twistedheat said: I believe baseline stats/hidden attributes/baseline current ability must effect things as well because I thought I'd run a side experiment with Luton. Getting rid of their whole U21 and U18 squad, leaving only the First team squad who can play all positions and have 20s in the top 8 attributes as per FM Arena testing, but 1s everywhere else. Except the goalkeepers, I left them as they were.
The results were horrendous enough to not warrant continuing with these stats.
So whilst the game quite likely is Pace/Acc Manager, I don't quite think it's "Usain Bolt & Win".
What I mean to say is, don't focus only on those stats without hitting some kind of baseline in other stats. I'll see what I need to increase the other stats to, to start getting good results.
Edit: Tested it with increasing the 1s to 5s and the results were drastically different. Crazy. Expand
Thanks for testing this and i agree with you conclusions right, we need a baseline value for other attributes before focusing on the important ones and you can read my thoughts in detail below
sponsorkindest said: Additionally, I have another suggestion @Zippo and @Droid , I don't believe that a player's performance changes linearly in correlation with attribute decreases or increases as my observation is that attributes within a range tend to have similar performance (like 11-13) and the drop off and the gain will be significant if its below 9 or above 15 respectively.
To ensure a comprehensive analysis covering the entire spectrum of attribute values present in the game (usually ranging from 7 to 17), I propose conducting the same testing with a -5 attribute variation. This adjustment would provide better understanding of player performance across different attribute levels. This change if upvotes by enough members in the community can be easily incorporated into the existing attribute testing table. Expand
Additionally, I have another suggestion @Zippo and @Droid , I don't believe that a player's performance changes linearly in correlation with attribute decreases or increases as my observation is that attributes within a range tend to have similar performance (like 11-13) and the drop off and the gain will be significant if its below 9 or above 15 respectively.
To ensure a comprehensive analysis covering the entire spectrum of attribute values present in the game (usually ranging from 7 to 17), I propose conducting the same testing with a -5 attribute variation. This adjustment would provide better understanding of player performance across different attribute levels. This change if upvotes by enough members in the community can be easily incorporated into the existing attribute testing table.
lol, looks none of the attributes work in-game except for like 5 attributes. Lets say there is RNG of around 5-6 then also its doesn't make any sense. This attribute is pure cosmetic.
Wigo said: jesus wtf is going on? :/ i mean so what attributes makes for example striker to score like 35-50 goals a season? just speed and dribbling? becouse i am pretty shure mental attributes will be around 60 points as well :/ i think this year it will be realy nice to test it at seperate positions... Expand
lol, just for fun, you need a guy who can dribble fast into the goals line and you can get your striker to score 50 goals
lol, last year finishing had a decent importance (drop of score from 53 -> 47 when reduced by 4) but in FM 24 another cosmetic attribute. I still believe, maybe a Finishing of 12 is good enuf but 8 (-4) is bad and 17 (+5) is as good as 12 but could be another lie, i am telling myself.
Sorry if this has been already answered, I thought the decision was to do attribute testing after December release, did something change? Just curious question, I don't think we need a re-run given the results are in line with FM23 but just wanted to understand the reasoning
So stupid, man here we are using ML rating, python code, excel sheet, genie scout and FMRTE to get the recruitment right but when in reality all you need a filter with Pace >= 16
I don’t think the end of the season one file was shared for FM 24, by default all players in testing league had around 13 pace in FM 23, so we are looking at a team that has around 18 pace right?
Also no result is guaranteed, neither here at FM-Arena nor in any of your own tests that the result will always be the same and reliable. Here we try to find the best possible ways to beat ME, but you can make tweaks within the matches depending on the dynamics of your players and the weakness of your opponent.
In short take a tactic from here as a base and in some matches if you see that you are struggling make the necessary actions that you think will bring your opponent to his knees. The best solution is to buy better players. Expand
I want to further emphasize on this point. Good players can make any tactic work and in FM-Arena they use good players. The reasoning here as stated in FM-Arena is "Tactics regardless their formations/roles/duties are being tested with equally good players which ensures that the results aren't affected by the difference in the players' quality."
I want to provide a quick example to show this in action. I always play FM as DOF and I don't mess with tactics as that makes it easy for me. So I went and hired a very good assistant coach and I will tell you the reason behind that in a min (you can see his attributes and tendency in the attached screenshot).
I watched the formation he plays in Friendlies and replicated it in the tactic screen that depicts his tendency and the roles he plays the 4-2-3-1 formation. You can see that there is very minimal TI's and no PI's (I am sure the assistant manager will add some, but I don't know what he does). Watch Clayts video in YouTube if you have any questions around the process
So If you ask me, this formation will score around 45-50 with meta TI's and PI's and that would be a drop of 25% to 30% from the top tactic with a score of 65. But in-game that delta in my honest opinion and observation is around 10% are less. So my reasoning here is that,
1. Not all teams in your league are better than or equal to your team. So against those teams you can win despite having a tactical disadvantage but in FM-Arena you are playing against equal teams.
2. So you would then think the top team will beat you but that might not always be the case because they are playing 2 matches per week when compared to 1 match per week your team plays and hence they might not play their best players against your team or even if they do they have high fatigue which might make your team win against them. Again, not an issue in FM-Arena.
I can go on but the point is, FM-Arena testing league is tuned towards know how good a tactic is and I feel like any tactic above 45 should work better in-game if you have players with similar kind of attributes as they use in FM-Arena. So why do I think that, in the attachment, you can see that the tactic my assistant manager created lead Nottm to finish 6th in EPL and won a cup and this is the reason why I got a very good assistant coach to prove that its as good as we designing a tactics from ground up.
Just to prove that I didn't make these numbers up, you can see that I holiday'd for 97% of the save and the initial few days I had to play in order to identify the formation and roles my assistant manager uses.
I know it's a big article but the bottom line is, good players make any tactic work and as long as the tactic you create covers the pitch well, they would do good in-game. The game is designed to be easier than the FM-Arena test league in order to make players not lose faith in the game and continue playing the game.
Gracolas said: No offense to everyone putting the effort on building these pyton scripts. I can only imagine how many hours you've put into this, since im a dumbass in terms of programming.
But honest question: why would i use any of these methods, if i have genie scout doing exactly the same plus more features? Expand
I want to add my view here, I have been using python scripts for more than 8 months to play football manager and I have my code base than what @olimorris or Squirrel's has created. So the reason why I like it is
1. Mac: I play in Mac M1, so Genie scout is not an option and FMRTE requires me to by-pass security in place. So the only way I can do some analytics is to use excel file or Python and Python is much more comfortable.
Since I haven't used Genie Scout or FMRTE, take the below comments with a grain of salt and I might be wrong
2. Own Squad Evaluation: I use a script that quickly gives me the Min, Max, Mean and Median score for each positions in my squad with a click of button. This is what I use in order to plan my future recruits. Not sure if this is possible in other tools.
3. Moneyball: I know some might think it's cheating / making the game easy playing the game with attributes unmasked (Hey, its a single player game do what's fun for you right :P). For those, the only way you can do it is using python script. FM Stag released his latest stats for different positions and what those means. I have used in a python script to come up with a score for each player I can sort based on it. @olimorris : I know you said you have plans to go here, so maybe this can help you with it right (again this is just one way to do it). See the below query will provide a score of 0 if the Hdrs W/90 <=2.76 and 1 if its between 2.76 and 5.08 and if its more than 5.08 a score of 2. I do the same for all the different stats and then add em up to come up with a single score for my striker which then I will use for recruitment.
Super3 said: Do you change mentality depending on away game or tougher/easier game or do you always keep it balanced? Expand
Sorry for the late reply, but no. I use the tactics as pure plug and play and I don't use any OI's or change mentality.
Just to give you a bit of background, I play only DOF (Director of Football) saves and I let my assistant manager dictate the tactics as I find using any Knap or FM-Arena tactics makes the game very easy (if you already know most of the mechanics in the game)
Gracolas said: I also have this doubt: what should we do (tactic wise) if we are winning vs a superior team? and what if we are losing against a worst team? Expand
Hi @Gracolas : Please check this YouTube video as it resonates with a lot of things I believe is true in FM 24.
I do things differently when I release / tweak tactics in FM-Arena but in game, I play for ease of recruitment (common positions, no ML and MR :P) and simple instructions and this video encapsulates all the things I do while playing FM.
wow, a very well articulated pain point list. I haven't even played the game for more than a year, yet it resonates so much with me as I have spent like 3.5k hours in FM 23 and 0.5k hours in FM24 and its so sad that only a few features in the game work.
dzek said: That's a good question to discuss as I'm not sure. The only thing that comes to my mind right now is that the AI managers have some tactical/non tactical attributes that are mostly the same across all 5 but there are differences in a few others that probably(again I'm not 100% sure) affect the way each team plays regardless if they use the same formations or even the same players attributes.
Apart from the tactical attributes, tendencies of AI Manager play a big role (during the game). That is, which instructions they will give in the game, when they will give them and if they will give them. Will they instruct their players to play out from defense? Will they work ball into the box? Will they push higher up at some point in the game? And much more.. Expand
I get your point but I don't have enuf knowledge about test league setup to say one way or the other. I am sure the moderators will know more and that's why I brought up that question.
I would like to make an input here on a change to the Testing League that would probably help even more to minimize the "luck" factor.
There are 5 controlled teams and 5 AI teams. These teams all play each other and it is here that I would like to suggest since the league has this structure then it would be nice if each team played the same team in all fixtures until the end. I think that way the AI team would adapt even better to our tactics and I think that would reduce the "luck" factor.
*I'm leaving a picture of a reply given by Jack Joyce (SI dev) on how you can reduce statistical error(luck) within the game. What do you think?
It would be nice to have @Zippo's point of view here. Expand
Hi @dzek , In a nutshell, my understanding is that Teams A to E share identical attributes and current abilities (CA). Currently, lets say they are facing off against an AI team using a 4-2-3-1 formation. The question is: why might the statistical error vary if Team A faces the AI team 4-2-3-1 five times, as opposed to each of Teams A to E playing against the AI team 4-2-3-1 once?
Getting rid of their whole U21 and U18 squad, leaving only the First team squad who can play all positions and have 20s in the top 8 attributes as per FM Arena testing, but 1s everywhere else. Except the goalkeepers, I left them as they were.
The results were horrendous enough to not warrant continuing with these stats.
So whilst the game quite likely is Pace/Acc Manager, I don't quite think it's "Usain Bolt & Win".
What I mean to say is, don't focus only on those stats without hitting some kind of baseline in other stats. I'll see what I need to increase the other stats to, to start getting good results.
Edit: Tested it with increasing the 1s to 5s and the results were drastically different. Crazy.
Thanks for testing this and i agree with you conclusions right, we need a baseline value for other attributes before focusing on the important ones and you can read my thoughts in detail below
sponsorkindest said: Additionally, I have another suggestion @Zippo and @Droid , I don't believe that a player's performance changes linearly in correlation with attribute decreases or increases as my observation is that attributes within a range tend to have similar performance (like 11-13) and the drop off and the gain will be significant if its below 9 or above 15 respectively.
To ensure a comprehensive analysis covering the entire spectrum of attribute values present in the game (usually ranging from 7 to 17), I propose conducting the same testing with a -5 attribute variation. This adjustment would provide better understanding of player performance across different attribute levels. This change if upvotes by enough members in the community can be easily incorporated into the existing attribute testing table.
To ensure a comprehensive analysis covering the entire spectrum of attribute values present in the game (usually ranging from 7 to 17), I propose conducting the same testing with a -5 attribute variation. This adjustment would provide better understanding of player performance across different attribute levels. This change if upvotes by enough members in the community can be easily incorporated into the existing attribute testing table.
Yep, it’s just I feel like anticipation and dribbling importance got swapped between FM 23 and FM 24
lol, just for fun, you need a guy who can dribble fast into the goals line and you can get your striker to score 50 goals
https://fm-arena.com/thread/7359-424-quadrowave-x-4-att/
Read here - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5345-attributes-vs-tactics/
Also no result is guaranteed, neither here at FM-Arena nor in any of your own tests that the result will always be the same and reliable. Here we try to find the best possible ways to beat ME, but you can make tweaks within the matches depending on the dynamics of your players and the weakness of your opponent.
In short take a tactic from here as a base and in some matches if you see that you are struggling make the necessary actions that you think will bring your opponent to his knees. The best solution is to buy better players.
I want to further emphasize on this point. Good players can make any tactic work and in FM-Arena they use good players. The reasoning here as stated in FM-Arena is "Tactics regardless their formations/roles/duties are being tested with equally good players which ensures that the results aren't affected by the difference in the players' quality."
I want to provide a quick example to show this in action. I always play FM as DOF and I don't mess with tactics as that makes it easy for me. So I went and hired a very good assistant coach and I will tell you the reason behind that in a min (you can see his attributes and tendency in the attached screenshot).
I watched the formation he plays in Friendlies and replicated it in the tactic screen that depicts his tendency and the roles he plays the 4-2-3-1 formation. You can see that there is very minimal TI's and no PI's (I am sure the assistant manager will add some, but I don't know what he does). Watch Clayts video in YouTube if you have any questions around the process
So If you ask me, this formation will score around 45-50 with meta TI's and PI's and that would be a drop of 25% to 30% from the top tactic with a score of 65. But in-game that delta in my honest opinion and observation is around 10% are less. So my reasoning here is that,
1. Not all teams in your league are better than or equal to your team. So against those teams you can win despite having a tactical disadvantage but in FM-Arena you are playing against equal teams.
2. So you would then think the top team will beat you but that might not always be the case because they are playing 2 matches per week when compared to 1 match per week your team plays and hence they might not play their best players against your team or even if they do they have high fatigue which might make your team win against them. Again, not an issue in FM-Arena.
I can go on but the point is, FM-Arena testing league is tuned towards know how good a tactic is and I feel like any tactic above 45 should work better in-game if you have players with similar kind of attributes as they use in FM-Arena. So why do I think that, in the attachment, you can see that the tactic my assistant manager created lead Nottm to finish 6th in EPL and won a cup and this is the reason why I got a very good assistant coach to prove that its as good as we designing a tactics from ground up.
Just to prove that I didn't make these numbers up, you can see that I holiday'd for 97% of the save and the initial few days I had to play in order to identify the formation and roles my assistant manager uses.
I know it's a big article but the bottom line is, good players make any tactic work and as long as the tactic you create covers the pitch well, they would do good in-game. The game is designed to be easier than the FM-Arena test league in order to make players not lose faith in the game and continue playing the game.
But honest question: why would i use any of these methods, if i have genie scout doing exactly the same plus more features?
I want to add my view here, I have been using python scripts for more than 8 months to play football manager and I have my code base than what @olimorris or Squirrel's has created. So the reason why I like it is
1. Mac: I play in Mac M1, so Genie scout is not an option and FMRTE requires me to by-pass security in place. So the only way I can do some analytics is to use excel file or Python and Python is much more comfortable.
Since I haven't used Genie Scout or FMRTE, take the below comments with a grain of salt and I might be wrong
2. Own Squad Evaluation: I use a script that quickly gives me the Min, Max, Mean and Median score for each positions in my squad with a click of button. This is what I use in order to plan my future recruits. Not sure if this is possible in other tools.
3. Moneyball: I know some might think it's cheating / making the game easy playing the game with attributes unmasked (Hey, its a single player game do what's fun for you right :P). For those, the only way you can do it is using python script. FM Stag released his latest stats for different positions and what those means. I have used in a python script to come up with a score for each player I can sort based on it. @olimorris : I know you said you have plans to go here, so maybe this can help you with it right (again this is just one way to do it). See the below query will provide a score of 0 if the Hdrs W/90 <=2.76 and 1 if its between 2.76 and 5.08 and if its more than 5.08 a score of 2. I do the same for all the different stats and then add em up to come up with a single score for my striker which then I will use for recruitment.
def calculate_stat_striker(row):
conditions = {
'Hdrs W/90': [(5.08, 2), (2.76, 1)],
'Drb/90': [(3.05, 2), (1.17, 1)],
'NP-xG': [(0.5, 2), (0.35, 1)],
'ShT/90': [(1.57, 2), (1.09, 1)],
'Conv %': [(0.3, 2), (0.21, 1)]
}
score = sum(value for col, ranges in conditions.items() for threshold, value in ranges if row[col] > threshold)
return score
Sorry for the late reply, but no. I use the tactics as pure plug and play and I don't use any OI's or change mentality.
Just to give you a bit of background, I play only DOF (Director of Football) saves and I let my assistant manager dictate the tactics as I find using any Knap or FM-Arena tactics makes the game very easy (if you already know most of the mechanics in the game)
Hi @Gracolas : Please check this YouTube video as it resonates with a lot of things I believe is true in FM 24.
I do things differently when I release / tweak tactics in FM-Arena but in game, I play for ease of recruitment (common positions, no ML and MR :P) and simple instructions and this video encapsulates all the things I do while playing FM.
You can read it here - https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/579205-football-manager-2024-official-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=14241360
wow, a very well articulated pain point list. I haven't even played the game for more than a year, yet it resonates so much with me as I have spent like 3.5k hours in FM 23 and 0.5k hours in FM24 and its so sad that only a few features in the game work.
Apart from the tactical attributes, tendencies of AI Manager play a big role (during the game). That is, which instructions they will give in the game, when they will give them and if they will give them. Will they instruct their players to play out from defense? Will they work ball into the box? Will they push higher up at some point in the game? And much more..
I get your point but I don't have enuf knowledge about test league setup to say one way or the other. I am sure the moderators will know more and that's why I brought up that question.
I would like to make an input here on a change to the Testing League that would probably help even more to minimize the "luck" factor.
There are 5 controlled teams and 5 AI teams. These teams all play each other and it is here that I would like to suggest since the league has this structure then it would be nice if each team played the same team in all fixtures until the end. I think that way the AI team would adapt even better to our tactics and I think that would reduce the "luck" factor.
*I'm leaving a picture of a reply given by Jack Joyce (SI dev) on how you can reduce statistical error(luck) within the game.
What do you think?
It would be nice to have @Zippo's point of view here.
Hi @dzek , In a nutshell, my understanding is that Teams A to E share identical attributes and current abilities (CA). Currently, lets say they are facing off against an AI team using a 4-2-3-1 formation. The question is: why might the statistical error vary if Team A faces the AI team 4-2-3-1 five times, as opposed to each of Teams A to E playing against the AI team 4-2-3-1 once?