe was made with logic, it's not.
You believe is gegen, you can even take off counter-press it matter 1-2 points at maximum.
Problem lies on Trigger press, if you reduce it even on 3/4 you gonna suffer like hell. Why? Because you need to compensate with OIs where your boys are gonna apply "pressing" and on which roles. You want a game, put your crap-in aka plugNplay and enjoy your time,not a "simulator".
Explain me, how do you believe back then "pressing how was handled"? "mixed" which means? You don't really know, me either.
- I mean, i did already had a discussion about "pressing", but do you really believe they don't apply pressing while playing? Mourinho,Allegri name whoever you believe play a defensive style.
So, they give up the ball, they don't apply pressing, they only park 11 men? And how do i make my "counter" work at that point? From GK? Because we are busy to pray that KDB didn't shoot from 20 meter free to do that?
I do agree that is literally insane that low block is so bad, but what means bad? to me means -11, in game how is gonna be translated?
"let's take a look, by simulating with West ham", i just did modify a bit the "preset-given",
Every preset from SI is obscene shit, just saying.
Since for me simulation is literally useless it self gonna take your same "test-concept". 20-games proof. (Which is insane, even to believe it, but i will play along)
21 games 31 points with low block much lower system, which is not even that much "obscene" compared to your "gegen-press's theory".
- But, i've used a 4231 system, so it might be a lie since the "shape" is top tier.
Let's build a 4141, but using some "game-logic"
Doesn't really exist, from preset, so we go advanced mode.
I present you Obscene2 :
This time i went even more "spicy", let some direct pass on, because i am curious, didn't want literally cannibalizate the poor "preset".
Seem very fine to me :
Now for the last touch i will even try "defensive", which mean my players will not really run around.
Obscene3:
This time gonna apply some more magic on it :
-Removed focus -Distribuite Quickly
Unlucky, poor Zouma boy was even injuried... w/e that's a simulation for you :
BOOM?
I mean, so for the global concept of the community this thing would never did anything. If we are lucky this tactic can score 40? 35? EVEN 30? We are more on josh's field here.
Maybe we strike the most lucky RNG wave that only god knows, but at the end of the day this is what make you joy to play? Play it.
You don't need 65 top rate tactic in order to achieve something, you need players. This is what any manager ask for.
I did choose on porpuse "roles" that are not even in-meta at least on FM-Arena. You can play literally the hell you want, but jesus apply some "meta-sense".
You don't need even go to super mega Trigger press much higher if you apply OIs, without them, you literally gonna conced the pitch to the AI. That's why you gonna get walked-on.
Keep in mind if 38 vacation-simulation doesn't mean anything i won't even know how we believe 21 will do. You are not the first to bring out something like that, that's why i played along with this.
NewbiePlay said: Is it possible to create this system with different leagues for test league purposes? @letsgo9 Expand
You can create anything you want, that test was trully bad composed btw. Or you copy the stats from Dzek or arena's save or you can do average stats of EPL (example) and go with that.
TurtleKing said: Don't think there's too much to gain by throw-ins, especially attacking ones. On attack you can only choose between retain possession and work the line. I've always used retain possession because I wanna keep the ball and not risking giving the ball away cheaply. But work the line is interesting, and it would be good to know which one is better.
Only on Attacking third, and if you choose Long Throw you can switch your players around like on other setpieces. Sure some long-throw tactics can be tested, but doing a short throw seems so good already in attack. Work into box is fine there.
On defensive throw-ins however, there's potensial to make it more solid by either zonal or man-marking, and how many players staying in attack or on edge of the box. Expand
with the 4 men, i generally worked more on defensive approach then anything. Free kicks from zim are working really nice. I even tested all those set pieces around.
Steelwood said: The results on that screenshot are very interesting as it's almost a direct correlation between having more possession and less GD. The game does not want possession football Expand
You can actually go higher but idk yet, will make it maybe on part 2
lagoalaguna said: Yeah, that would explain it. I can understand the rationale behind that decision, but what it seemed to end up doing is turning an already limited meta (gegenpress has always been the go-to for years now) into a pretty much one-dimensional meta.
that's the thing that bothers me right now, I don't want a game-breaking possession tactic, but currently it seems like the game is making me sacrifice possession for xG. Expand
I was doing the video for the Pep's Tactic and i just went to "adaption" to " more possession" ; you can understand your self what is gonna happen.
It's like you sacrifice something to gain some % on possession.
But keep in mind that, there is possession and possession. Like Mourinho's possession is just defenders passing the balls eachother w/o any porpuse. Not even to open any space.
svonn said: I've just tried it, it wasn't very difficult. I've adjusted the values of the TF archetype until the Recommended CA of both players matched. As soon as that was the case, the AI correctly selects the player with the highest star rating for that role - which is the target forward archetype.
Completely agree, Davie Selke is (or was especially in FM23) just another one of those strikers with insane physicals with aggression and bravery, in our online save he had multiple seasons with >40 goals. The very best strikers in the highly competetive online game are those that can also jump, not just run.
I mean roles are pretty much just some presets on the individual instructions with very minor custom coding for some roles (like inverted defenders, segundo volante, etc), but even these minor changes can be fun to use. For the target forwards, you have some unique mechanics, like setting him as priority target for crosses or for the keeper. This, in combination with some PPMs, can make tactics work that just won't work in these simplified test-scenarios. So I do think there are some incentives to at least try to capture some of this in testing, even if not everything can be modelled correctly if we don't get some amazing "sandbox" editor (maybe the switch to unity engine will allow a few more things like that).
I agree, it's the very same thing in real life ratings like sofascore. But still, the top scores in my test case posted above where the TF archetypes, despite them having only 133 suggested CA, while the speedy ones hat 141. Expand
As i said, let it go, you have even have online games speaking of for you. There are many points that are not considerated.
Just consider Jumping reach is the 3rd attribute that "influence" test/me/whatever you want
Height ain't really important, jumping reach is, sometimes follow a link between them sometimes you can find a 190m boy with 15+ jumping reach. You can make experiment around that but you see those stats are correlated somehow.
Now you should literally calculate the different between the 3 pace + 3 Accelaration vs 17/19 Jumping reach.
here some example :
Now if you go and check this Player test Striker you can understand your self without testing that ANY PLAYER WITH EVEN JUMPING REACH will be better then ANY GNOME. Because you simply put on the plate another important attribute that being said coming along with Strenght as well.
Now i don't really know how those attribute were tested here if they considerated the "LINK" between attributes as well or just separately.
About your test, idk something feels off, like some teams weren't really frozen, like the 55 results. I can tell you on my test, i am using beto prototype as Striker and TF isn't really perfoming compared to CF/F9/AF it's like -2/3 results all the time.
Now question is do you care to play your way or do you care about the size of the banana?
I am playing Pep build and i went for Konatè boy :
Cross will come towards him will simply goes to the Winger, since he can't jump, but if wingers will cross low he will score.
And to my experience i would go Pio Terminator instead of Konatè, even if toworrow they will tell me that earth is flat i will go for Terminator, because he can simply trasform those crosses into goals.
- Plus you can focus him even on corners, tactics are not being tested with set pieces as well.
You can compare Mbappè to Haaland as well. Most of people here will go prolly Mbappè at this point
svonn said: Thanks for your reply @Zippo <3 I'll try to keep my points as concise as possible, but if something is unclear, I can elaborate further.
* Attributes that are used for 1v1 comparisons have the highest impact (e.g. physical attributtes + dribbling) * Impact of strength in actual games is severely undererstimated in fm-arena because set pieces cannot be set (Kurt Zouma with 20 stength can easily do >35 goals a season while others with the same jumping reach cannot) * Using Dzek's version of the test league, I've tested TF tactics with default vs TF archetype (e.g. increased jumping, strength, aggression and bravery, but reduces pace, acceleration, dribbling and technique) and the results were way better (High crosses + wingers are useless if strikers can't get to the ball). Here are some results without using set pieces, only a 4-4-2 tactic with reliance on wing play, one TF and one AF in the front:
Vanilla Setup:
TF Archetype for the TF striker:
As you can see, the results were significantly better, more crosses connected and more goals were the result. The used archetype looked like this:
When looking at the average ratings and goals, most player will be this archetype. This might also be due to some slight balancing issues (maybe some other stats have to be reduced more, since jumping reach got a +7), but it the point should still be valid.
Summary: I agree that strength won't do much in this specific test scenario, and I'm 100% sure introducing the archetype wouldn't suddenly change the meta tactics much - but I'm also quite sure we'd see more diverse tactics uploaded that use roles like wingers, target forwards, targeted crossing and high crosses with mid-level success. The only difficulty I see is getting the archtetyp just right so that the AI will assign them correctly.
- - -
Some other points about biases in the attribute testing:
* Using a highly specialiced tactic for attribute testing might introduce some major biases into the resulting data. The selected tactic using "dribble more" on every role, uses the low-possesion, faced-paces and high-press meta. This will likely lead to overestimating the impact any related attributes, while underestimating attributes required for slow build-up play. * A plain increase of some attributes does not account for the different impact that attribute has on CA (for the specfic position) * Increasing/Decreasing some attributes affects all players, while others only affect a few (Unsurprising that physical attributes are relevant for everyone, while some mental attributes barely have any effect for most)
Cheers! :-) Expand
If you don't have API of SI, good luck to teach to the "AI" to how select players for builds scenario.
Rest, is already being said millions of times, the engine is cross-favored, if people believe that is better to have a speedy gnome on the center instead of a Target Forward is their choice and they will just complain : OH,NO MY STRIKER DON'T SCORE OMG OMG BAD TACTIC/BAD ENGINE BLABLABLA, i've read this kind of "feedbacks" so many times that my brain just filtrer out automatically when i face them.
You can play a Target Forward as AF, roles are roles, there is no sky-rocket science being it, sadly.
The only thing i never understood is why players like Beto/Adebayo/Chermiti/Lewin/Doumbia and many others are just not included in the scenario.
Try Adebayo in a lone striker build and compare it to another gnome monster like Karim Konatè.
I mean do you prefer a gnome that can't jump or a Space-Cow that can even Jump?
That's why Haaland is a cheat-code. But you can achieve crazy results even with Pio Esposito Terminator.
Don't get biased by "average rate", it's totaly cosmetic on some roles, why?
Because if a specific player lose alot of "headers" aka Aerial Battle, they will simple get negative rate.
ocarty said: The question is easy. Is there any successful possession style tactic?
In my opinion, it is very difficult, to get at least 60-65% possession per game. With the OP tactics from fm-arena, I had games against the 18th and had 30-35% possession.
Is there any good tactic? I try to adapt (in game tactic) of Arsenal or Manchester City, but it does not work. In attachment, you see 2 examples.
Furthermore, if I choose "much shorter" passing, is that like time-wasting? Expand
It's not like there is no "good" possession tactic, you are just looking on the wrong side of the game.
If you want a 60 rate possession tactic ain't happening on FM, doesn't mean you can't achieve good results with it.
Every TI/PI have pro and cons.
Example if you go play out of defence you will most likely get minus results, but in some shape is working okay.
Dribble less is literally a malus in the engine, work in the ball as well.
And if your players do any kind of mistake, it's gonna be hard to score goals for you.
This is the very reason why defensive builds are not working as well..
And the ultimate master piece of the engine is you don't really need anything of those to achieve "possession", you need just physical dominat players everywhere. You can do a random vacation with any tactic here with city and you will achieve around 50-55% avg possession.
Now, the question is, do you care if you don't win? You want just possession?
- Enjoy your style - Enjoy the Meta
Here an example of Guardiola build, that i am working on :
I just joined Valencia there were 20th super disaster season and i put on that tactic and it turned it out like that for now :
The most interesting finding to me is that you can "cheat" a player's CA-PA ratio if you have the time for it. The schedules show that you can increase a player's CA by around 5-6 per year, all of these points distributed across paca-acc-jump (e.g +2 in each). The main advantage is that you retain the player's PA, because you don't "waste" it on other, less important attributes (which is sad but true in current engine). If you do this from ages 15-18, you can add +6 to pace-acc-jump which is a lot, and then shift towards the schedules that focus on CA growth when the player goes to first team.
Practical example: let's say player has 80 CA and 150 PA, which means that 70 CA can still be attributed in development. If you use the D6 schedule, the player will grow 25 CA per year, of which 5 goes into pace-acc-jump and 20 into other attributes. This means that after 3 years the player will have reached their potential and the distribution of attributes will be on a ratio 1/4 physical/other.
For the same example, if you use the physical attribute maximising schedule, after 3 years the player will have gone from 70 CA to around 85 CA with all increases in attributes in pace-acc-jump (around +5 each). The difference is that the player still has a lot of their potential to be fulfilled, and then you can switch to the D6 schedule once the desired physical attributes are reached. The 85 CA player still has 65 CA to fill in, meaning that another 2-3 years of using D6 schedule can be used to maximise CA growth whilst still developing the physicals.
If you use the physical schedule for 5 years, the player should have around +10 in pace-acc-jump and then have 40 CA left to distribute across mental/technicals, which is still a lot if you can pick the attributes to be developed.
In other words, if you have the time, you can finetune a player's development by first allowing their physicals to be developed greatly and then shifting to other attributes whilst not neglecting physicals.
Im aware that overall, playing matches is most important and that the player's hidden attributes are a decisive factor. I'm also well aware that a lot more discussions can be had on this matter and that further finetuning of these findings is necessary (e.g. the impact of coaching staff, the negative impact on team cohesion or tactical familiarity of the schedules).
Thoughts?
You are misunderstanding what training does in FM and those test.
If you create a player with all stats 1 and your put a PA 200 after that your player stats distribuiting will go totaly nuts.
You guys should check with in-game players in order to understand how this works.
I took 3 traning routines :
One is all up to your Assistant manager, one is this super rest and Zaz updated.
Since it tooks ages to track every player progession i took a portion of those that plays more and check things out, to how those stats were distribuited.
i did run x3 Runs for every schedule, isn't much but literally took me 3 hours. Point is CA distribuition is the almost the same and literally feels like "RNG" is involved in there or it's basically some stats ain't getting +1 cuz they didn't reach 0.50 etc that's how the "color of those arrow should work".
Now we saying that super rest only cares about pace acceleration and jumping reach in-growth
It's not true, since now taking an example Sylla :
With AM's routines :
With Super Rest :
With Zaz :
It's full of those example, for me training in FM is just about to keep your players condition/sharpness and team cohesion up.
This is how it works in-game, i am doing a pentagon and before this post i was even just giving manual rest 1 or 2 days to my players after the game.
One of my pentagon kids as example, literally i was on individual with AM and didn't even touch it for like 2 years in-game.
Conclusion is there are many factors that make your wonderkids grow, like personality, hiddens etc.
I don't know how you people came to the conclusion that you can create a 20 pace or 20 acceleration player if he ain't supposed to go to that.
So, play your kids or loan them out and check if they dev or not.
About routines i am using a tweak version of super rest and it feels like i am literally cheating since my players are always full condition and ready to play.
here is the live, where i literally used that kind of approach, that's pretty similar with the rest and destroy i was using before (tweak of cadoni's routine on FM23).
https://www.youtube.com/live/bCpq_4rXa2k?si=t_vs2AMKR7MLo9-p
Hopes it helps
Routines doesn't matter, it's game time that make your kid grow or not.
I am checking with in-game players, no dummies 10/10 and 200 PA which imo is totaly useless thing to do, since the game will go spaghetti and you will get some mutant in-return.
It's feels like a lotto and the game distribuite those stats,focus or no focus.
Checked with everything up to AM/this one and now checking ZAZ. Point is from your routine you want to keep good condition/sharpness and some team cohesion.
Manual rest is the key.
i am scared even to ask what he meant o.o
Thank you very much!
Won everything, i even made a run with all "maeda" and "zouma" physical attribute :
https://youtube.com/live/c386Ja8eWrA?feature=share
btw i don't know where 9 "meta" attributes come from, since most likely are 4
You believe is gegen, you can even take off counter-press it matter 1-2 points at maximum.
Problem lies on Trigger press, if you reduce it even on 3/4 you gonna suffer like hell. Why? Because you need to compensate with OIs where your boys are gonna apply "pressing" and on which roles. You want a game, put your crap-in aka plugNplay and enjoy your time,not a "simulator".
Explain me, how do you believe back then "pressing how was handled"? "mixed" which means? You don't really know, me either.
- I mean, i did already had a discussion about "pressing", but do you really believe they don't apply pressing while playing? Mourinho,Allegri name whoever you believe play a defensive style.
So, they give up the ball, they don't apply pressing, they only park 11 men? And how do i make my "counter" work at that point? From GK? Because we are busy to pray that KDB didn't shoot from 20 meter free to do that?
I do agree that is literally insane that low block is so bad, but what means bad? to me means -11, in game how is gonna be translated?
"let's take a look, by simulating with West ham", i just did modify a bit the "preset-given",
Every preset from SI is obscene shit, just saying.
Since for me simulation is literally useless it self gonna take your same "test-concept". 20-games proof. (Which is insane, even to believe it, but i will play along)
21 games 31 points with low block much lower system, which is not even that much "obscene" compared to your "gegen-press's theory".
- But, i've used a 4231 system, so it might be a lie since the "shape" is top tier.
Let's build a 4141, but using some "game-logic"
Doesn't really exist, from preset, so we go advanced mode.
I present you Obscene2 :
This time i went even more "spicy", let some direct pass on, because i am curious, didn't want literally cannibalizate the poor "preset".
Seem very fine to me :
Now for the last touch i will even try "defensive", which mean my players will not really run around.
Obscene3:
This time gonna apply some more magic on it :
-Removed focus
-Distribuite Quickly
Unlucky, poor Zouma boy was even injuried... w/e that's a simulation for you :
BOOM?
I mean, so for the global concept of the community this thing would never did anything. If we are lucky this tactic can score 40? 35? EVEN 30? We are more on josh's field here.
Maybe we strike the most lucky RNG wave that only god knows, but at the end of the day this is what make you joy to play? Play it.
You don't need 65 top rate tactic in order to achieve something, you need players. This is what any manager ask for.
I did choose on porpuse "roles" that are not even in-meta at least on FM-Arena. You can play literally the hell you want, but jesus apply some "meta-sense".
You don't need even go to super mega Trigger press much higher if you apply OIs, without them, you literally gonna conced the pitch to the AI. That's why you gonna get walked-on.
Keep in mind if 38 vacation-simulation doesn't mean anything i won't even know how we believe 21 will do. You are not the first to bring out something like that, that's why i played along with this.
My 2 cookies
I could've understand double CF but PF -^
You can create anything you want, that test was trully bad composed btw. Or you copy the stats from Dzek or arena's save or you can do average stats of EPL (example) and go with that.
https://www.deliciousfm.com/tacticlist/tactics/set-pieces-tested/
Curious even about the turtle's ones.
Only on Attacking third, and if you choose Long Throw you can switch your players around like on other setpieces. Sure some long-throw tactics can be tested, but doing a short throw seems so good already in attack. Work into box is fine there.
On defensive throw-ins however, there's potensial to make it more solid by either zonal or man-marking, and how many players staying in attack or on edge of the box.
with the 4 men, i generally worked more on defensive approach then anything. Free kicks from zim are working really nice. I even tested all those set pieces around.
The updated @Delicious routine looks very good. Only just behind in overall points but leading or close to it with all other stats.
i am already working on the finals version, didn't know you could tweak pieces on thrown-in
Testing out now the free kicks method
- Focusing directly your A1
- Worked around defensive as well.
Enjoy
You can actually go higher but idk yet, will make it maybe on part 2
that's the thing that bothers me right now, I don't want a game-breaking possession tactic, but currently it seems like the game is making me sacrifice possession for xG.
I was doing the video for the Pep's Tactic and i just went to "adaption" to " more possession" ; you can understand your self what is gonna happen.
It's like you sacrifice something to gain some % on possession.
But keep in mind that, there is possession and possession. Like Mourinho's possession is just defenders passing the balls eachother w/o any porpuse. Not even to open any space.
Completely agree, Davie Selke is (or was especially in FM23) just another one of those strikers with insane physicals with aggression and bravery, in our online save he had multiple seasons with >40 goals. The very best strikers in the highly competetive online game are those that can also jump, not just run.
I mean roles are pretty much just some presets on the individual instructions with very minor custom coding for some roles (like inverted defenders, segundo volante, etc), but even these minor changes can be fun to use. For the target forwards, you have some unique mechanics, like setting him as priority target for crosses or for the keeper. This, in combination with some PPMs, can make tactics work that just won't work in these simplified test-scenarios. So I do think there are some incentives to at least try to capture some of this in testing, even if not everything can be modelled correctly if we don't get some amazing "sandbox" editor (maybe the switch to unity engine will allow a few more things like that).
I agree, it's the very same thing in real life ratings like sofascore. But still, the top scores in my test case posted above where the TF archetypes, despite them having only 133 suggested CA, while the speedy ones hat 141.
As i said, let it go, you have even have online games speaking of for you. There are many points that are not considerated.
Just consider Jumping reach is the 3rd attribute that "influence" test/me/whatever you want
Height ain't really important, jumping reach is, sometimes follow a link between them sometimes you can find a 190m boy with 15+ jumping reach. You can make experiment around that but you see those stats are correlated somehow.
Now you should literally calculate the different between the 3 pace + 3 Accelaration vs 17/19 Jumping reach.
here some example :
Now if you go and check this Player test Striker you can understand your self without testing that ANY PLAYER WITH EVEN JUMPING REACH will be better then ANY GNOME. Because you simply put on the plate another important attribute that being said coming along with Strenght as well.
Now i don't really know how those attribute were tested here if they considerated the "LINK" between attributes as well or just separately.
About your test, idk something feels off, like some teams weren't really frozen, like the 55 results.
I can tell you on my test, i am using beto prototype as Striker and TF isn't really perfoming compared to CF/F9/AF it's like -2/3 results all the time.
Now question is do you care to play your way or do you care about the size of the banana?
I am playing Pep build and i went for Konatè boy :
Cross will come towards him will simply goes to the Winger, since he can't jump, but if wingers will cross low he will score.
And to my experience i would go Pio Terminator instead of Konatè, even if toworrow they will tell me that earth is flat i will go for Terminator, because he can simply trasform those crosses into goals.
- Plus you can focus him even on corners, tactics are not being tested with set pieces as well.
You can compare Mbappè to Haaland as well. Most of people here will go prolly Mbappè at this point
There are many others aspect to consider as well.
* Attributes that are used for 1v1 comparisons have the highest impact (e.g. physical attributtes + dribbling)
* Impact of strength in actual games is severely undererstimated in fm-arena because set pieces cannot be set (Kurt Zouma with 20 stength can easily do >35 goals a season while others with the same jumping reach cannot)
* Using Dzek's version of the test league, I've tested TF tactics with default vs TF archetype (e.g. increased jumping, strength, aggression and bravery, but reduces pace, acceleration, dribbling and technique) and the results were way better (High crosses + wingers are useless if strikers can't get to the ball). Here are some results without using set pieces, only a 4-4-2 tactic with reliance on wing play, one TF and one AF in the front:
Vanilla Setup:
TF Archetype for the TF striker:
As you can see, the results were significantly better, more crosses connected and more goals were the result. The used archetype looked like this:
When looking at the average ratings and goals, most player will be this archetype. This might also be due to some slight balancing issues (maybe some other stats have to be reduced more, since jumping reach got a +7), but it the point should still be valid.
Summary: I agree that strength won't do much in this specific test scenario, and I'm 100% sure introducing the archetype wouldn't suddenly change the meta tactics much - but I'm also quite sure we'd see more diverse tactics uploaded that use roles like wingers, target forwards, targeted crossing and high crosses with mid-level success. The only difficulty I see is getting the archtetyp just right so that the AI will assign them correctly.
- - -
Some other points about biases in the attribute testing:
* Using a highly specialiced tactic for attribute testing might introduce some major biases into the resulting data. The selected tactic using "dribble more" on every role, uses the low-possesion, faced-paces and high-press meta. This will likely lead to overestimating the impact any related attributes, while underestimating attributes required for slow build-up play.
* A plain increase of some attributes does not account for the different impact that attribute has on CA (for the specfic position)
* Increasing/Decreasing some attributes affects all players, while others only affect a few (Unsurprising that physical attributes are relevant for everyone, while some mental attributes barely have any effect for most)
Cheers! :-)
If you don't have API of SI, good luck to teach to the "AI" to how select players for builds scenario.
Rest, is already being said millions of times, the engine is cross-favored, if people believe that is better to have a speedy gnome on the center instead of a Target Forward is their choice and they will just complain : OH,NO MY STRIKER DON'T SCORE OMG OMG BAD TACTIC/BAD ENGINE BLABLABLA, i've read this kind of "feedbacks" so many times that my brain just filtrer out automatically when i face them.
You can play a Target Forward as AF, roles are roles, there is no sky-rocket science being it, sadly.
The only thing i never understood is why players like Beto/Adebayo/Chermiti/Lewin/Doumbia and many others are just not included in the scenario.
Try Adebayo in a lone striker build and compare it to another gnome monster like Karim Konatè.
I mean do you prefer a gnome that can't jump or a Space-Cow that can even Jump?
That's why Haaland is a cheat-code. But you can achieve crazy results even with Pio Esposito Terminator.
Don't get biased by "average rate", it's totaly cosmetic on some roles, why?
Because if a specific player lose alot of "headers" aka Aerial Battle, they will simple get negative rate.
Hope this help you.
In my opinion, it is very difficult, to get at least 60-65% possession per game. With the OP tactics from fm-arena, I had games against the 18th and had 30-35% possession.
Is there any good tactic? I try to adapt (in game tactic) of Arsenal or Manchester City, but it does not work. In attachment, you see 2 examples.
Furthermore, if I choose "much shorter" passing, is that like time-wasting?
It's not like there is no "good" possession tactic, you are just looking on the wrong side of the game.
If you want a 60 rate possession tactic ain't happening on FM, doesn't mean you can't achieve good results with it.
Every TI/PI have pro and cons.
Example if you go play out of defence you will most likely get minus results, but in some shape is working okay.
Dribble less is literally a malus in the engine, work in the ball as well.
And if your players do any kind of mistake, it's gonna be hard to score goals for you.
This is the very reason why defensive builds are not working as well..
And the ultimate master piece of the engine is you don't really need anything of those to achieve "possession", you need just physical dominat players everywhere. You can do a random vacation with any tactic here with city and you will achieve around 50-55% avg possession.
Now, the question is, do you care if you don't win? You want just possession?
- Enjoy your style
- Enjoy the Meta
Here an example of Guardiola build, that i am working on :
I just joined Valencia there were 20th super disaster season and i put on that tactic and it turned it out like that for now :