The standard place for Genie Scout ratings files is C:\FM Genie Scout 22g\Ratings. If you did a custom install it will be in a folder called Ratings under the FMGS install directory. Once you have copied the file to the correct location you should be able to select my ratings file by clicking on the GS symbol in the top left of the screen, and then clicking Ratings in the drop down menu, and then ykykyky balanced from the sub menu.
Below is the link to the place in this thread where I shared the FM22 default ratings file - post #33.
The problem with trying to produce a ratings file based on the attributes testing from FM Arena is that the for each player will be the same for each position. The only thing that will then impact is the adjustment for their positional rating out of 20 ie you need to multiply their GS Rating by 100% minus the difference between 20 and their positional rating multiplied by 2.5%. For example if their GS rating is 50% and their positional rating is 19, it is 20 - 19= 1 multiplied by 2.5% is 2.5%. Take this off 100% = 97.5% multiplied by 50.00% is 48.75%.
I will give it a go though for a comparison against ykykyky and the default. Expand
Sorted now thanks!
I've run into another problem though. I can't export shortlists from GS. DO you have this issue? I had no problem export a .slf file in FM21 but now they dont appear.
Mark said: @Middleweight165 I have a few comments around your observations above. The FM Arena attribute tests were against all positions in the side so not by position. The machine learning tests were against each of the positions in the ZaZ Blue tactic, GK, DR, DC, DL, DM, MR, MC, ML and ST.
I have tested using the Machine learning findings in positional filters o Genie Scout and find them to be very good. The best players from my team at the end of the season are the ones that were found and are at the top of the list when I use the ratings file.
I also know that if you just use acceleration to pick strikers and wingers you will generally get decent players as I have tried this before. Your observation was that Work Rate was higher for the DM. This is correct and it is worth noting that this is the only position where Work Rate is higher than Acceleration for any of the Machine learning positional analysis. My DMs don't tend to have as high Acceleration numbers as my attacking players.
If you look at the Machine learning numbers for DM, there are values against 36 attributes, so the 90 rating for Work Rate is around 6.2% of the overall rating for that position. You can see from that, if you just pick a DM on the highest rated attribute for the position it might not work too well and it certainly wouldn't be in keeping with what the Machine learning analysis was trying to get across to us. Also, if you chose players using Acceleration and Pace (which tend to be reasonably close numbers for most players), combined they total around 9.3% of the overall rating for the DM position.
I would suggest you use the Genie Scout ratings file it makes it easy and you can compare how all players rate for particular positions you are interested in. I also posted the ratings file on FM Scout. Here is an extract of the response I received:
"I must say that this filter gives way better ratings than the default ratings which comes with Genie Scout. The reason is, I see way more players which perform in-game better than the rest with your filters.
I really thank you for your effort and sharing this! Now I can buy players without having to pray for them to perform in-game" Expand
Thanks for such a detailed reply. I have uploaded your balanced ratings file into Genie Scout. Can I ask does your file override the existing file or do i need to load it in when Im in GS? I copied the file into the ratings folder in the C drive. When clicking between your ratings file and the old one 'Football Manager 2016', the ratings dont seem to change, so I'm wondering if it has automatically updated to yours
ZaZ said: Testing the impact of attributes is something very hard to do, because important attributes for DC are different from important attributes for ST. Basically, you need to test each position/role individually. It's also not something linear, which means the effect from 10 > 12 can be very big, but from 12 > 14 can be negligible. That means there are too many combinations to test, and FM-Arena just doesn't have the resources to do so. What they did was an approximation that is pretty accurate for most cases. We should be thankful they did that when no one else wanted to do it, and appreciate their contribution to FM community.
About the study from the Chinese group, they had more resources since they are a company that works in a basketball game with focus on statistics. That includes machines (possibly a supercomputer), experts in the field of statistics / machine learning, and time. I believe their results are more precise, but you have to consider the difference in their methodology.
For example, the AI made variations in attributes but kept the same CA for players, while in FM-Arena the attributes were changed without considering CA. The result is that attribute weights have direct impact in the Chinese study, while it was not considered by FM-Arena since it wanted to isolate the impact of the attribute.
Again, you have to understand that even if FM-Arena wanted to do a similar methodology, that wouldn't be possible because they just don't have resources to do so. I think FM-Arena's approximation is pretty decent considering how hard it is to test attributes. The Chinese guy itself said they wouldn't be doing any more similar tests using machine learning since the cost was too high to repeat the experiment.
So, in short, FM-Arena's results are different mainly because they are an approximation, and also because they chose to not consider the weight of attributes to CA, which has the potential to counter-balance the impact and make the analysis even harder. Expand
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I understand completely what you're that the FM arena testing is limited because that's all they are capable of doing, but it still provides us with a huge insight into whats important and whats not.
What instigated my question was my assumption that the chinese research was more thorough, therefore a more accurate analysis of which attributes are most important for each position, but it felt to me, and this could just be a personal feeling is that members of this forum have't abandoned the FM Arena test results in favour of the Chinese results and I wanted to know why. Maybe paragraph 3 of your reply provides more info on this.
What is your personal opinion now? Do you follow the Chinese guidelines or the FM Arena ones? For the DM position would you prioritise Work Rate (Chinese) or Acceleration (FM Arena)?
ZaZ said: It can be several reasons. For example, it can be very important until certain value, then less important after some point. Expand
Can you give me a practical example? I don't understand. Looking at the chinese table, for out field players Work Rate is 5th most important for CB, 4th FB, 1st DM, 4th W, 4 AM, 7th ST, so on average should be around the 4th most important attribute. yet on the FM arena testing it is around 23rd
It's quite simple to me. For all positions except central defender you should look for Acceleration, Pace, Dribbling, Anticipation, Stamina and for central defenders you should look Jumping Reach and Strength instead of Dribbling. Expand
Doesn't the work of the chinese forum suggest different though
Why is Work Rate valued so high by the guys from Chinese forum (https://fm-arena.com/attachment/12952/) compared to its impact based on the FM Arena attribute testing?
I am doing a long term save with Chelsea and I want to optimise the player development pathway. Athe the moment this is my process:
1.U18 - play and train in U18
2.Top 2 U19 players - play and train in U18 (England allows 2 U19s to play in u18
3. >U18 and not top 2 - U23 until club grown and developed the appropriate attributes
Heres where things get grey: If I have a top talent who is good enough to be a backup in the first team, should he go there or go on loan? He wont get as many games in the first team as he would going on loan. Also, when should I bring him back to the 1st team backup role? When he's reached his potential? Of course, if he's good enough to be a starter, this is an easy decision
cadoni said: All these attributes, not single alone. Working with Youngsters is equal important like JPA, JPP. Determination is equal important as Motivating.
Any effect of X HoYD require time (probably 2-3 years) and results is not immediate. Expand
But just specifically in terms on the quality of the players in the intake, you think the key attributes for HoYD are: - Negotiating - WWYD - Personality - Preferred formation
From HoYD I would say that Negotiating & Working with Youngsters is two key attributes; since that role working (and negotiating) with players before they appear in the game (like U16 for example). Expand
So when choosing a HoYD i look at: - Personality - Preferred formation
I'm still on FM21 so i believe Negotiating isn't a attribute in this version. WWY tends to be high with top HoYD but Im still 50/50 whether it has any effect
So apart from the 2 things Ive listed, is there anything else I should be looking at when choosing a HoYD?
CBP87 said: Recruitment, the HOYD will look for players to fit his preferred formation. HOYD preferred formation doesnt plays a part in the quality brought through. Quality is based on other factors. Reputation isn't one of them Expand
I should have specified. I meant the "all of that plays a role" part of the post. I don't believe it does. Preferred formation and personality yes, the rest no, in my opinion
cadoni said: All of that plays a role. Like preferred formation of HoYD which has 433 DM Wide, you will often players in ST, AMLR, DM etc positions, not AMC or ML for example (will be rare). Expand
In terms of recruitment and the quality of player in the intake?
Is there any tested mechanism in the game about commercial revenue? Ive never bothered with tours and affiliates because Ive felt it doesnt have any real effect
If you fill those attributes with 20; you will get a CA 200.
It's not only JPA, JPP, Working with Youngsters (which have 4.0 in weighting), but other attributes as well. As everything in the game, attributes plays in combination. To make it more easy understandable: ST with 20 in Finishing, does not mean will score 200 goals. Other combination is essential. Same apply for staff. Expand
But we were talking specifically about recruitment. Its no doubt all these attributes are important in different tasks required by the HOYD but we are trying to pinpoint which one has an effect on the quality of your intake
CBP87 said: Them 3 attributes are classed as key attributes in game and all the sites I've been on are saying these attributes are needed for a good hoyd. As there is a consistency with these attributes appearing on all these different sites, I would say that they are key to having a good hoyd Expand
They're classed as important attirbutes in the game, but I think thats due to how they are used in the game once the youth players are in the 'building' but we are speaking specifically about the recruitment part.
If you use the HoYD to give you reports on your youth players then a higher JPA-JPP is essential but I dont, but in the recruitment stage I dont believe those two stats have any effect.
WWY attribute, i believe is a coaching stat so if you use your HOYD as a coach its important but in the recruitment process again I dont think it has any effect
but I still can't find anything solid about how reputation play's a part Expand
I dont think thats true. JPP JPA are reporting stats and WWY is a coaching stat from what I've read. i dont believe any of these effect the players coming through the door
CBP87 said: Nor do I mate, think I got my wires crossed with reputation and personality Expand
I still think its not clear whether reputation has an effect. Ive seen multiple sources claim both ways and Ive never seen official source comment either way. I ignore but I could be wrong
CBP87 said: Reputation plays a part, the better the reputation the more likely you'll get an excellent intake. Ill try and find the chat on the SI forum which confirmed it. The other things you've listed there are important too especially personality Expand
Thanks, id appreciate that because like I said Ive not seen anything conclusive but doesn't mean its not out there
Link to ykykyky balanced Ratings file
The standard place for Genie Scout ratings files is C:\FM Genie Scout 22g\Ratings. If you did a custom install it will be in a folder called Ratings under the FMGS install directory. Once you have copied the file to the correct location you should be able to select my ratings file by clicking on the GS symbol in the top left of the screen, and then clicking Ratings in the drop down menu, and then ykykyky balanced from the sub menu.
Below is the link to the place in this thread where I shared the FM22 default ratings file - post #33.
Link to default file
The problem with trying to produce a ratings file based on the attributes testing from FM Arena is that the for each player will be the same for each position. The only thing that will then impact is the adjustment for their positional rating out of 20 ie you need to multiply their GS Rating by 100% minus the difference between 20 and their positional rating multiplied by 2.5%. For example if their GS rating is 50% and their positional rating is 19, it is 20 - 19= 1 multiplied by 2.5% is 2.5%. Take this off 100% = 97.5% multiplied by 50.00% is 48.75%.
I will give it a go though for a comparison against ykykyky and the default.
Sorted now thanks!
I've run into another problem though. I can't export shortlists from GS. DO you have this issue? I had no problem export a .slf file in FM21 but now they dont appear.
I have tested using the Machine learning findings in positional filters o Genie Scout and find them to be very good. The best players from my team at the end of the season are the ones that were found and are at the top of the list when I use the ratings file.
I also know that if you just use acceleration to pick strikers and wingers you will generally get decent players as I have tried this before. Your observation was that Work Rate was higher for the DM. This is correct and it is worth noting that this is the only position where Work Rate is higher than Acceleration for any of the Machine learning positional analysis. My DMs don't tend to have as high Acceleration numbers as my attacking players.
If you look at the Machine learning numbers for DM, there are values against 36 attributes, so the 90 rating for Work Rate is around 6.2% of the overall rating for that position. You can see from that, if you just pick a DM on the highest rated attribute for the position it might not work too well and it certainly wouldn't be in keeping with what the Machine learning analysis was trying to get across to us. Also, if you chose players using Acceleration and Pace (which tend to be reasonably close numbers for most players), combined they total around 9.3% of the overall rating for the DM position.
I would suggest you use the Genie Scout ratings file it makes it easy and you can compare how all players rate for particular positions you are interested in. I also posted the ratings file on FM Scout. Here is an extract of the response I received:
"I must say that this filter gives way better ratings than the default ratings which comes with Genie Scout. The reason is, I see way more players which perform in-game better than the rest with your filters.
I really thank you for your effort and sharing this! Now I can buy players without having to pray for them to perform in-game"
Thanks for such a detailed reply. I have uploaded your balanced ratings file into Genie Scout. Can I ask does your file override the existing file or do i need to load it in when Im in GS? I copied the file into the ratings folder in the C drive. When clicking between your ratings file and the old one 'Football Manager 2016', the ratings dont seem to change, so I'm wondering if it has automatically updated to yours
About the study from the Chinese group, they had more resources since they are a company that works in a basketball game with focus on statistics. That includes machines (possibly a supercomputer), experts in the field of statistics / machine learning, and time. I believe their results are more precise, but you have to consider the difference in their methodology.
For example, the AI made variations in attributes but kept the same CA for players, while in FM-Arena the attributes were changed without considering CA. The result is that attribute weights have direct impact in the Chinese study, while it was not considered by FM-Arena since it wanted to isolate the impact of the attribute.
Again, you have to understand that even if FM-Arena wanted to do a similar methodology, that wouldn't be possible because they just don't have resources to do so. I think FM-Arena's approximation is pretty decent considering how hard it is to test attributes. The Chinese guy itself said they wouldn't be doing any more similar tests using machine learning since the cost was too high to repeat the experiment.
So, in short, FM-Arena's results are different mainly because they are an approximation, and also because they chose to not consider the weight of attributes to CA, which has the potential to counter-balance the impact and make the analysis even harder.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I understand completely what you're that the FM arena testing is limited because that's all they are capable of doing, but it still provides us with a huge insight into whats important and whats not.
What instigated my question was my assumption that the chinese research was more thorough, therefore a more accurate analysis of which attributes are most important for each position, but it felt to me, and this could just be a personal feeling is that members of this forum have't abandoned the FM Arena test results in favour of the Chinese results and I wanted to know why. Maybe paragraph 3 of your reply provides more info on this.
What is your personal opinion now? Do you follow the Chinese guidelines or the FM Arena ones? For the DM position would you prioritise Work Rate (Chinese) or Acceleration (FM Arena)?
Can you give me a practical example? I don't understand. Looking at the chinese table, for out field players Work Rate is 5th most important for CB, 4th FB, 1st DM, 4th W, 4 AM, 7th ST, so on average should be around the 4th most important attribute. yet on the FM arena testing it is around 23rd
It's quite simple to me. For all positions except central defender you should look for Acceleration, Pace, Dribbling, Anticipation, Stamina and for central defenders you should look Jumping Reach and Strength instead of Dribbling.
Doesn't the work of the chinese forum suggest different though
1.U18 - play and train in U18
2.Top 2 U19 players - play and train in U18 (England allows 2 U19s to play in u18
3. >U18 and not top 2 - U23 until club grown and developed the appropriate attributes
Heres where things get grey:
If I have a top talent who is good enough to be a backup in the first team, should he go there or go on loan? He wont get as many games in the first team as he would going on loan. Also, when should I bring him back to the 1st team backup role? When he's reached his potential? Of course, if he's good enough to be a starter, this is an easy decision
Any effect of X HoYD require time (probably 2-3 years) and results is not immediate.
But just specifically in terms on the quality of the players in the intake, you think the key attributes for HoYD are:
- Negotiating
- WWYD
- Personality
- Preferred formation
Is that correct?
- Game Importance
- FA Financial Power
- Economic Factor
- State of Development
- Youth Rating
From Club side:
- Youth Coaching
- Youth Facilities
- Youth Recruitment
- Youth Importance
From HoYD I would say that Negotiating & Working with Youngsters is two key attributes; since that role working (and negotiating) with players before they appear in the game (like U16 for example).
So when choosing a HoYD i look at:
- Personality
- Preferred formation
I'm still on FM21 so i believe Negotiating isn't a attribute in this version. WWY tends to be high with top HoYD but Im still 50/50 whether it has any effect
So apart from the 2 things Ive listed, is there anything else I should be looking at when choosing a HoYD?
I should have specified. I meant the "all of that plays a role" part of the post. I don't believe it does. Preferred formation and personality yes, the rest no, in my opinion
In terms of recruitment and the quality of player in the intake?
- Attacking
- Defending
- Fitness
- Mental
- Technical
- Tactical
- Working with Youngsters
- Determination
- Motivating
- People Management
- JPA
- JPP
- JSA
- Negotiating
- Tactical Knowledge
If you fill those attributes with 20; you will get a CA 200.
It's not only JPA, JPP, Working with Youngsters (which have 4.0 in weighting), but other attributes as well. As everything in the game, attributes plays in combination. To make it more easy understandable: ST with 20 in Finishing, does not mean will score 200 goals. Other combination is essential. Same apply for staff.
But we were talking specifically about recruitment. Its no doubt all these attributes are important in different tasks required by the HOYD but we are trying to pinpoint which one has an effect on the quality of your intake
They're classed as important attirbutes in the game, but I think thats due to how they are used in the game once the youth players are in the 'building' but we are speaking specifically about the recruitment part.
If you use the HoYD to give you reports on your youth players then a higher JPA-JPP is essential but I dont, but in the recruitment stage I dont believe those two stats have any effect.
WWY attribute, i believe is a coaching stat so if you use your HOYD as a coach its important but in the recruitment process again I dont think it has any effect
but I still can't find anything solid about how reputation play's a part
I dont think thats true. JPP JPA are reporting stats and WWY is a coaching stat from what I've read. i dont believe any of these effect the players coming through the door
Position and personality as well no?
I still think its not clear whether reputation has an effect. Ive seen multiple sources claim both ways and Ive never seen official source comment either way. I ignore but I could be wrong
found this where a couple of mods have commented
Correct me if Im wrong, but I dont see any reference to HoYD reputation
don't trust a word I say haha
Ha ok, I don't know what to believe now
Thanks, id appreciate that because like I said Ive not seen anything conclusive but doesn't mean its not out there