Sorry if this has been already answered, I thought the decision was to do attribute testing after December release, did something change? Just curious question, I don't think we need a re-run given the results are in line with FM23 but just wanted to understand the reasoning
So stupid, man here we are using ML rating, python code, excel sheet, genie scout and FMRTE to get the recruitment right but when in reality all you need a filter with Pace >= 16
I don’t think the end of the season one file was shared for FM 24, by default all players in testing league had around 13 pace in FM 23, so we are looking at a team that has around 18 pace right?
Also no result is guaranteed, neither here at FM-Arena nor in any of your own tests that the result will always be the same and reliable. Here we try to find the best possible ways to beat ME, but you can make tweaks within the matches depending on the dynamics of your players and the weakness of your opponent.
In short take a tactic from here as a base and in some matches if you see that you are struggling make the necessary actions that you think will bring your opponent to his knees. The best solution is to buy better players. Expand
I want to further emphasize on this point. Good players can make any tactic work and in FM-Arena they use good players. The reasoning here as stated in FM-Arena is "Tactics regardless their formations/roles/duties are being tested with equally good players which ensures that the results aren't affected by the difference in the players' quality."
I want to provide a quick example to show this in action. I always play FM as DOF and I don't mess with tactics as that makes it easy for me. So I went and hired a very good assistant coach and I will tell you the reason behind that in a min (you can see his attributes and tendency in the attached screenshot).
I watched the formation he plays in Friendlies and replicated it in the tactic screen that depicts his tendency and the roles he plays the 4-2-3-1 formation. You can see that there is very minimal TI's and no PI's (I am sure the assistant manager will add some, but I don't know what he does). Watch Clayts video in YouTube if you have any questions around the process
So If you ask me, this formation will score around 45-50 with meta TI's and PI's and that would be a drop of 25% to 30% from the top tactic with a score of 65. But in-game that delta in my honest opinion and observation is around 10% are less. So my reasoning here is that,
1. Not all teams in your league are better than or equal to your team. So against those teams you can win despite having a tactical disadvantage but in FM-Arena you are playing against equal teams.
2. So you would then think the top team will beat you but that might not always be the case because they are playing 2 matches per week when compared to 1 match per week your team plays and hence they might not play their best players against your team or even if they do they have high fatigue which might make your team win against them. Again, not an issue in FM-Arena.
I can go on but the point is, FM-Arena testing league is tuned towards know how good a tactic is and I feel like any tactic above 45 should work better in-game if you have players with similar kind of attributes as they use in FM-Arena. So why do I think that, in the attachment, you can see that the tactic my assistant manager created lead Nottm to finish 6th in EPL and won a cup and this is the reason why I got a very good assistant coach to prove that its as good as we designing a tactics from ground up.
Just to prove that I didn't make these numbers up, you can see that I holiday'd for 97% of the save and the initial few days I had to play in order to identify the formation and roles my assistant manager uses.
I know it's a big article but the bottom line is, good players make any tactic work and as long as the tactic you create covers the pitch well, they would do good in-game. The game is designed to be easier than the FM-Arena test league in order to make players not lose faith in the game and continue playing the game.
Gracolas said: No offense to everyone putting the effort on building these pyton scripts. I can only imagine how many hours you've put into this, since im a dumbass in terms of programming.
But honest question: why would i use any of these methods, if i have genie scout doing exactly the same plus more features? Expand
I want to add my view here, I have been using python scripts for more than 8 months to play football manager and I have my code base than what @olimorris or Squirrel's has created. So the reason why I like it is
1. Mac: I play in Mac M1, so Genie scout is not an option and FMRTE requires me to by-pass security in place. So the only way I can do some analytics is to use excel file or Python and Python is much more comfortable.
Since I haven't used Genie Scout or FMRTE, take the below comments with a grain of salt and I might be wrong
2. Own Squad Evaluation: I use a script that quickly gives me the Min, Max, Mean and Median score for each positions in my squad with a click of button. This is what I use in order to plan my future recruits. Not sure if this is possible in other tools.
3. Moneyball: I know some might think it's cheating / making the game easy playing the game with attributes unmasked (Hey, its a single player game do what's fun for you right :P). For those, the only way you can do it is using python script. FM Stag released his latest stats for different positions and what those means. I have used in a python script to come up with a score for each player I can sort based on it. @olimorris : I know you said you have plans to go here, so maybe this can help you with it right (again this is just one way to do it). See the below query will provide a score of 0 if the Hdrs W/90 <=2.76 and 1 if its between 2.76 and 5.08 and if its more than 5.08 a score of 2. I do the same for all the different stats and then add em up to come up with a single score for my striker which then I will use for recruitment.
Super3 said: Do you change mentality depending on away game or tougher/easier game or do you always keep it balanced? Expand
Sorry for the late reply, but no. I use the tactics as pure plug and play and I don't use any OI's or change mentality.
Just to give you a bit of background, I play only DOF (Director of Football) saves and I let my assistant manager dictate the tactics as I find using any Knap or FM-Arena tactics makes the game very easy (if you already know most of the mechanics in the game)
Gracolas said: I also have this doubt: what should we do (tactic wise) if we are winning vs a superior team? and what if we are losing against a worst team? Expand
Hi @Gracolas : Please check this YouTube video as it resonates with a lot of things I believe is true in FM 24.
I do things differently when I release / tweak tactics in FM-Arena but in game, I play for ease of recruitment (common positions, no ML and MR :P) and simple instructions and this video encapsulates all the things I do while playing FM.
wow, a very well articulated pain point list. I haven't even played the game for more than a year, yet it resonates so much with me as I have spent like 3.5k hours in FM 23 and 0.5k hours in FM24 and its so sad that only a few features in the game work.
dzek said: That's a good question to discuss as I'm not sure. The only thing that comes to my mind right now is that the AI managers have some tactical/non tactical attributes that are mostly the same across all 5 but there are differences in a few others that probably(again I'm not 100% sure) affect the way each team plays regardless if they use the same formations or even the same players attributes.
Apart from the tactical attributes, tendencies of AI Manager play a big role (during the game). That is, which instructions they will give in the game, when they will give them and if they will give them. Will they instruct their players to play out from defense? Will they work ball into the box? Will they push higher up at some point in the game? And much more.. Expand
I get your point but I don't have enuf knowledge about test league setup to say one way or the other. I am sure the moderators will know more and that's why I brought up that question.
I would like to make an input here on a change to the Testing League that would probably help even more to minimize the "luck" factor.
There are 5 controlled teams and 5 AI teams. These teams all play each other and it is here that I would like to suggest since the league has this structure then it would be nice if each team played the same team in all fixtures until the end. I think that way the AI team would adapt even better to our tactics and I think that would reduce the "luck" factor.
*I'm leaving a picture of a reply given by Jack Joyce (SI dev) on how you can reduce statistical error(luck) within the game. What do you think?
It would be nice to have @Zippo's point of view here. Expand
Hi @dzek , In a nutshell, my understanding is that Teams A to E share identical attributes and current abilities (CA). Currently, lets say they are facing off against an AI team using a 4-2-3-1 formation. The question is: why might the statistical error vary if Team A faces the AI team 4-2-3-1 five times, as opposed to each of Teams A to E playing against the AI team 4-2-3-1 once?
Ya sure, let me try that. My interpretation is, I use CWB only when I don't have wingers, so that they can have complete freedom in wing areas but I don't use them when I create tactics for FM-Arena as that role underperformance heavily in here but this might be a good test to see on what changed.
Maokai said: Love the tactic! What are your thoughts on using a DLP(Su) instead of the DM? I currently have a player that fits the DLP role a lot better. Expand
I found that to be a bit more leaky defensively. But give it a go if you want to try!
dzek said: @sponsorkindest so it is better with 'Run At Defense' at least for 3 runs only with 4 points difference. Expand
Ya looks that way, given we got 65 points (with pass into space and run and defence) and the points went down to 57 and 61 when one of them got removed. It makes me believe 424 QuadroWave X-4 might be a lucky run and 4k test will reveal the true numero #1. In case of 424 deformation II, small tweaks lead to small points changes and that's what I am basing my reasoning here.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/7359-424-quadrowave-x-4-att/
Read here - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5345-attributes-vs-tactics/
Also no result is guaranteed, neither here at FM-Arena nor in any of your own tests that the result will always be the same and reliable. Here we try to find the best possible ways to beat ME, but you can make tweaks within the matches depending on the dynamics of your players and the weakness of your opponent.
In short take a tactic from here as a base and in some matches if you see that you are struggling make the necessary actions that you think will bring your opponent to his knees. The best solution is to buy better players.
I want to further emphasize on this point. Good players can make any tactic work and in FM-Arena they use good players. The reasoning here as stated in FM-Arena is "Tactics regardless their formations/roles/duties are being tested with equally good players which ensures that the results aren't affected by the difference in the players' quality."
I want to provide a quick example to show this in action. I always play FM as DOF and I don't mess with tactics as that makes it easy for me. So I went and hired a very good assistant coach and I will tell you the reason behind that in a min (you can see his attributes and tendency in the attached screenshot).
I watched the formation he plays in Friendlies and replicated it in the tactic screen that depicts his tendency and the roles he plays the 4-2-3-1 formation. You can see that there is very minimal TI's and no PI's (I am sure the assistant manager will add some, but I don't know what he does). Watch Clayts video in YouTube if you have any questions around the process
So If you ask me, this formation will score around 45-50 with meta TI's and PI's and that would be a drop of 25% to 30% from the top tactic with a score of 65. But in-game that delta in my honest opinion and observation is around 10% are less. So my reasoning here is that,
1. Not all teams in your league are better than or equal to your team. So against those teams you can win despite having a tactical disadvantage but in FM-Arena you are playing against equal teams.
2. So you would then think the top team will beat you but that might not always be the case because they are playing 2 matches per week when compared to 1 match per week your team plays and hence they might not play their best players against your team or even if they do they have high fatigue which might make your team win against them. Again, not an issue in FM-Arena.
I can go on but the point is, FM-Arena testing league is tuned towards know how good a tactic is and I feel like any tactic above 45 should work better in-game if you have players with similar kind of attributes as they use in FM-Arena. So why do I think that, in the attachment, you can see that the tactic my assistant manager created lead Nottm to finish 6th in EPL and won a cup and this is the reason why I got a very good assistant coach to prove that its as good as we designing a tactics from ground up.
Just to prove that I didn't make these numbers up, you can see that I holiday'd for 97% of the save and the initial few days I had to play in order to identify the formation and roles my assistant manager uses.
I know it's a big article but the bottom line is, good players make any tactic work and as long as the tactic you create covers the pitch well, they would do good in-game. The game is designed to be easier than the FM-Arena test league in order to make players not lose faith in the game and continue playing the game.
But honest question: why would i use any of these methods, if i have genie scout doing exactly the same plus more features?
I want to add my view here, I have been using python scripts for more than 8 months to play football manager and I have my code base than what @olimorris or Squirrel's has created. So the reason why I like it is
1. Mac: I play in Mac M1, so Genie scout is not an option and FMRTE requires me to by-pass security in place. So the only way I can do some analytics is to use excel file or Python and Python is much more comfortable.
Since I haven't used Genie Scout or FMRTE, take the below comments with a grain of salt and I might be wrong
2. Own Squad Evaluation: I use a script that quickly gives me the Min, Max, Mean and Median score for each positions in my squad with a click of button. This is what I use in order to plan my future recruits. Not sure if this is possible in other tools.
3. Moneyball: I know some might think it's cheating / making the game easy playing the game with attributes unmasked (Hey, its a single player game do what's fun for you right :P). For those, the only way you can do it is using python script. FM Stag released his latest stats for different positions and what those means. I have used in a python script to come up with a score for each player I can sort based on it. @olimorris : I know you said you have plans to go here, so maybe this can help you with it right (again this is just one way to do it). See the below query will provide a score of 0 if the Hdrs W/90 <=2.76 and 1 if its between 2.76 and 5.08 and if its more than 5.08 a score of 2. I do the same for all the different stats and then add em up to come up with a single score for my striker which then I will use for recruitment.
def calculate_stat_striker(row):
conditions = {
'Hdrs W/90': [(5.08, 2), (2.76, 1)],
'Drb/90': [(3.05, 2), (1.17, 1)],
'NP-xG': [(0.5, 2), (0.35, 1)],
'ShT/90': [(1.57, 2), (1.09, 1)],
'Conv %': [(0.3, 2), (0.21, 1)]
}
score = sum(value for col, ranges in conditions.items() for threshold, value in ranges if row[col] > threshold)
return score
Sorry for the late reply, but no. I use the tactics as pure plug and play and I don't use any OI's or change mentality.
Just to give you a bit of background, I play only DOF (Director of Football) saves and I let my assistant manager dictate the tactics as I find using any Knap or FM-Arena tactics makes the game very easy (if you already know most of the mechanics in the game)
Hi @Gracolas : Please check this YouTube video as it resonates with a lot of things I believe is true in FM 24.
I do things differently when I release / tweak tactics in FM-Arena but in game, I play for ease of recruitment (common positions, no ML and MR :P) and simple instructions and this video encapsulates all the things I do while playing FM.
You can read it here - https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/579205-football-manager-2024-official-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=14241360
wow, a very well articulated pain point list. I haven't even played the game for more than a year, yet it resonates so much with me as I have spent like 3.5k hours in FM 23 and 0.5k hours in FM24 and its so sad that only a few features in the game work.
Apart from the tactical attributes, tendencies of AI Manager play a big role (during the game). That is, which instructions they will give in the game, when they will give them and if they will give them. Will they instruct their players to play out from defense? Will they work ball into the box? Will they push higher up at some point in the game? And much more..
I get your point but I don't have enuf knowledge about test league setup to say one way or the other. I am sure the moderators will know more and that's why I brought up that question.
I would like to make an input here on a change to the Testing League that would probably help even more to minimize the "luck" factor.
There are 5 controlled teams and 5 AI teams. These teams all play each other and it is here that I would like to suggest since the league has this structure then it would be nice if each team played the same team in all fixtures until the end. I think that way the AI team would adapt even better to our tactics and I think that would reduce the "luck" factor.
*I'm leaving a picture of a reply given by Jack Joyce (SI dev) on how you can reduce statistical error(luck) within the game.
What do you think?
It would be nice to have @Zippo's point of view here.
Hi @dzek , In a nutshell, my understanding is that Teams A to E share identical attributes and current abilities (CA). Currently, lets say they are facing off against an AI team using a 4-2-3-1 formation. The question is: why might the statistical error vary if Team A faces the AI team 4-2-3-1 five times, as opposed to each of Teams A to E playing against the AI team 4-2-3-1 once?
IWB to WB
I found that to be a bit more leaky defensively. But give it a go if you want to try!
I will soon submit a tactic in which I’m just changing the mentality from balanced to attacking. Let’s see how that goes.
Ya looks that way, given we got 65 points (with pass into space and run and defence) and the points went down to 57 and 61 when one of them got removed. It makes me believe 424 QuadroWave X-4 might be a lucky run and 4k test will reveal the true numero #1. In case of 424 deformation II, small tweaks lead to small points changes and that's what I am basing my reasoning here.